Green energy

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DCWat
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Green energy

Post by DCWat » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:29 pm

I saw, a few weeks ago, that there were plans to phase out gas boilers over the next five years (seems ambitious).

I’ve looked into heat pumps, solar and electric heating / water systems as our combi is in need of replacement, but none of the alternatives seem to be adequate replacements.

I’d question the idea of a five year phasing out plan, unless there is an alternative that’s going to work for everyone needing to change their boiler. I’m yet to see it, if there is something out there.

Is there a genuinely viable, practical and cost effective alternative that will provide year round heating and hot water?

ClaretTony
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Re: Green energy

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:32 pm

Get a new boiler

Stevie Morgan
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Re: Green energy

Post by Stevie Morgan » Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:49 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:29 pm
I saw, a few weeks ago, that there were plans to phase out gas boilers over the next five years (seems ambitious).

I’ve looked into heat pumps, solar and electric heating / water systems as our combi is in need of replacement, but none of the alternatives seem to be adequate replacements.

I’d question the idea of a five year phasing out plan, unless there is an alternative that’s going to work for everyone needing to change their boiler. I’m yet to see it, if there is something out there.

Is there a genuinely viable, practical and cost effective alternative that will provide year round heating and hot water?
It would help if government committed to an effective incentive programme to kick start the market and reduce initial costs of heat pumps etc. The scheme they did have was a disaster and hasn't been replaced. Heat pumps are effective but there are limited installers out there and not much consumer confidence because its something people aren't as familiar with.

DCWat
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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:01 pm

I’d read that they don’t, on their own at least, provide sufficient energy for both heat and hot water in winter. Not sure if that’s correct or not?

I could just get a boiler Tony, but I don’t want to get something that bay be replaced by a greener alternative. I’d much rather go down the green route if there’s a good option out there.

A new boiler would be a bit more efficient but it’s still churning through gas.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Quickenthetempo » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:06 pm

I applied on the Government's green grant but nobody has responded since the initial email to say they have received my application.

That was 14 months ago

dougcollins
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Re: Green energy

Post by dougcollins » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:06 pm

Welcome to world of lukewarm showers.

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Re: Green energy

Post by gawthorpe_view » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:14 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:06 pm
Welcome to world of lukewarm showers.
Marketed (spun) as safe hot water.

Stevie Morgan
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Re: Green energy

Post by Stevie Morgan » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:21 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:01 pm
I’d read that they don’t, on their own at least, provide sufficient energy for both heat and hot water in winter. Not sure if that’s correct or not?

I could just get a boiler Tony, but I don’t want to get something that bay be replaced by a greener alternative. I’d much rather go down the green route if there’s a good option out there.

A new boiler would be a bit more efficient but it’s still churning through gas.
They should if they are planned and installed properly, but then confidence in suppliers to do that is low at present. They are more prevalent in colder countries than ours. It is an emerging market which will need help and time to mature.

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Re: Green energy

Post by FCBurnley » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:22 pm

We have a Rinnai water heater. These are Japanese and are fantastically reliable. Not sure if you have them in the UK but worth checking on their website. Just had our serviced (13 years old ) and told it will last for at least 30 years.

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Re: Green energy

Post by bf2k » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:37 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:29 pm
I saw, a few weeks ago, that there were plans to phase out gas boilers over the next five years (seems ambitious).

I’ve looked into heat pumps, solar and electric heating / water systems as our combi is in need of replacement, but none of the alternatives seem to be adequate replacements.

I’d question the idea of a five year phasing out plan, unless there is an alternative that’s going to work for everyone needing to change their boiler. I’m yet to see it, if there is something out there.

Is there a genuinely viable, practical and cost effective alternative that will provide year round heating and hot water?
There is a new boiler technology on the market that uses Natural Gas but without burning it. They take the hydrogen out of the nat gas supply and burn this. The boiler, once lit, is self powering and can even produce enough electrical power for medium domestic use. Viessman are one manufacturer but I'm sure there are others. Problem is they are still using fossil fuels, albeit not burning it so cleaner but it's still using a depleting resource. Burning hydrogen also creates Nitrous Oxide (NOx) which can be harmful in concentrated quantities.

To have pure green energy at the minute you would need a few sources. Hydrogen gas, electrical and wind in my opinion.

We've been challenged from 2 of our biggest customers to remove the use of fossil fuel for producing a heat source. To replace the gas burners on our machine we're looking at around 5 Mega Watt of electrical power per line (and there is usually 3 lines per plant). That's a phenomenal amount of electrical power needed just to replace gas! It's not viable...in my opinion.

CharlieinNewMexico
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Re: Green energy

Post by CharlieinNewMexico » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:57 pm

My neighbor has an electric one powered by the solar cells on his roof. Would this count?

dsr
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Re: Green energy

Post by dsr » Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:04 pm

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:57 pm
My neighbor has an electric one powered by the solar cells on his roof. Would this count?
Probably, but I suspect solar panels in New Mexico produce more power than solar panels in Burnley. Especially in winter.
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Re: Green energy

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:24 pm

We had an air source heat pump in the house we moved in to. It's an old, stone house with high ceilings. I'm sure the system helps save the planet and Greta would approve. But much as I'm on board with all that, one winter of having your kids cold in their bedrooms and it came out for a proper fossil fuel burning system.

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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:10 pm

Cheers for the replies.

So it does appear that it’s likely a mixture of options to achieve what a combi boiler can.

These initiatives are great on face value but dig scratch the surface and there aren’t really any viable solutions, certainly not to the masses.

There’s going to be some gargantuan infrastructure requirements for charging cars, heating homes and the myriad of other things needed for us to be properly ‘green’.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Stevie Morgan » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:24 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:10 pm
Cheers for the replies.

So it does appear that it’s likely a mixture of options to achieve what a combi boiler can.

These initiatives are great on face value but dig scratch the surface and there aren’t really any viable solutions, certainly not to the masses.

There’s going to be some gargantuan infrastructure requirements for charging cars, heating homes and the myriad of other things needed for us to be properly ‘green’.
Yes - though the penny doesn't seem to have dropped yet with the powers that be.
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Re: Green energy

Post by bf2k » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:31 pm

DCWat wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:10 pm
Cheers for the replies.

So it does appear that it’s likely a mixture of options to achieve what a combi boiler can.

These initiatives are great on face value but dig scratch the surface and there aren’t really any viable solutions, certainly not to the masses.

There’s going to be some gargantuan infrastructure requirements for charging cars, heating homes and the myriad of other things needed for us to be properly ‘green’.
Understatement. I’ve been involved in a few meetings about the UK producing the batteries for electric cars (currently manufactured in China!). The infrastructure is coming but wow what a massive job this is. A company called Gridserve seen to be a major player in this.

I forgot to address your ground source heat pump opinion. These are very expensive and expensive to maintain. Commercially they are viable but domestically possibly not

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Re: Green energy

Post by IanMcL » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:13 am

I have an sir source heat pump....you need a lot of outside space for all the crap!

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Re: Green energy

Post by Bfcboyo » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:02 am

IanMcL wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:13 am
I have an sir source heat pump....you need a lot of outside space for all the crap!
Nothing you couldn't afford buddy.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Murger » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:38 am

Everything Green is just a con. Until countries like China, India and the US get their houses in order, what we do is irrelevant.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Hipper » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:21 am

DCWat wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:29 pm
I saw, a few weeks ago, that there were plans to phase out gas boilers over the next five years (seems ambitious).

I’ve looked into heat pumps, solar and electric heating / water systems as our combi is in need of replacement, but none of the alternatives seem to be adequate replacements.

I’d question the idea of a five year phasing out plan, unless there is an alternative that’s going to work for everyone needing to change their boiler. I’m yet to see it, if there is something out there.

Is there a genuinely viable, practical and cost effective alternative that will provide year round heating and hot water?
Can you please tell me where you saw these plans to phase out gas boilers? All I've seen is this:

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/boilers ... boiler-ban

In my flats someone has just had a combi boiler and central heating system installed with a government grant (from the now ended Green Homes Grant).

I've been investigating this whole matter for my domestic situation and it is all very confusing. In my flat, new building works are going to remove the chimneys so those very few people who still use gas fires have been told they will be replaced with electric (at our freeholder's expense). I'm semi OK with this although my electric running cost are four times that of gas. There are flueless gas fires with a catalytic converter that require a vent in the wall but the freeholder won't allow that.

There seem to be two options with air source heat pumps: an external box that looks similar to an air conditioning unit, and something that looks a bit bigger then an immersion heater with small external vents to bring in air. What they do though is heat water so you need a water based central heating system to start with.

I would not think it reasonable to end the use of gas boilers in existing buildings in such a short time without a grant system and good alternative solutions (even though it is supposed to be a climate emergency it is not being treated like that). For new builds it would make sense.

In my case my only practical option is something electric.

There is by the way so called Green Gas which I currently get supplied by Ecotricity:

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/green-gas

Frankly I'm not convinced by this.

DCWat
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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:56 am

Hipper wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:21 am
Can you please tell me where you saw these plans to phase out gas boilers? All I've seen is this:

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/boilers ... boiler-ban

In my flats someone has just had a combi boiler and central heating system installed with a government grant (from the now ended Green Homes Grant).

I've been investigating this whole matter for my domestic situation and it is all very confusing. In my flat, new building works are going to remove the chimneys so those very few people who still use gas fires have been told they will be replaced with electric (at our freeholder's expense). I'm semi OK with this although my electric running cost are four times that of gas. There are flueless gas fires with a catalytic converter that require a vent in the wall but the freeholder won't allow that.

There seem to be two options with air source heat pumps: an external box that looks similar to an air conditioning unit, and something that looks a bit bigger then an immersion heater with small external vents to bring in air. What they do though is heat water so you need a water based central heating system to start with.

I would not think it reasonable to end the use of gas boilers in existing buildings in such a short time without a grant system and good alternative solutions (even though it is supposed to be a climate emergency it is not being treated like that). For new builds it would make sense.

In my case my only practical option is something electric.

There is by the way so called Green Gas which I currently get supplied by Ecotricity:

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/green-gas

Frankly I'm not convinced by this.
I think it was on a news article or current affairs type programme, over the last week or so. I’ve no link to anything, unfortunately.

It certainly wasn’t anything official but hearing it piqued my interest.

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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:58 am

Murger wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:38 am
Everything Green is just a con. Until countries like China, India and the US get their houses in order, what we do is irrelevant.
The USA have announced significant spending and roll backs on the nonsense policies of Trump.

If every country thought like you do, there would never be any change - sometimes change has to be lead.
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DCWat
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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:02 am

bf2k wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:31 pm
Understatement. I’ve been involved in a few meetings about the UK producing the batteries for electric cars (currently manufactured in China!). The infrastructure is coming but wow what a massive job this is. A company called Gridserve seen to be a major player in this.

I forgot to address your ground source heat pump opinion. These are very expensive and expensive to maintain. Commercially they are viable but domestically possibly not
How the hell people will charge if they have limited on street parking, live on main roads or a block of flats etc. I don’t know.

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Re: Green energy

Post by bf2k » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:44 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:02 am
How the hell people will charge if they have limited on street parking, live on main roads or a block of flats etc. I don’t know.
Exactly. The notion of electric being the main fuel source for vehicles is pie in the sky at the minute. They don't have the range nor the infrastructure at present. I can just see a load of dodgy outdoor plugs being rigged up and a load of law suits for tripping injuries :D

However, it's part of my job to be positive about renewables and look to the future so I'm not officially following the party line :shock:
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DCWat
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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:48 pm

We’ll end up with cars like trolley buses!!

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Re: Green energy

Post by Bosscat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:59 pm

bf2k wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:44 pm
I can just see a load of dodgy outdoor plugs being rigged up and a load of law suits for tripping injuries :D
Well that should keep Pushpinpussy in work for the forseeable then if his Drink/Drug driver opportunities dry up 😉
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Murger
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Re: Green energy

Post by Murger » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:01 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:58 am
The USA have announced significant spending and roll backs on the nonsense policies of Trump.

If every country thought like you do, there would never be any change - sometimes change has to be lead.
I noticed you chose to mention the US and not the other 2. Why is that? Is it because the Chinese are currently building 100 more power stations?
There is no point in what we do if the Chinese just carry on as they are.

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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:39 pm

Murger wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:01 pm
I noticed you chose to mention the US and not the other 2. Why is that? Is it because the Chinese are currently building 100 more power stations?
There is no point in what we do if the Chinese just carry on as they are.
Actually, whilst the Chinese are building power stations, there is a plan to go carbon neutral by 2060.

The point stands - countries shouldn’t sit back and wait for others.
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Stevie Morgan
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Re: Green energy

Post by Stevie Morgan » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:50 pm

Murger wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:01 pm
I noticed you chose to mention the US and not the other 2. Why is that? Is it because the Chinese are currently building 100 more power stations?
There is no point in what we do if the Chinese just carry on as they are.
We don't have a strong position to encourage them to expedite action if we're doing nothing ourselves.

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Re: Green energy

Post by ChrisG » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:05 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:02 am
How the hell people will charge if they have limited on street parking, live on main roads or a block of flats etc. I don’t know.
I know a lad who has a Tesla. He parks somewhere in Manchester for work, costs him £7 a day, but he can charge for free. Full charge cost is usually circa £12 he reckons, so he's on a right number.

Plenty of infrastructure going in the ground in the cities, and most resi and office schemes I'm seeing at minute are putting in charging points as part of their planning conditions.

DCWat
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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:12 pm

ChrisG wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:05 pm
I know a lad who has a Tesla. He parks somewhere in Manchester for work, costs him £7 a day, but he can charge for free. Full charge cost is usually circa £12 he reckons, so he's on a right number.

Plenty of infrastructure going in the ground in the cities, and most resi and office schemes I'm seeing at minute are putting in charging points as part of their planning conditions.
It’s the areas outside of cities that might prove to be more difficult. Plenty park on / by pavements - how will these charge without cables across the path?

It’d be possible to bury cables but then an already monumental task becomes even bigger!!

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Re: Green energy

Post by ChrisG » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:18 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:12 pm
It’s the areas outside of cities that might prove to be more difficult. Plenty park on / by pavements - how will these charge without cables across the path?

It’d be possible to bury cables but then an already monumental task becomes even bigger!!
I think the point is charging will take place when people are at work, or out shopping for example, as opposed to overnight at home which will negate the need for everyone to charge at home. Get the charging points in the car parks.

As the technology improves, they will be able to get a decent charge in 30 minutes, so park up, plug in, nip to shops etc and it's fully juiced when you get back.

DCWat
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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:28 pm

ChrisG wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:18 pm
I think the point is charging will take place when people are at work, or out shopping for example, as opposed to overnight at home which will negate the need for everyone to charge at home. Get the charging points in the car parks.

As the technology improves, they will be able to get a decent charge in 30 minutes, so park up, plug in, nip to shops etc and it's fully juiced when you get back.
Which is fine if it’s the shops where you’re going to. If you’re a heavy motorway user - cars, vans, lorries. Thirty minute charges are not practical.

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Re: Green energy

Post by ChrisG » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:32 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:28 pm
Which is fine if it’s the shops where you’re going to. If you’re a heavy motorway user - cars, vans, lorries. Thirty minute charges are not practical.
Tesla range is 330 miles, this is only going to get better. Realistically who is driving 300 miles without having a decent break? That's 5 hours at average 60 mph. By that point 15 minutes will probably give you 150 miles, and you can grab a coffee, comfort break etc.

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Re: Green energy

Post by KateR » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:39 pm

I moved from Oil & Gas business late 2019 and took on roles to assist companies with the transition to renewable energy ad to decarbonize existing assets that put large amounts of carbon to the atmosphere.

I have learned a lot in that time, with an awful lot more to learn, but some results of what I have been working in are in the hydrogen space such as:

https://www.hvacinformed.com/news/hydro ... 54254.html

we have converted a municipality from natural gas heating to hydrogen, there are another bunch of municipalities waiting to follow.
This is from 2020 and the project is in full implementation now: The basis for the implementation of the plan is the Nijstad-Oost demonstration project in Hoogeveen with 100 new homes. The municipality of Hoogeveen, together with the consortium parties involved, will now take the steps to realise the plans: the construction of the hydrogen network and the connection of 100 new homes in Nijstad-Oost. This will be followed by the conversion of more than 400 homes in the existing Erflanden district.
=========================================================================================
This year involved with a team regarding producing hydrogen for transportation in California, sold a 10 year agreement to Shell & Itawani (Large Japanese gas company) This hydrogen will be produced from waste that would have otherwise ended up in landfills causing methane to the atmosphere, methane is some 23 times worse than CO2. This plant is being designed and constructed in California and will be the first of its kind, first hydrogen production April 2023, Shell and Itawani between them are building 90 hydrogen fueling stations in California. I believe that hydrogen fuel cell driven vehicles will be the future, not electric and see electric as a stepping stone, it's going to take a long time as the infrastructure needs building out but it's starting. We are in discussions with over ten more to be built, in Europe and also in China. If interested the link is very good for showing differences in vehicle drives pictorially:

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do ... -cars-work

this is just a snap shot of what I've been working on
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dsr
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Re: Green energy

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:45 pm

ChrisG wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:32 pm
Tesla range is 330 miles, this is only going to get better. Realistically who is driving 300 miles without having a decent break? That's 5 hours at average 60 mph. By that point 15 minutes will probably give you 150 miles, and you can grab a coffee, comfort break etc.
Not on a wet day with wipers and heaters and lights on, I'll bet.

Anyway. it's academic. As technology stands at present, electric cars are not practical for everyone to use. Technology will surely improve, as it will have to if electric cars are to be more than a rich man's toy.

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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:08 pm

KateR wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:39 pm
I moved from Oil & Gas business late 2019 and took on roles to assist companies with the transition to renewable energy ad to decarbonize existing assets that put large amounts of carbon to the atmosphere.

I have learned a lot in that time, with an awful lot more to learn, but some results of what I have been working in are in the hydrogen space such as:

https://www.hvacinformed.com/news/hydro ... 54254.html

we have converted a municipality from natural gas heating to hydrogen, there are another bunch of municipalities waiting to follow.
This is from 2020 and the project is in full implementation now: The basis for the implementation of the plan is the Nijstad-Oost demonstration project in Hoogeveen with 100 new homes. The municipality of Hoogeveen, together with the consortium parties involved, will now take the steps to realise the plans: the construction of the hydrogen network and the connection of 100 new homes in Nijstad-Oost. This will be followed by the conversion of more than 400 homes in the existing Erflanden district.
=========================================================================================
This year involved with a team regarding producing hydrogen for transportation in California, sold a 10 year agreement to Shell & Itawani (Large Japanese gas company) This hydrogen will be produced from waste that would have otherwise ended up in landfills causing methane to the atmosphere, methane is some 23 times worse than CO2. This plant is being designed and constructed in California and will be the first of its kind, first hydrogen production April 2023, Shell and Itawani between them are building 90 hydrogen fueling stations in California. I believe that hydrogen fuel cell driven vehicles will be the future, not electric and see electric as a stepping stone, it's going to take a long time as the infrastructure needs building out but it's starting. We are in discussions with over ten more to be built, in Europe and also in China. If interested the link is very good for showing differences in vehicle drives pictorially:

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do ... -cars-work

this is just a snap shot of what I've been working on
Thanks for that Kate.

I’d read some years ago about hydrogen being the ultimate power solution for transport - meaning that the electric car boom (if it could even be called that) could actually be short lived.

There was a programme on the BBC recently that visited a house in one of the Scandinavian countries that was run entirely on Hydrogen although the equipment was far bigger than would be feasible in most homes.

That and your post was the first I’ve seen mentioned of hydrogen for quite some time. It does sound to be a brilliant solution, if it can be created and harnessed easily.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Hipper » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:31 pm

KateR wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:39 pm
I moved from Oil & Gas business late 2019 and took on roles to assist companies with the transition to renewable energy ad to decarbonize existing assets that put large amounts of carbon to the atmosphere.

I have learned a lot in that time, with an awful lot more to learn, but some results of what I have been working in are in the hydrogen space such as:

https://www.hvacinformed.com/news/hydro ... 54254.html

we have converted a municipality from natural gas heating to hydrogen, there are another bunch of municipalities waiting to follow.
This is from 2020 and the project is in full implementation now: The basis for the implementation of the plan is the Nijstad-Oost demonstration project in Hoogeveen with 100 new homes. The municipality of Hoogeveen, together with the consortium parties involved, will now take the steps to realise the plans: the construction of the hydrogen network and the connection of 100 new homes in Nijstad-Oost. This will be followed by the conversion of more than 400 homes in the existing Erflanden district.
=========================================================================================
This year involved with a team regarding producing hydrogen for transportation in California, sold a 10 year agreement to Shell & Itawani (Large Japanese gas company) This hydrogen will be produced from waste that would have otherwise ended up in landfills causing methane to the atmosphere, methane is some 23 times worse than CO2. This plant is being designed and constructed in California and will be the first of its kind, first hydrogen production April 2023, Shell and Itawani between them are building 90 hydrogen fueling stations in California. I believe that hydrogen fuel cell driven vehicles will be the future, not electric and see electric as a stepping stone, it's going to take a long time as the infrastructure needs building out but it's starting. We are in discussions with over ten more to be built, in Europe and also in China. If interested the link is very good for showing differences in vehicle drives pictorially:

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do ... -cars-work

this is just a snap shot of what I've been working on
Interesting stuff! I read this:

https://www.options-skills.co.uk/2021/0 ... -uk-homes/

It says hydrogen is generated by 'gas reforming'. Although it doesn't say so here all I can find is that hydrogen gas is made by reforming natural gas (which includes methane) but CO2 is one of the results and it is also requires energy input.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h ... -reforming

Does the Hogeveen experiment use the existing gas infrastructure? Presumably the fears we have of hydrogen from the airship disasters have been alleviated?

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Re: Green energy

Post by KateR » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:37 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:08 pm
Thanks for that Kate.

I’d read some years ago about hydrogen being the ultimate power solution for transport - meaning that the electric car boom (if it could even be called that) could actually be short lived.

There was a programme on the BBC recently that visited a house in one of the Scandinavian countries that was run entirely on Hydrogen although the equipment was far bigger than would be feasible in most homes.

That and your post was the first I’ve seen mentioned of hydrogen for quite some time. It does sound to be a brilliant solution, if it can be created and harnessed easily.
Hydrogen has been around almost forever, strange fact is that it's them most abundant element on earth but there is none of it free, so get it you have to manufacture it, refineries and ammonia plants for example have been producing it in large numbers but this is considered gray hydrogen and not good for the environment as it involves a lot of carbon. Hydrogen is made up through a colour coded system, green being what you really want, this is only produced from electrolysis where the electricity used is from renewable, solar/wind especially, however pink hydrogen has recently been added which would be good as it is produced with electricity from nuclear. The W2H2 (Waste to Hydrogen) plant we are designing building in California will also be green and can operate 24 hours a day yearly but solar/wind are intermittent whereas pink is also 24 hours a day.

Hydrogen will never solve the global warming on it's own but it will definitely help and I think is the future for transport, for example ships/trains very heavy vehicles can not run off batteries but can on hydrogen.

I really like the picture below which helps to see the actual change we are now living through and can be compared against the previous energy changes, this is going to happen 100%. Clearly shows a long way to go and at present no way we can meet the 1.5C from the Paris accord so I think things will accelerate or we are in for some rough times this decade. Just a question of how we embrace it, the days of the ICE are numbered, although I still drive one, I tested an electric that hubby wanted to buy but had problems getting in and out of it, lol, old age is a bitch as hubby says.
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Re: Green energy

Post by KateR » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:54 pm

Hipper wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:31 pm
Interesting stuff! I read this:

https://www.options-skills.co.uk/2021/0 ... -uk-homes/

It says hydrogen is generated by 'gas reforming'. Although it doesn't say so here all I can find is that hydrogen gas is made by reforming natural gas (which includes methane) but CO2 is one of the results and it is also requires energy input.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/h ... -reforming

Does the Hogeveen experiment use the existing gas infrastructure? Presumably the fears we have of hydrogen from the airship disasters have been alleviated?
Hogeveen will be green hydrogen from electrolysis and replace the existing natural gas plant, from this year for the future municipalities I'm proposing to change the electrolysis hydrogen to the W2H2 we are building in California, however many still see this as "a first of its kind" and therefore want proof before committing.

Vast majority of hydrogen is produced from steam reforming and used in hydrotreaters and ammonia plants, as noted before this is gray hydrogen and not considered good for the environment. One company I am working with has developed a system to extract the CO2, if this is employed in the gray hydrogen production it becomes blue hydrogen, it's relatively easy to extract the CO2 but difficult to do anything with it. This usually involves storage somewhere, reinjecting into salt caverns and depleted oil fields is growing but still in its infancy.

I am working in a team for developing a hydrogen facility in the Port of Rotterdam which will produce a small amount of CO2, we are talking with the large agricultural companies about piping/trucking it to them to use in there greenhouses where they keep the interior CO2 saturated.

One factor to remember that is driving the change is that governments are getting more aggressive with companies that cause CO2 or equivalent to be released through increasing taxation penalties and incentive payments where they can be proven to reduce. This is worked for example into the business calculations and ROI making it more attractive to produce green hydrogen as subsidies are available in many countries, however the US is different from Europe for example, and even then additional penalties/incentives are added from various companies over and above those employed by Europe. Netherlands for example is a good place to do business if its green, but the UK has done more than the Netherlands for example in making things "greener", which surprised me, but you can all see the drive from the present government.
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Re: Green energy

Post by dougcollins » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:15 pm

It's a good job Hydrogen isn't at all dangerous.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Stevie Morgan » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 pm

dsr wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:45 pm
Not on a wet day with wipers and heaters and lights on, I'll bet.

Anyway. it's academic. As technology stands at present, electric cars are not practical for everyone to use. Technology will surely improve, as it will have to if electric cars are to be more than a rich man's toy.
Already more than a rich man's toy. They are already practical for many people. Overall purchase and running costs comparable and in many cases cheaper than ICE cars over period of ownership.

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Re: Green energy

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:31 pm

Stevie Morgan wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:09 pm
Already more than a rich man's toy. They are already practical for many people. Overall purchase and running costs comparable and in many cases cheaper than ICE cars over period of ownership.
OK, a rich man's practical mode of transport if you like. I dare say the overall purchase and running costs are comparable with a very expensive petrol car, but not with what I would call a normal car. What's a second hand electric hatchback cost to buy and run for say 10k miles per year?

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Re: Green energy

Post by DCWat » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:08 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:15 pm
It's a good job Hydrogen isn't at all dangerous.
Is it any more dangerous than a tank of highly flammable liquid?

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Re: Green energy

Post by KateR » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:28 pm

DCWat wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:08 pm
Is it any more dangerous than a tank of highly flammable liquid?
I had to do a presentation to Ecopetrol (Columbia's national oi company) on Hydrogen safety and was forced to learn, it is very safe but there are incidents of course but 99.99% human error, it is definitely far safer than filling your car with petrol.

Doug C along with millions/billions including the VP of Ecopetrol's new energy business have the Zeppelin complex but not to worry, hydrogen is so light it goes straight up, pooling petrol/gasolene far more dangerous THIS IS NOT TO SAY IT'S SUPPER SAFE but no more dangerous than thousands of other products that explode and burn, just needs to have a proper HSE case and because of the Zeppelin complex, governments and companies ensure this is very rigorous in terms of safety in design. It's the actual maintenance and changes people make during operation that cause the issues.

Also as an aside to previous, there is a drive to use normal street lighting into paid charging points for EV's so the charging issue can be solved relatively easy, it's the amount of electricity required that is a problem.

You need to comprehend that 3 Billion people in the world have no electricity or power of any kind and still burn biofuels which, needs to be addressed, these people and their governments are demanding improvements, you start to try and add power energy alone to that number and you can see how much more global warming is to come. Something else I'm working on in my spare time, micro grids, battery storage etc. Personally I find this fascinating and I hope to make a tiny difference in this area.
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Re: Green energy

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:47 pm

KateR wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:28 pm
Also as an aside to previous, there is a drive to use normal street lighting into paid charging points for EV's so the charging issue can be solved relatively easy, it's the amount of electricity required that is a problem.
I seem to remember a few years back they stopped running the Christmas lights in Colne off the street lights because the power wasn't strong enough. And now they're suggesting they might be able to charge 6 or 8 cars off a single street light? I can't see it.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Hipper » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:44 am

dsr wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:47 pm
I seem to remember a few years back they stopped running the Christmas lights in Colne off the street lights because the power wasn't strong enough. And now they're suggesting they might be able to charge 6 or 8 cars off a single street light? I can't see it.
With installation of low energy LED street lights that might change.

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Re: Green energy

Post by Hipper » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:48 am

Murger wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:38 am
Everything Green is just a con. Until countries like China, India and the US get their houses in order, what we do is irrelevant.
Think about this. If you buy an item made in China you are getting something where the greenhouse gases involved will have been emitted in China (along with the transport effects to get to you). If you don't buy that product, Chinese emissions are lowered.

In other words, you can do something about Chinese greenhouse gas emissions (if you really want to).

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Re: Green energy

Post by clarethomer » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:58 am

dsr wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:31 pm
OK, a rich man's practical mode of transport if you like. I dare say the overall purchase and running costs are comparable with a very expensive petrol car, but not with what I would call a normal car. What's a second hand electric hatchback cost to buy and run for say 10k miles per year?
I know someone who has just bought an 8 year old Nissan Leaf. It got it for under £5k and battery health was good.

His 10K miles will cost him 5p per mile on a standard electricity tariff . So is that £500 a year. This could be as cheap as a third of this with the right tarrif.

I suspect a similar aged petrol/diesel would cost you about £1500 for that distance.

No road tax, less servicing costs too. He will have paid for his car in under 3.5 years on the money they are saving on fuel alone.

Rich man game indeed
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Re: Green energy

Post by clarethomer » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:02 am

:D
dsr wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:47 pm
I seem to remember a few years back they stopped running the Christmas lights in Colne off the street lights because the power wasn't strong enough. And now they're suggesting they might be able to charge 6 or 8 cars off a single street light? I can't see it.
The amount of electricity isn’t a problem and this is another well spun myth which has no foundation of truth. In fact charging at home is done overnight and the fact that national grid even say there isn’t any issue either.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/jo ... les-busted
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