Have the Vydra doubters

[Yorkshirelad]

Not sure if this as been covered before. But do you think maybe Sean has had his little piece of luck again. If Barnes had not got injured not sure he would have played Vydra, but he was forced into it and it as turned out quite well for him. Little bit like his hand was forced to give youth a chance in the form of Dwight and we all know what happened next.

UTC

[milkcrate_mosh]

I couldn't find a site that collates stats by starting lineups so just went through all the matches on here. Am certainly not necessarily suggesting we'd have scored more goals with Wood and Barnes if it weren't for injuries but suspect results would have been better. Looking at some stats someone else did on twitter back in October the run earlier in the season was a marked downturn on previous, their overall average (this was worked out back in October) is about 1.3 goals a game.

[Stevie Morgan]

Yeah, form and confidence not accounted for in stats. From a tactical perspective it just seems to me that we keep teams more honest with threat of some pace in behind, and this leads to it being easier for us to get the ball upfield (channel balls etc) and build from there.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The doubts people would probably have regards Vydra is scoring goals. Done little so far to dispel those thoughts as well as he has played lately.

If the Wolves result not been a win and Wood timed his run wrong to have a goal ruled out for offside, blazed one over the bar from about 6 yards and messed up a one on one when put clean through then the comments towards Wood would be very different to what they were to Vydra.

[claretcarrot93]

The doubts people would probably have regards Vydra is scoring goals. Done little so far to dispel those thoughts as well as he has played lately.

If the Wolves result not been a win and Wood timed his run wrong to have a goal ruled out for offside, blazed one over the bar from about 6 yards and messed up a one on one when put clean through then the comments towards Wood would be very different to what they were to Vydra.

Come on. Was a great ball by McNeil but he slightly delayed it and the blazed one over was a full stretch volley. For somebody who has a go at fans moaning at players. Glass houses and that

[claretonthecoast1882]

Come on. Was a great ball by McNeil but he slightly delayed it and the blazed one over was a full stretch volley. For somebody who has a go at fans moaning at players. Glass houses and that

There is the difference though, I don't moan at Vydra. I like him just offering some balance as some on here refuse to treat all players with the same favouritism.

Not sure what your last comment means, there is a huge difference with highlighting someone on a forum who lives for a negative view of anything to do with the club and saying that Vydra gets an easier ride than most players on here. As above you have made an excuse for 2 of the misses, I doubt you would have been as quick to defend someone else.

A line once said that those who love to criticise can't cope with being criticised is so true on here.

[Zlatan]

The doubts people would probably have regards Vydra is scoring goals. Done little so far to dispel those thoughts as well as he has played lately.

If the Wolves result not been a win and Wood timed his run wrong to have a goal ruled out for offside, blazed one over the bar from about 6 yards and messed up a one on one when put clean through then the comments towards Wood would be very different to what they were to Vydra.

you cant criticise his composure and finishing when he scored that offside goal with the calmness and composure you'd want any Centre Forward to have - he didn't know he was offside and neither did the Wolves players and he scored it. The attempt that went over the bar, that was at full stretch and any of our forwards would have most likely done the same, and dont forget that he won the ball back in the first place for that attempt to happen. That said, it is his finishing that needs to be slightly better for him to be the "complete" CF - the rest of what he offers is superb IMO.

I think he needs a sports psychologist to be honest, he does everything absolutely right all the way up to the final touch to plant the ball in the net - and I think its apprehension in his head - similar to golfers who pull putts etc - he needs to "visualise" the ball going in the back of the net.

My only frustration with him (and it may be shared by Dyche) is that when a chance is missed he does appear to lose focus momentarily (lees so recently) and doesn't just get on with it - the arms go in the air and he looks skyward. I guarantee that will cost him a chance at some point, and if he can stop doing that and just get on with it that will help.

[claretonthecoast1882]

you cant criticise his composure and finishing when he scored that offside goal with the calmness and composure you'd want any Centre Forward to have - he didn't know he was offside and neither did the Wolves players and he scored it. The attempt that went over the bar, that was at full stretch and any of our forwards would have most likely done the same, and dont forget that he won the ball back in the first place for that attempt to happen. That said, it is his finishing that needs to be slightly better for him to be the "complete" CF - the rest of what he offers is superb IMO.

I think he needs a sports psychologist to be honest, he does everything absolutely right all the way up to the final touch to plant the ball in the net - and I think its apprehension in his head - similar to golfers who pull putts etc - he needs to "visualise" the ball going in the back of the net.

My only frustration with him (and it may be shared by Dyche) is that when a chance is missed he does appear to lose focus momentarily (lees so recently) and doesn't just get on with it - the arms go in the air and he looks skyward. I guarantee that will cost him a chance at some point, and if he can stop doing that and just get on with it that will help.

Again, offering an excuse (call it a reason if you prefer) to why it didn't end in a goal. 2 replies both glossed over the 1 on 1 when allowing Boly to get back to him and explained why he didn't score the other 2.

Just to be clear though, when I listed those chances I am not slating Vydra (again I like him) for any of them, my point was that had it been Wood, then some of those who are very quick to defend Vydra wouldn't be as quick with Wood. Wood was labelled the worst striker in the Prem when he doesn't score, didn't see people rushing to his defence.

The one point I made about Vydra still stands, if someone had doubts about him scoring goals at this level he hasn't changed that. He is on a career best 3 at this level, hopefully he can score a few more in the next few games.

[Zlatan]

Again, offering an excuse (call it a reason if you prefer) to why it didn't end in a goal. 2 replies both glossed over the 1 on 1 when allowing Boly to get back to him and explained why he didn't score the other 2.

the 1 v 1 with Boly - I personally thought Boly fouled him. In slow motion you can see Boly's foot hit Vydra's foot before Boly's foot strikes the ball. At the time it was a fantastic clearance by Boly (and I'm not for one minute saying I wanted a pen from it) but Boly did stop Vydra's foot from reaching the ball and you cant criticise Vydra for that either.

I get what you mean about if the criticism had been aimed at Wood though, and often it is in similar circumstances.

We do need to be careful not to attribute criticism from some fans to be the thoughts of other fans, which is what often happens on this forum and that itself creates a self-perpetuating circular whataboutery event.

[dibraidio]

When Vydra plays we are far better to watch. His movement and pace trouble defenders in a different way to the physical presence of Barnes and Wood, he creates space and time for his team mates, holds the ball up well and brings others in to play. His pace allows him to lose defenders and create opportunities.

We scored 10 goals in the 21 games this season where Barnes played a part. With Vydra in the team we've scored 10 in his last 5 starts.
They may both have scored 3 but Vydra makes a massive difference to our style and attacking potential.

[Dark Cloud]

When Vydra plays we are far better to watch. His movement and pace trouble defenders in a different way to the physical presence of Barnes and Wood, he creates space and time for his team mates, holds the ball up well and brings others in to play. His pace allows him to lose defenders and create opportunities.

We scored 10 goals in the 21 games this season where Barnes played a part. With Vydra in the team we've scored 10 in his last 5 starts.
They may both have scored 3 but Vydra makes a massive difference to our style and attacking potential.

I completely agree with this. I actually wanted Vydra to be given his chance and thought there was a PL player in there, even if he was a 15/20 minute sub, but I did ultimately have my doubts about his ability to score enough goals. What I didn't see coming was how he would (apparently) totally change the way we played and the attacking threat we pose and ultimately it's not about how many goals he bags or misses, but about the fact that he's bringing out the best in Wood and we look a far better footballing team.

[Down_Rover]

Its all about opinions isn't it, so here is mine.

Of our 4 strikers Vydra is the most pleasing on the eye and offers the greatest variety in attack, giving us the chance to be more on the front foot. But his presence demands that our midfielders have to play further forward and leave our defence exposed. Without a dedicated defensive CDM this causes issues and, in my view, contributed to defeats to Southampton and Newcastle. To be a regular starter he needs to score more goals or, particularly against the top8, we will be under resources defensively. This is why Dyche did not play him v Manure but brought him back v wolves with a perception that with Vydra in the team we could outplay Wolves. We were never going to outplay Manure.

In other words it is horses for courses.

Going forward Wood is head and shoulders our best attacker and arguably the best we have had for decades. He has displayed this when playing with all of the other three strikers and when up top alone

Jayrod has been woeful this season but last season offered everything Vydra does but with more physicality and with more aerial talent. Had his form not nose dived this year he would have been a regular starter, offered an alternative to the battering ram approach and scored more goals than Vydra

Barnes is unique. He bullies defenders mentally and physically in a way that Jayrod and Vydra cannot. the fact that he has scored regularly against all of the top 6 is testament to his mental strength and ability to deliver on the big stage. His ability to win free kicks is a massive plus, it winds up defenders and relieves pressure. Whether these strengths are still with him is yet to be proved but he deserves a chance to show us when he is fit

In summary we are blessed with one top drawer forward and three very good strikers (when fit and in form). Based on above the Barnes and Jayrod, when in form, will be invariably above Vydra in the pecking order when we are playing the better teams. Vydra's chance will come against teams that we feel we can outplay and are not looking to grind out a result.

We are lucky to have possibly the best 4th choice striker in the PL

[Dark Cloud]

I definitely think the "horses for courses" comment is very relevant and I touched on it on here yesterday. SD has a tendency to simply pick his team and his formation regardless of who were are playing, but he should do more of choosing players and formations based on who the opposition are and how much pressure we are likely to be put under. At Utd the other week he did exactly that and it wasn't far off working. It really shouldn't be that barring injuries our starting XI is the most predictable in the country and we definitely should be more creative with it. I agree with much of the above and that means a role for Vydra and our other strikers.

[fatboy47]

Vydra, for me, takes us from unwatchable to watchable.

[claretcarrot93]

There is the difference though, I don't moan at Vydra. I like him just offering some balance as some on here refuse to treat all players with the same favouritism.

Not sure what your last comment means, there is a huge difference with highlighting someone on a forum who lives for a negative view of anything to do with the club and saying that Vydra gets an easier ride than most players on here. As above you have made an excuse for 2 of the misses, I doubt you would have been as quick to defend someone else.

A line once said that those who love to criticise can't cope with being criticised is so true on here.

I have never had a go at Wood he is clearly our best striker. Fair enough with rest of it

[KateR]

I never doubted him as a player, but like others I doubted I would ever see him get a run of games and show what he can do. I think his movement and pulling defenders/players away allows others like Wood more space/time to do what they are good at.

For me, there is more to come and I can see him improving his goals to minutes played, if he is allowed to continue as a starter, which I think is helpful to him in terms of no just minutes played to score but in his confidence level.

The best thing for me, is that he has obviously upped parts of his game such that SD now trusts him to start, the energy level, tracking back and general work rate when playing now to previously has improved and he adds pace to the attack, rather than just total brute force that we previously had. I have always liked Barnes but lately, when playing he seems to be going down all the time for nothing and complaining and its refreshing to me to see Vydra not doing that kind of thing.

[warksclaret]

Until around 6 games ago I did not rate him at all, but he has proved me wrong. He has been outstanding in the last two months or so. I have a feeling SD did not believe in him for quite a while. He was never keen on giving him game time for the first couple of seasons. Suspect Vydra's worth has increased

[Boss Hogg]

With 2 up top we know the best striker partnership for next season is Vydra and Wood (unless it’s changed for tactical purposes). Vydra offers so much more to the teams petformance even if he’s not scoring. Sometimes he takes a touch too many but he’s probably just trying so hard. Very pleasing on the eye. He always had the skill and at one time looked a little lightweight but looks a very good player now. Offers something that the other strikers don’t and we are giving defenders more to think about. We don’t look predictable now offensively.

[KRBFC]

Not sure if this as been covered before. But do you think maybe Sean has had his little piece of luck again. If Barnes had not got injured not sure he would have played Vydra, but he was forced into it and it as turned out quite well for him. Little bit like his hand was forced to give youth a chance in the form of Dwight and we all know what happened next.

UTC

possibly last season where I think Vydra saved his Burnley career, I think after his little spell last season I think Dyche fancied him more ever since.

[Rileybobs]

When Vydra plays we are far better to watch. His movement and pace trouble defenders in a different way to the physical presence of Barnes and Wood, he creates space and time for his team mates, holds the ball up well and brings others in to play. His pace allows him to lose defenders and create opportunities.

We scored 10 goals in the 21 games this season where Barnes played a part. With Vydra in the team we've scored 10 in his last 5 starts.
They may both have scored 3 but Vydra makes a massive difference to our style and attacking potential.

I don’t buy into this. Our upturn in form is predominantly down to the attitude rather than personnel. Dyche had a shift of mindset at half time in our home game against Villa and performances have generally been very positive since, despite obviously having some disappointing results along the way.

That’s not to say that Vydra hasn’t played a key role in this period because clearly he has - and he’s now a first choice starter on merit. But I don’t think our results or performances would have been hugely different had Barnes been partnering Wood. After all, we’ve had some shocking performances with Vydra in the line up and some excellent ones with Barnes in.

[Stevie Morgan]

I don’t buy into this. Our upturn in form is predominantly down to the attitude rather than personnel. Dyche had a shift of mindset at half time in our home game against Villa and performances have generally been very positive since, despite obviously having some disappointing results along the way.

That’s not to say that Vydra hasn’t played a key role in this period because clearly he has - and he’s now a first choice starter on merit. But I don’t think our results or performances would have been hugely different had Barnes been partnering Wood. After all, we’ve had some shocking performances with Vydra in the line up and some excellent ones with Barnes in.

These stats from earlier in the thread are pretty compelling IMO:

The three main partnerships this season have been Wood/Rodriguez, Wood/Vydra and Wood Barnes.

Of these the highest goals per game is Wood/Vydra 1.38, with Wood/Rod coming close at 1.3, Wood/Barnes is way back at 0.42.

[Rileybobs]

These stats from earlier in the thread are pretty compelling IMO:

The three main partnerships this season have been Wood/Rodriguez, Wood/Vydra and Wood Barnes.

Of these the highest goals per game is Wood/Vydra 1.38, with Wood/Rod coming close at 1.3, Wood/Barnes is way back at 0.42.

I don’t think those stats are compelling. Unless you think that Vydra and Rodriguez actually contribute one goal per game more than Barnes does. If you cast your mind back to some of the performances during our lean spell we were atrocious. The stark contrast is not down to one player. It’s an entire team playing with positivity and confidence.

I’m sure if I looked I could find a sequence of games where our goals per game was much better with Barnes than Vydra.

To add some perspective, until Sunday our best result and performance of the season was against Palace where we started with Jay and Barnes and convincingly won 3-0.

[Stevie Morgan]

I don’t think those stats are compelling. Unless you think that Vydra and Rodriguez actually contribute one goal per game more than Barnes does. If you cast your mind back to some of the performances during our lean spell we were atrocious. The stark contrast is not down to one player. It’s an entire team playing with positivity and confidence.

I’m sure if I looked I could find a sequence of games where our goals per game was much better with Barnes than Vydra.

To add some perspective, until Sunday our best result and performance of the season was against Palace where we started with Jay and Barnes and convincingly won 3-0.

Over 3 x as many goals per game. Even accounting for poor form of team as a whole that is significant. Fact is that team selection may have played a part in that poor form as well. Over the course of the season these stats.

[boatshed bill]

I think most of the goalscoring stats are skewed by how well Dwight McNeil is playing at the time.
I also think DM plays much better when Charlie Taylor is at left back.

[Rileybobs]

Over 3 x as many goals per game. Even accounting for poor form of team as a whole that is significant. Fact is that team selection may have played a part in that poor form as well. Over the course of the season these stats.

What would you make of the statistic that we’ve only won 4 games out of Vydra’s 23 appearances this season?

For context we’ve won 5 of Barnes’ 18.

This isn’t me saying that Barnes is better by the way, I’m simply pointing out that our recent performances are much more down to overall team performance and mentality. Looking back at the fixtures our form really turned around at home to Leicester. Vydra started the 3 games before that against Fulham, West Brom and Spurs which were all incredibly substandard performances

[Stevie Morgan]

What would you make of the statistic that we’ve only won 4 games out of Vydra’s 23 appearances this season?

For context we’ve won 5 of Barnes’ 18.

This isn’t me saying that Barnes is better by the way, I’m simply pointing out that our recent performances are much more down to overall team performance and mentality. Looking back at the fixtures our form really turned around at home to Leicester. Vydra started the 3 games before that against Fulham, West Brom and Spurs which were all incredibly substandard performances

Well, firstly I'd be interested how that breaks down in terms of starts. Secondly, my focus is more on our style/goals than points - we are possibly less expansive and less likely to concede when Barnes plays.

[steve1264b]

Well, firstly I'd be interested how that breaks down in terms of starts. Secondly, my focus is more on our style/goals than points - we are possibly less expansive and less likely to concede when Barnes plays.

So points dont matter?

22 appearances 3 goals.

Even a blind man on a galloping horse can see that needs to improve.

Not to say he doesnt have somethng but even he would agree his goalscoring record has to improve.

[Stevie Morgan]

So points dont matter?

22 appearances 3 goals.

Even a blind man on a galloping horse can see that needs to improve.

Not to say he doesnt have somethng but even he would agree his goalscoring record has to improve.

Now I didn't say that did I? Stats earlier up reflect favourably in points respect also.

[MACCA]

Probably not, the same posters who disliked Vydra were probably the ones who didnt think we played hoof ball and Barnes didn't fall over way too often stopping the flow, or losing possession in the process.

The football fans could see he was a good footballer with a lot of great attributes, and were stressing how much he needed, or deserved a run in the side with Wood who is our best striker.
I've no doubt that given a full season a long side Wood Vydra would also get double figures, or very close to it.

He does offer a lot more than goals though, which probably allows Wood to be closer to the goal as defences cannot hold as high line.

Their partnership is very much in the Vokes and Ings mould.
Long may their good form continue, itll only get stronger the more they work together.

[Down_Rover]

I think most of the goalscoring stats are skewed by how well Dwight McNeil is playing at the time.
I also think DM plays much better when Charlie Taylor is at left back.

I think you will find that McNeil plays better when Cork is in the team

[boatshed bill]

I think you will find that McNeil plays better when Cork is in the team

That could be said of the whole team