Southgate masterplan

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KRBFC
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Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:01 pm

Don't we have an easier passage in the next round if we finish 2nd in the group?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Winstonswhite » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:04 pm

No

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:05 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:04 pm
No
Don't we avoid Portugal/Germany/France if we finish 2nd?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by BurnleyFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:06 pm

We’ve got to get out of the group first.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by minnieclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:07 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:05 pm
Don't we avoid Portugal/Germany/France if we finish 2nd?
Yes. Somebody pointed out the other day we would then play them in the following round.
I’m just going to check where finishing third will take us.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:07 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:06 pm
We’ve got to get out of the group first.
we're already out of it with 4 pts

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:08 pm

minnieclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:07 pm
Yes. Somebody pointed out the other day we would then play them in the following round.
I’m just going to check where finishing third will take us.
If we finish 2nd, who do we play?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by summitclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:10 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:06 pm
We’ve got to get out of the group first.
We need to avoid playing France, Germany or Portugal in the last 16. I have not checked, but 4 points should be enough to get one of the 4 third places.
Last edited by summitclaret on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by BurnleyFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:10 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:07 pm
we're already out of it with 4 pts
Does it go on results against one another, i.e. if Croatia pump Scotland and Czech Republic beat us then we still qualify, regardless of goal difference?

Edit: just read about the 4 third places.
Last edited by BurnleyFC on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:11 pm

"Play **** lads because I don't fancy us against a good team"

I mean yeah, it could happen.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by minnieclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:11 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:08 pm
If we finish 2nd, who do we play?
2nd=2nd GE(Spain,Sweden,Slovakia)
3rd=after sorting final positions, first in F,E,B or C

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:13 pm

minnieclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:11 pm
2nd=2nd GE(Spain,Sweden,Slovakia)
3rd=after sorting final positions, first in F,E,B or C
So if we finish 2nd we'll probably play Sweden. 1st will be Germany/Portugal.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:13 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:10 pm
Does it go on results against one another, i.e. if Croatia pump Scotland and Czech Republic beat us then we still qualify, regardless of goal difference?

Edit: just read about the 4 third places.
Portugal won the Euros last time without winning a group game, they drew all 3 :lol:

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by minnieclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:15 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:13 pm
Portugal won the Euros last time without winning a group game, they drew all 3 :lol:
Italy won the World Cup in Spain ‘82 after 3 group draws. After that they were magnificent.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by PremierLeagueClass » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:19 pm

He pulled the same stunt in the World Cup and it got us to the semis, creating the illusion we’d had a great tournament and he was the nations hero. Now everyone is waking up to the fact we lost 3 games and were average at best.

He’s done an excellent job of keeping himself in a role he doesn’t remotely deserve and isn’t remotely capable of performing. He’s a PR man for the FA.
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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:20 pm

minnieclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:15 pm
Italy won the World Cup in Spain ‘82 after 3 group draws. After that they were magnificent.
Portugal only beat Wales in 90 minutes in the entire tournament last time, beat Poland on penalties and won 2 games in ET after the 3 group draws :lol:

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by boatshed bill » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:22 pm

It's all set up for a pre-negotiated draw with Czech Republic, a nice rest for the players and a slightly easier 2nd phase for us. Southgate's tactics are fine ;)

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by kentonclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:37 pm

Don't forget this is a very young team.

If it does slip your mind rest assured Gareth will remind you at every given opportunity. ;)
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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Winstonswhite » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:41 pm

Finish 2nd, play Portugal or France in the last 16

Finish top play either of them in the quarters. No real difference.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by JohnDearyMe » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm

We were awful during the group stages of Italia 90 if that's any consolation

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by boatshed bill » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 pm

JohnDearyMe wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm
We were awful during the group stages of Italia 90 if that's any consolation
I don't know why people get their expectations up.
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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Spiral » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 pm

I don't buy the whole "we have to play the best teams at some point" argument, because it ignores the effect that momentum has in tournament football. If we absolutely have to play the Germans, I'd rather do it on the back of winning a knockout game than doing it straight out of the groups. Doesn't excuse tonight's w@nk performance, mind, but it's still true.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:51 pm

JohnDearyMe wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm
We were awful during the group stages of Italia 90 if that's any consolation
We weren't exactly great against Belgium or Cameroon either.
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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:55 pm

Winstonswhite wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:41 pm
Finish 2nd, play Portugal or France in the last 16

Finish top play either of them in the quarters. No real difference.
There is a real difference lol like a real real difference
Knockout football is about avoiding the big sides until later into the tournament, you want a favorable draw, build momentum then head into a big semi final against one of the big sides. There's a huge difference between playing Sweden in the first knockout round and playing France/Portugal

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:56 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:22 pm
It's all set up for a pre-negotiated draw with Czech Republic, a nice rest for the players and a slightly easier 2nd phase for us. Southgate's tactics are fine ;)
Exactly, waiting to peak, slowly plodding along in 2nd gear through the group stages while maintaining freshness. I'd rather peak late than early ;)

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Hibsclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:56 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:51 pm
We weren't exactly great against Belgium or Cameroon either.
Absolutely. We were very lucky against Cameroon that’s for sure

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:57 pm

Spiral wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 pm
I don't buy the whole "we have to play the best teams at some point" argument, because it ignores the effect that momentum has in tournament football. If we absolutely have to play the Germans, I'd rather do it on the back of winning a knockout game than doing it straight out of the groups. Doesn't excuse tonight's w@nk performance, mind, but it's still true.
Trying to manipulate the group position for a favourable draw can't be helpful either though as, like you say, momentum is important. I'd rather win the group convincingly, be full of confidence taking on whoever the draw gives us.
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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Hedontplayforyou » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:57 pm

This tit couldn’t plan a tea party

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:03 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:57 pm
Trying to manipulate the group position for a favourable draw can't be helpful either though as, like you say, momentum is important. I'd rather win the group convincingly, be full of confidence taking on whoever the draw gives us.
I'd rather us plod through the group in 2nd gear and play Sweden in the first knockout round instead of smoking the group and playing France/Portugal. Peak late not early, the group stages in competitions are generally tedious, just about getting through with minimal effort.

Put it this way, I'm glad we played in 2nd gear against Scotland in a group games instead of a knockout round. Job done

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Goalposts » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:10 pm

Southgate isn’t intelligent enough to have a master plan end of thread

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Spiral » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:12 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:57 pm
Trying to manipulate the group position for a favourable draw can't be helpful either though as, like you say, momentum is important. I'd rather win the group convincingly, be full of confidence taking on whoever the draw gives us.
I don't buy KRBFC's possibly tongue-in-cheek idea of a Southgate masterplan, and nobody serious is advocating group manipulation, but I'm contesting the idea that playing a high ranked team in the round of 16 is the same thing as playing that same team in the final. It's not.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:13 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:03 pm
I'd rather us plod through the group in 2nd gear and play Sweden in the first knockout round instead of smoking the group and playing France/Portugal. Peak late not early, the group stages in competitions are generally tedious, just about getting through with minimal effort.

Put it this way, I'm glad we played in 2nd gear against Scotland in a group games instead of a knockout round. Job done
If you can guarantee that we can up our game at a flick of a switch when it gets to the knockout rounds, that is fine.

I have little faith that this team is capable of that.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:13 pm
If you can guarantee that we can up our game at a flick of a switch when it gets to the knockout rounds, that is fine.

I have little faith that this team is capable of that.
I'd fancy us to raise our game enough to beat Sweden or Slovakia in a knockout game, as boring as we are.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pm

Spiral wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:12 pm
I don't buy KRBFC's possibly tongue-in-cheek idea of a Southgate masterplan, and nobody serious is advocating group manipulation, but I'm contesting the idea that playing a high ranked team in the round of 16 is the same thing as playing that same team in the final. It's not.
It doesn’t make a difference whatever stage you need to turn up.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:24 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pm
It doesn’t make a difference whatever stage you need to turn up.
You want the easiest route to the final, we had a really favorable draw in the WC. Sweden in the first knockout round or Portugal/France? you take Sweden and fancy your chances all day long.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by boatshed bill » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:26 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pm
I'd fancy us to raise our game enough to beat Sweden or Slovakia in a knockout game, as boring as we are.
On penalties ;)

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:26 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pm
I'd fancy us to raise our game enough to beat Sweden or Slovakia in a knockout game, as boring as we are.
We couldn't raise it enough to beat Scotland. Or are you still arguing that we didn't really want to?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Spiral » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pm
It doesn’t make a difference whatever stage you need to turn up.
But 'turning up' (which is to say, playing the game of your life) is easier in a semi final when the prize is within touching distance, than in a round of 16 tie where your opposition is merely an obstacle to overcome. It's human nature to think this way, and the best managers know how to manage this psychology. The prize becomes less abstract the further you go.

Put is this way: if we draw France in our first knockout game, it's tournament over for us. In the final? I'm not so sure.

Everyone know this. You all know this in your gut. Why does anyone even contest this? What are we even arguing about?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by bfcjg » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pm

Southgate is obsessed with high paid players being the best for England.
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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:33 pm

Spiral wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pm
But 'turning up' (which is to say, playing the game of your life) is easier in a semi final when the prize is within touching distance, than in a round of 16 tie where your opposition is merely an obstacle to overcome. It's human nature to think this way, and the best managers know how to manage this psychology. The prize becomes less abstract the further you go.

Put is this way: if we draw France in our first knockout game, it's tournament over for us. In the final? I'm not so sure.

Everyone know this. You all know this in your gut. Why does anyone even contest this? What are we even arguing about?
It doesn’t matter if you don’t turn up more often than not you get beat or you become reliant on the other team playing substandard, you are overthinking something simple & regarding any team psychology remember it’s exactly the same for the other team, it boils down to whoever plays better on the day wins the game. You can carry on analysing & overthinking to your hearts content but I know I’m right.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:26 pm
We couldn't raise it enough to beat Scotland. Or are you still arguing that we didn't really want to?
We chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:39 pm

Spiral wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pm
But 'turning up' (which is to say, playing the game of your life) is easier in a semi final when the prize is within touching distance, than in a round of 16 tie where your opposition is merely an obstacle to overcome. It's human nature to think this way, and the best managers know how to manage this psychology. The prize becomes less abstract the further you go.

Put is this way: if we draw France in our first knockout game, it's tournament over for us. In the final? I'm not so sure.

Everyone know this. You all know this in your gut. Why does anyone even contest this? What are we even arguing about?
And presumably it's the same for France. If we play France in the last 16, both sides might lose. If we play them in the final, both sides might win. I think. :?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:33 pm
It doesn’t matter if you don’t turn up more often than not you get beat or you become reliant on the other team playing substandard, you are overthinking something simple & regarding any team psychology remember it’s exactly the same for the other team, it boils down to whoever plays better on the day wins the game. You can carry on analysing & overthinking to your hearts content but I know I’m right.
It's not hard to understand, if your route to win the FA Cup is

Man United (last 16) - Arsenal (qf) - Leicester (semi) - Chelsea (final)

you are far more unlikely to reach the final than if your route was

Ipswich (last 16) - Barnsley (qf) - Sheff United (semi) - Chelsea (final).

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by boatshed bill » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:41 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pm
We chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.
I agree, but,
a better plan would be to go a goal up, cruise until injury time, then throw one in guaranteeing the draw. ;)

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Spiral » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:41 pm

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pm
Southgate is obsessed with high paid players being the best for England.
Not even remotely true, but rather, Southgate's notion of 'form' is judged over a much longer period of time than most fans' ideas of form. I'd drop Kane and Sterling for the next game, but there again I'd never have started Sterling against Croatia, and it's Southgate's perception of Sterling's form for England over a time frame longer — and more patiently so — than most England fans (myself included) that impelled him to start Sterling against Croatia, and we were rewarded for it. We see this in Dyche, too, by the way, and it works out well in the end for us, so, frustrating as it can be, I'm not going to get too het up about loyalty to certain players. (Yet!)

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:42 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pm
We chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.
And if we finish 3rd?

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:43 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pm
We chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.
There's a flaw in this idea. If you spend three games passing it around and not really trying to score, and succeeding in scoring very few goals, the lack of practice in scoring goals might be a drawback in the knockout rounds. Is it really a good idea for England to play for 0-0 and expect to win on penalties.

Here's my idea. Instead of playing a defensive game based on Mings and Maguire being the pillars on which the side is based, and hope that the rest do well enough to sneak a goal - why not play a more attacking game based on Kane and Grealish/Foden being the towers of strength and the rest doing well enough to keep the others out? They say play to your strengths. Well, whatever the merits of Mings v Tarkowski, it would be a severely optimistic view to call Mings one of our strengths.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Spiral » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:43 pm

dsr wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:39 pm
And presumably it's the same for France. If we play France in the last 16, both sides might lose. If we play them in the final, both sides might win. I think. :?0
France are a million times better than us. Only way we beat them is in a SF/final.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:44 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 pm
It's not hard to understand, if your route to win the FA Cup is

Man United (last 16) - Arsenal (qf) - Leicester (semi) - Chelsea (final)

you are far more unlikely to reach the final than if your route was

Ipswich (last 16) - Barnsley (qf) - Sheff United (semi) - Chelsea (final).
Whoever you face you still need to play well, no easy routes if the opposition put up stiff resistance, some of us thought tonight Scotland was a banker, well was it? You can easily lose to Ipswich if they play astoundingly well as easy as you can lose to man United if they play poorly.

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Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:45 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:42 pm
And if we finish 3rd?
We will still likely come out with an easier tie than France/Portugal. A bore draw against the Czechs will do us nicely

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