Nick Pope England Record

[Spijed]

You reckon Pep has got it all wrong then?

The fact is that last night we saw that Pope looks like a fish out of water trying to play out from the back and he will now move rapidly move down the pecking order as it’s obvious that the Pickford style goalies will be in vogue.

It shows that being good at saving shots is no longer the main requirement for a goalkeeper these days.

Crazy, but there you go.

[Stanbill05]

He hasn’t had a save to make in 3 games, his job is to keep the ball if possible and be efficient in his work to keep things calm at the back..Major tournaments might be different but I can understand why Nick Pope isn’t the ideal choice when there are few saves to make.

[Zlatan]

You reckon Pep has got it all wrong then?

In one word - Yes

A longer explanation will be off topic, but it essentially boils down to finance in club football where Pep can buy the best players and play how he wants, of course there is going to be a very small number of clubs who can buy talent and play in a particular way (the Pep way) and that means out from the back like City do. Other club teams will try to emulate this (mainly because its the way the media portray "The Pep Way" as being progressive and revolutionary - utter rubbish IMO), and fail (How did we score against Arsenal recently?) The Risk/Reward ratio for Pep is so clearly defined because he has the best talent and can take the risk - even if it messes up on occasion defensively (which it has), he can usually rely upon his wealth of attacking talent to score more than he concedes - its fashionable at the moment, but it doesn't make him right, just means he's rich (well his club is).

With the national team where there is a pool of talent and there's absolutely no way of buying Ronaldo or Messi to play in a particular type of way ("The Pep way"), and on this thread I have provided the stats that show that even Pickford is way off being able to play with his feet compared to Allison or Ederson, and his stats are much closer aligned to Pope's (granted it marginally better, but not to the extent the media will portray). You could argue that whoever is in goal for England will have quality defenders in front of them so should be able to play like City using "The Pep Way", but I would counter that City players are together week in week out to practice that and will have a large degree of "sixth sense" about where their team mates are for the tippy tappy stuff at the back - at the national level, we are not afforded that liberty and there wont be the same understanding in the defensive setup however well you prepare.

So my answer is Yes, Pep has got it all wrong if you are referring to a style of play for the national team, but it is clearly right for his club because he can finance his team accordingly and make them play how he wants (lets ask Joe Hart what he thinks eh...?)

[Newcastleclaret93]

I wonder when this idea that keepers should always play the ball short to a defender will get put where it belongs? It's a tactical mistake. Yes, sometimes it comes off and sometimes it doesn't get punished. How many times this season has a Premier League team conceded a goal that started out as the keeper passing out from the back?

I believe the Athletic actually did an assessment on playing out from the back and it was actually deemed to be one of the most successful tactics in the premier league for creating goals and winning games. I will try and find the article but it completely changed my opinion on playing out from the back. Yes it some times leads to conceding goals but a lot of the time it actually starts the attack by beating the press and creating space for counter attacks.

It is just part of the game developing.

[SalisburyClaret]

2 teams can play it out from the back -

Spain 2010
Man. City

Playing with the ball in a high risk area - when that risk offers a very small return, is plain stupid.

It might be trendy - but like many trends, it’s embarrassing when you look back on it

[Bigvince]

I believe the Athletic actually did an assessment on playing out from the back and it was actually deemed to be one of the most successful tactics in the premier league for creating goals and winning games. I will try and find the article but it completely changed my opinion on playing out from the back. Yes it some times leads to conceding goals but a lot of the time it actually starts the attack by beating the press and creating space for counter attacks.

It is just part of the game developing.

Playing out from the back can be successful if you have the players capable of doing so, unfortunately many managers insist on playing out from the back to their detriment. Norwich last year for example did, which largely contributed to their relegation. Fulham this year following the same blueprint are likely to go the same way. As would Burnley if we tried to play out from the back. Many teams have to find a different way of winning games!

[Newcastleclaret93]

Playing out from the back can be successful if you have the players capable of doing so, unfortunately many managers insist on playing out from the back to their detriment. Norwich last year for example did, which largely contributed to their relegation. Fulham this year following the same blueprint are likely to go the same way. As would Burnley if we tried to play out from the back. Many teams have to find a different way of winning games!

I think you are only looking at the extremes, practically every single club in the league plays out from to an extent.

I would argue Burnley were the only club that don’t. Nothing wrong with that at all it works for us.

It’s just unfortunate for Pope that England use this tactic, as a result I imagine that is his last appearance for England. The experiment just didn’t work.

[dsr]

I believe the Athletic actually did an assessment on playing out from the back and it was actually deemed to be one of the most successful tactics in the premier league for creating goals and winning games. I will try and find the article but it completely changed my opinion on playing out from the back. Yes it some times leads to conceding goals but a lot of the time it actually starts the attack by beating the press and creating space for counter attacks.

It is just part of the game developing.

Did they take circumstances into account? Playing out from the back when you have space is a lot more successful than playing out from the back under pressure. (Unless you're John Stones last night!)

Look at goal kicks taken short when the opponents have two men on the edge of the box. How many times is the team that takes a short sideways goal kick, still in control of the ball as they pass the half-way line? Very few. They either have to welly it, or else they lose the ball.

[tarkys_ears]

There's playing out from.the back and trying to LOOK like you're playing out from the back.

Most of the time England seem to do it to give Southgate a hard on and think he's a super manager, infact it often leads to trouble as it's being over and misused, as in the case last night.

You see it in the PL too but definitely more forced and unnecessary by the national team

[superdimitri]

I just hope Pope keeps the shirt for a game where he can actually shine making saves. Today he had little chance but did kind of flap at the ball.

It won't be easy for him because the England defence don't defend like we do. A lot of why keepers do well for us recently is to do with the way the team is set up to reduce the chance of a close shot at goal.

With England Pope won't have that predictability and will need to make a wider variety of saves, under more pressure and with more one on ones.

Southgate needs to tell him not to be afraid to kick it long or out of he needs too. It's worth it to have him in goal compared to other keepers because in those big games I really think he's capable of making important world class saves.

[Zlatan]

Southgate needs to tell him not to be afraid to kick it long or out of he needs too. It's worth it to have him in goal compared to other keepers because in those big games I really think he's capable of making important world class saves.

This ^^^

sums it up more succinctly than I ever could, thanks

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So there's nothing wrong with our system because it works, but we should cast admiring glances at other clubs that play out from the back even if it doesn't work, that's what I'm seeing on here...

Pope can kick, Pope can pass, but more importantly he instills confidence in a back four because they'll be well aware he's generally an excellent shot stopper who commands his area well.

It's a tired and boring argument on here and elsewhere by his detractors that he has poor distribution and/or isn't some sort of sweeper keeper.
If he was that bad he wouldn't be vying for the top spot for England, he'd be further down the pecking order.

That won't be his last appearance for England either, he's conceded one goal in 3 winning games, so to suggest it is just laughable.

[Bigvince]

I think you are only looking at the extremes, practically every single club in the league plays out from to an extent.

I would argue Burnley were the only club that don’t. Nothing wrong with that at all it works for us.

It’s just unfortunate for Pope that England use this tactic, as a result I imagine that is his last appearance for England. The experiment just didn’t work.

The experiment might well have worked, had we been playing stronger opposition that could have tested the strengths that Nick Pope undoubtably posseses

[ClaretLoup]

In one word - Yes

(How did we score against Arsenal recently?)

How did Arsenal score against Burnley? Their keeper rolled it out to their centre back and they worked it up to Aubemayang. It's not just City that can operate this style effectively.

- even if it messes up on occasion defensively (which it has), he can usually rely upon his wealth of attacking talent to score more than he concedes - its fashionable at the moment, but it doesn't make him right, just means he's rich (well his club is).

City have the best defensive record in the division, because they have really good players but also they keep possession as we have seen every time they spank Burnley. Burnley can't play like City because Mee, Pope and Tarkowski aren't good enough to do it.

However England can select players with the right technical ability, however occasionally there will be cock ups.

Southgate succeeded Big Fat Sam, and prior to that people moaned endlessly about our inability to keep the ball, to give him credit Southgate has transformed the national side's style of play based on the Pep template to one that has been relatively successful, i.e World Cup semis, Euros qualification, and beating Spain at home.

[Newcastleclaret93]

So there's nothing wrong with our system because it works, but we should cast admiring glances at other clubs that play out from the back even if it doesn't work, that's what I'm seeing on here...

Pope can kick, Pope can pass, but more importantly he instills confidence in a back four because they'll be well aware he's generally an excellent shot stopper who commands his area well.

It's a tired and boring argument on here and elsewhere by his detractors that he has poor distribution and/or isn't some sort of sweeper keeper.
If he was that bad he wouldn't be vying for the top spot for England, he'd be further down the pecking order.

That won't be his last appearance for England either, he's conceded one goal in 3 winning games, so to suggest it is just laughable.

To be fair DJ I don’t think anyone is saying they don’t want Pope or that they even want Burnley to change style.

You can appreciate other tactics in football.

I think I just see it differently, I think Southgate gave Pope a chance to shine and it think it failed quite miserably. He looked like a fish out of water and incredibly uncomfortable every time the ball went to his feet. If England continue to play out from the back then I can’t see Pope featuring again.

Game of opinions but from social media, Talksport etc... the general consensus is that Pope won’t work for England

[superdimitri]

So there's nothing wrong with our system because it works, but we should cast admiring glances at other clubs that play out from the back even if it doesn't work, that's what I'm seeing on here...

Pope can kick, Pope can pass, but more importantly he instills confidence in a back four because they'll be well aware he's generally an excellent shot stopper who commands his area well.

It's a tired and boring argument on here and elsewhere by his detractors that he has poor distribution and/or isn't some sort of sweeper keeper.
If he was that bad he wouldn't be vying for the top spot for England, he'd be further down the pecking order.

That won't be his last appearance for England either, he's conceded one goal in 3 winning games, so to suggest it is just laughable.

I do think he needs to develop partnerships with them though. At times (like today) he's involved in a mistake and the England defence are not used to having such a commenting keeper.

In all honesty I don't know why people keep making references to sweeper keepers. The role of a sweeper keeper has nothing to do with knocking it about like Ederson. It's about reading the game and coming off your line more. Pope is very good at it, despite being poor at kicking. Very much like an actual sweeper the role has nothing to do with passing, but instead reading the correct time to come forward and back.

[COBBLE]

What I noticed last night is that Maguire seems to ignore the keeper's space leading to at least one messy moments that showed Nick in a bad light.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

To be fair DJ I don’t think anyone is saying they don’t want Pope or that they even want Burnley to change style.

You can appreciate other tactics in football.

I think I just see it differently, I think Southgate gave Pope a chance to shine and it think it failed quite miserably. He looked like a fish out of water and incredibly uncomfortable every time the ball went to his feet. If England continue to play out from the back then I can’t see Pope featuring again.

Game of opinions but from social media, Talksport etc... the general consensus is that Pope won’t work for England

Weirdly there are people on Talksport who're adamant that Pope is the superior keeper between him and Pickford, so they do actually give a balanced view in that respect.
Same with social media, it's balanced if you open your news feeds up to those views and not just those that align with yours.

Pope will play for England again.
He's just been in the net for 3 straight wins, conceding 1 goal.
Yes the opposition wasn't the best in the world, but we've seen England keepers have shockers against poor opposition before, its was expected at one point.
He did his job and Southgate has good food for thought.
If we had to go into a tournament with Pope as 1st choice, it wouldn't be an issue for many people.

He will have a good reputation in the game for his performances, clean sheets etc and that will cause doubt in the minds of attackers.

We all watch Pickford play for Everton or England and expect him to throw one in at some point, the same with those on social media and no one is surprised when he does.
We don't have that opinion with Pope, neither do the masses on social media.

It's also telling that Pickford is now being dropped to the bench semi-regularly for Everton, by a world class manager.

[Zlatan]

City have the best defensive record in the division, because they have really good players but also they keep possession as we have seen every time they spank Burnley. Burnley can't play like City because Mee, Pope and Tarkowski aren't good enough to do it.

you've actually reinforced my viewpoint on this by stating that - I agree that Mee, Pope and Tarkowski for Burnley are not suited to playing out from the back like City, but dont limit it to just them, its the whole approach from the whole team - City are well oiled at doing it, other club teams struggle to match them at this, and the majority fail and it costs them more than they gain.

How many points did Arsenal get from us out of 6 this season? even with their goal against us played out from the back, which was rolled out much like Pope does for us frequently, so not really demonstrating tippy-tappy at the back is it...?

I think there is a clear difference between playing it out from the back (like we do often too lets not forget) and total possession football like City do where they feel comfortable passing freely across the back to retain the ball. The national team just wont be able to achieve that level of composure simply because they dont play together week in week out, so its clear to me that it is a folly to think they can do so.

[Paul Waine]

You reckon Pep has got it all wrong then?

The fact is that last night we saw that Pope looks like a fish out of water trying to play out from the back and he will now move rapidly move down the pecking order as it’s obvious that the Pickford style goalies will be in vogue.

Southgate very pointedly commented that Pope’s pass put Stones in some difficulty, so it’s not just pundits who have noted his deficiency in this aspect of the game.

I love Nick Pope I think he is the best goalie I have ever seen play for Burnley but let’s keep him away from the England set up from now on or risk destroying his confidence.

Hi Loup, I think I reckon that there's a lot more to passing the ball out from the back than most teams and coaches understand. Yes, given that Nick Pope has been in the England team these past 3 games, I've been paying a little more attention to what happens when the ball is at the keeper's feet (and he can't pick it up and use his hands). I've also included in my thoughts incidents in a number of the Premier League games I've seen over these past several months and not just those involving Burnley. Of course, Chris Wood's "off the hip" goal is a special example, but there are too many things that can go wrong when the keeper passes the ball to a defender. From what I've watched, there's probably nothing more goes wrong there than goes wrong anywhere else on the pitch, a misplaced pass, a poor first touch, the opposition pressing... but, the tariff for it going wrong around the penalty area, with most of the defending team further up field is so much more than it is in other areas of the pitch.

I wonder where Southgate thought Nick Pope should have passed the ball to Stones. Would it have been better 10 yards further up field, which would also have been a lot closer to the attacking players, so giving Stones less time? Or should Pope have picked out another defender rather than Stones?

Given that Stones fumbled his first touch, should he have played safe and passed back to Nick Pope (let's assume he didn't pass it short) and then Pope clear it to safety up field? But, everyone has already put doubts in the players' minds. (Note, players, not just Nick Pope and John Stones, let's say all the defenders).

Of course, we've got to admire the teams that can play out from the back successfully. Pep gets my "nod" for coaching City to do that, but then I think about which team John Stones plays for....and think again, maybe there is a bit more to it than we realise.

[dsr]

How did Arsenal score against Burnley? Their keeper rolled it out to their centre back and they worked it up to Aubemayang. It's not just City that can operate this style effectively.

Considering the money Arsenal have spent for a record of won 12 lost 11, it's a stretch to look at them as a guide to how to operate an effective style.

Wasn't it last season at the Emirates, or perhaps the season before, when their fans were booing every time they took a short goal kick because Burnley were getting the ball back every time? In the end they took one or two long kicks with ironic cheers. Playing it out from the back works if the players have enough space relative to their level of abiilty to do it. And if the manager accepts the option of getting rid is a valid option.

[Devils_Advocate]

At international football the best teams dont give the ball away. Also the tournaments are usually played in very hot and humid weather.

It is very hard work for a team to be chasing around after the ball whilst the other team passes it about and this is likely to have a baring on the result much more often than the exceptional disaster a keeper/defender has.

Its ok booting it down the pitch and losing possession to teams like San Marino and even Poland as you likely good enough to get it back quick.

Give possession away cheaply by kicking the ball long against the likes of Spain, Germany, Belgium, Brazil etc and you aint seeing it again for a bit and you're gonna be chasing some shadows.

This is why it is important for a keeper to be composed and good with his feet (even under pressure) so that he can help his team retain possession and make the opposition do the running.

Now you may still disagree with the importance of this tactic but at least understand what the tactics and logic is about because at the moment the level of discussion is child like with ridiculously exaggerated and unsubstantiated stuff being thrown at Southgate, Pickford, the media and any other manager (the experts who do it for a living) who decides this is the best way for his team to play.

All managers try to play to their strengths based on the players at their disposal, the caliber of player they will be up against and the nature of the competition. It is these factors that rightly lead Dyche to play the way he does and it is not that he is some sort of maverick and all the other managers are sheep.

Some of you are too emotionally involved to be able to debate opposing views to the extent that one poster who I have a lot of respect for had to log off cos he was so upset at what others were posting last night during the game

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Screenshot_20210401_104726_com.twitter.android.jpg (196.57 KiB) Viewed 1121 times

Pope plays it out to Stones who has plenty of time, options and space.

Stones panicked and lost the ball, ergo it's clearly Pope at fault for mistakingly assuming Stones would be able to do his job...

How silly of me for not realising this.

[SalisburyClaret]

Let’s not forget the dumb back pass from Rice from the half way line that set up the whole thing in the first place

[aggi]

I do think he needs to develop partnerships with them though. At times (like today) he's involved in a mistake and the England defence are not used to having such a commenting keeper.

In all honesty I don't know why people keep making references to sweeper keepers. The role of a sweeper keeper has nothing to do with knocking it about like Ederson. It's about reading the game and coming off your line more. Pope is very good at it, despite being poor at kicking. Very much like an actual sweeper the role has nothing to do with passing, but instead reading the correct time to come forward and back.

Yes, Pope is one of the leading sweeper keepers in the Premier League

Screenshot 2021-04-01 114438.jpg (40.99 KiB) Viewed 1067 times

[ClaretLoup]

Considering the money Arsenal have spent for a record of won 12 lost 11, it's a stretch to look at them as a guide to how to operate an effective style.

Arsenal are the current FA Cup holders and in the last 8 of the Europa League competition, I wouldn't mind that level of success at Burnley.

Playing it out from the back works if the players have enough space relative to their level of abiilty to do it. And if the manager accepts the option of getting rid is a valid option.

My original point was that playing out from the back can work for some teams and it does, it could work for England, but the lack of familiarity with each other at International level is a potential handicap as we saw last night. They also need a settled back four that picks itself and they don't seem to have that at the moment. However the dilemmas are, if England are to progress at a tournament they need to be able to keep the ball and that starts with distribution from the goalie and that England's problem is that the guy who is the best at doing this is Pickford, he is probably good enough to play outfield at a good level, but if the team progresses, they will need a good shot stopper as well, which is Pickford's weak point.

BTW Poland's keeper seemed to have their right winger as an outball, when under pressure.

[warksclaret]

To be honest I dont like watching him play for England, yet I never have any doubt when he plays for BFC. He is being asked to do something that does not come natural, playing for a club side that likes to hit it hard and far to the top two strikers,. Even with us his accuracy in kicking is well short of that of Schmichael, Pickford, Edison, Allison in particular but also many more keepers in the PL who can hit it first time to one of their players, 40 or 50 yards away. Fortunately for us he is one of the best at crosses and shot stopping in the PL, and has a great cool head and temperament

[CrosspoolClarets]

I think its premature to think Southgate will bin Pope after a couple of nervy kicks. He has watched him dozens of times, he knows his attributes, he’ll stay number two. Pope is capable with his feet but he isn’t Zidane. The whole point here is the daft mindset Southgate has them all in, where they feel they have to do something short even when the situation warrants getting rid. That goal sums it up.

Stones made a balls up, obviously he could have controlled the ball, turned upfield, and passed to either Walker or Phillips, but they were being pressed hard too. Obviously Nick could have passed it a bit firmer, but at the point he kicked it the Pole was about 50 yards behind Stones, it was Pope being pressed. Poland were then pressing hard behind Walker and Phillips too, so I think this panicked Stones. What he should have done was pass back to Pope to launch it long. That’s what you have to do at times when the press is superb. Southgate has instilled a mindset where they make bad decisions.

I have a problem with Maguire too. For Man Utd he makes loads of short, risky passes in his own box. City make very few - they try to pass out of the box straight away (we can see this on websites like the WhoScored chalkboard). I lost count of the times Maguire sold Pope short with a pass to put him under pressure on his left foot. Happened a lot in Albania.

England haven’t kept a clean sheet against decent opposition for a long, long time. I think we can see why. Something always goes wrong at the back.

[IanMcL]

Pope to Stones was a legitimate pass. Manchester City play much whicker and tighter passes, from the back, so no reason for Pope to think Stones could not cope. He actually had plenty of time.

Stones did what an undisciplined (away from Pep) Stones does. He dallied. Saw he was being closed down and took a poor touch, which pushed the ball out of his control and into danger.

Easier to pass back to Pope, who could have cleared long.

Fault for goal - Stones 100%

[jojomk1]

Teams play out from the back simply because it gives them more opportunities to retain the ball, before moving into attacking positions
Yes this can place the teams in a difficult situation if the opponents are "pressing", but you only have to look at the bulk of Premier League games to see that is the tactic employed by most of the top sides
Sides that play a different way are usually the teams from the bottom of the league and that is simply because it is recognised by the managers that their team skills, in general, do not suit this style
When Pope, under instructions, plays long balls up the pitch we lose possession of the ball far more often than we have a chance to retain it
England are supposed to have the most allround skillful players to adapt to this situation and it is what Southgate wants to play
Pope is an excellent keeper as far as shot stopping is concerned but is way behind the other main protagonists in ball control
When Pickford is fit he will start and I can't see much of an argument against that

[superdimitri]

The fact is Pope is, and should be a big part of the team and you have to play with his strengths and weaknesses if you want to be successful. A bit similar to how you want to play to Kane's strengths and weaknesses. The team was built around Pickford instead because for some reason Southgate didn't see he was a bad goalkeeper, so now the passy round the back thing doesn't work as well.

Nothing wrong with Pope doing it sometimes, but he also needs the freedom to whack it when he feels its too risky, and not be afraid of other players/managers complaining about it.

[aggi]

The thing is, Pickford isn't a bad keeper. He's a good keeper, Pope is a really good keeper.

However, Pickford brings other things to the table that Pope struggles with which, in Southgate's eyes, negates that difference.

The past few games have shown how infrequently the keeper is needed to make an amazing save compared to how often they need to receive the ball, keep possession and play it out

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Pope proved he could play it out.

The problem was the idiot in front of him who received the pass and then had a complete and utter brain fart.

[dsr]

Even the first half pass that got the commentators mocking wasn't really a bad pass. It was an excellent pinged pass to a man forty yards away. Unfortunately an England defender twenty yards away got in the way.

[jojomk1]

Even the first half pass that got the commentators mocking wasn't really a bad pass. It was an excellent pinged pass to a man forty yards away. Unfortunately an England defender twenty yards away got in the way.

It was a total misskick with his left peg as I'm sure you know

It almost knocked the defender (who was more likely 2 yards away) off his feet

[timshorts]

Pope is good at the quick throw out, which retains possession and generally has the opposition on the back foot. This playing out from the back tactic usually gives the other team loads of time to regroup. It doesn't matter if you can play through them like man city can. It does if you are playing with 7 defenders some of whom are dodgy on the floor.
I suspect that England's 3 games at the euros will be fun to watch at times this summer for all the wrong reasons. The 3 sides lined up to play them will already know which of the defenders to play the hard press on.

[dsr]

It was a total misskick with his left peg as I'm sure you know

It almost knocked the defender (who was more likely 2 yards away) off his feet

You're thinking of a different pass. I don't remember a first half incident where Maguire (no-one else would have been so badly in the way) was basically charging down a back pass to his own keeper. The one I'm thinking of was when Pope kicked from about the edge of his own goal area, perhaps just in front, and hit a defender just outside the penalty area and the ball bounced off to the right. They showed it from behind the goal and it was heading straight for an unmarked man in midfield.