Southgate masterplan
Southgate masterplan
Don't we have an easier passage in the next round if we finish 2nd in the group?
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Don't we avoid Portugal/Germany/France if we finish 2nd?
Re: Southgate masterplan
We’ve got to get out of the group first.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
If we finish 2nd, who do we play?minnieclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:07 pmYes. Somebody pointed out the other day we would then play them in the following round.
I’m just going to check where finishing third will take us.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
We need to avoid playing France, Germany or Portugal in the last 16. I have not checked, but 4 points should be enough to get one of the 4 third places.
Last edited by summitclaret on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Does it go on results against one another, i.e. if Croatia pump Scotland and Czech Republic beat us then we still qualify, regardless of goal difference?
Edit: just read about the 4 third places.
Last edited by BurnleyFC on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
"Play **** lads because I don't fancy us against a good team"
I mean yeah, it could happen.
I mean yeah, it could happen.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
So if we finish 2nd we'll probably play Sweden. 1st will be Germany/Portugal.minnieclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:11 pm2nd=2nd GE(Spain,Sweden,Slovakia)
3rd=after sorting final positions, first in F,E,B or C
Re: Southgate masterplan
Portugal won the Euros last time without winning a group game, they drew all 3
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Re: Southgate masterplan
He pulled the same stunt in the World Cup and it got us to the semis, creating the illusion we’d had a great tournament and he was the nations hero. Now everyone is waking up to the fact we lost 3 games and were average at best.
He’s done an excellent job of keeping himself in a role he doesn’t remotely deserve and isn’t remotely capable of performing. He’s a PR man for the FA.
He’s done an excellent job of keeping himself in a role he doesn’t remotely deserve and isn’t remotely capable of performing. He’s a PR man for the FA.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Portugal only beat Wales in 90 minutes in the entire tournament last time, beat Poland on penalties and won 2 games in ET after the 3 group drawsminnieclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:15 pmItaly won the World Cup in Spain ‘82 after 3 group draws. After that they were magnificent.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
It's all set up for a pre-negotiated draw with Czech Republic, a nice rest for the players and a slightly easier 2nd phase for us. Southgate's tactics are fine
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Don't forget this is a very young team.
If it does slip your mind rest assured Gareth will remind you at every given opportunity.
If it does slip your mind rest assured Gareth will remind you at every given opportunity.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Finish 2nd, play Portugal or France in the last 16
Finish top play either of them in the quarters. No real difference.
Finish top play either of them in the quarters. No real difference.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
We were awful during the group stages of Italia 90 if that's any consolation
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I don't know why people get their expectations up.JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pmWe were awful during the group stages of Italia 90 if that's any consolation
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I don't buy the whole "we have to play the best teams at some point" argument, because it ignores the effect that momentum has in tournament football. If we absolutely have to play the Germans, I'd rather do it on the back of winning a knockout game than doing it straight out of the groups. Doesn't excuse tonight's w@nk performance, mind, but it's still true.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
We weren't exactly great against Belgium or Cameroon either.JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pmWe were awful during the group stages of Italia 90 if that's any consolation
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Re: Southgate masterplan
There is a real difference lol like a real real differenceWinstonswhite wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:41 pmFinish 2nd, play Portugal or France in the last 16
Finish top play either of them in the quarters. No real difference.
Knockout football is about avoiding the big sides until later into the tournament, you want a favorable draw, build momentum then head into a big semi final against one of the big sides. There's a huge difference between playing Sweden in the first knockout round and playing France/Portugal
Re: Southgate masterplan
Exactly, waiting to peak, slowly plodding along in 2nd gear through the group stages while maintaining freshness. I'd rather peak late than earlyboatshed bill wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:22 pmIt's all set up for a pre-negotiated draw with Czech Republic, a nice rest for the players and a slightly easier 2nd phase for us. Southgate's tactics are fine
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Absolutely. We were very lucky against Cameroon that’s for sureTheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:51 pmWe weren't exactly great against Belgium or Cameroon either.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Trying to manipulate the group position for a favourable draw can't be helpful either though as, like you say, momentum is important. I'd rather win the group convincingly, be full of confidence taking on whoever the draw gives us.Spiral wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 pmI don't buy the whole "we have to play the best teams at some point" argument, because it ignores the effect that momentum has in tournament football. If we absolutely have to play the Germans, I'd rather do it on the back of winning a knockout game than doing it straight out of the groups. Doesn't excuse tonight's w@nk performance, mind, but it's still true.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
This tit couldn’t plan a tea party
Re: Southgate masterplan
I'd rather us plod through the group in 2nd gear and play Sweden in the first knockout round instead of smoking the group and playing France/Portugal. Peak late not early, the group stages in competitions are generally tedious, just about getting through with minimal effort.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:57 pmTrying to manipulate the group position for a favourable draw can't be helpful either though as, like you say, momentum is important. I'd rather win the group convincingly, be full of confidence taking on whoever the draw gives us.
Put it this way, I'm glad we played in 2nd gear against Scotland in a group games instead of a knockout round. Job done
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Southgate isn’t intelligent enough to have a master plan end of thread
Re: Southgate masterplan
I don't buy KRBFC's possibly tongue-in-cheek idea of a Southgate masterplan, and nobody serious is advocating group manipulation, but I'm contesting the idea that playing a high ranked team in the round of 16 is the same thing as playing that same team in the final. It's not.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:57 pmTrying to manipulate the group position for a favourable draw can't be helpful either though as, like you say, momentum is important. I'd rather win the group convincingly, be full of confidence taking on whoever the draw gives us.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
If you can guarantee that we can up our game at a flick of a switch when it gets to the knockout rounds, that is fine.KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:03 pmI'd rather us plod through the group in 2nd gear and play Sweden in the first knockout round instead of smoking the group and playing France/Portugal. Peak late not early, the group stages in competitions are generally tedious, just about getting through with minimal effort.
Put it this way, I'm glad we played in 2nd gear against Scotland in a group games instead of a knockout round. Job done
I have little faith that this team is capable of that.
Re: Southgate masterplan
I'd fancy us to raise our game enough to beat Sweden or Slovakia in a knockout game, as boring as we are.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:13 pmIf you can guarantee that we can up our game at a flick of a switch when it gets to the knockout rounds, that is fine.
I have little faith that this team is capable of that.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
It doesn’t make a difference whatever stage you need to turn up.Spiral wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:12 pmI don't buy KRBFC's possibly tongue-in-cheek idea of a Southgate masterplan, and nobody serious is advocating group manipulation, but I'm contesting the idea that playing a high ranked team in the round of 16 is the same thing as playing that same team in the final. It's not.
Re: Southgate masterplan
You want the easiest route to the final, we had a really favorable draw in the WC. Sweden in the first knockout round or Portugal/France? you take Sweden and fancy your chances all day long.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pmIt doesn’t make a difference whatever stage you need to turn up.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
But 'turning up' (which is to say, playing the game of your life) is easier in a semi final when the prize is within touching distance, than in a round of 16 tie where your opposition is merely an obstacle to overcome. It's human nature to think this way, and the best managers know how to manage this psychology. The prize becomes less abstract the further you go.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:15 pmIt doesn’t make a difference whatever stage you need to turn up.
Put is this way: if we draw France in our first knockout game, it's tournament over for us. In the final? I'm not so sure.
Everyone know this. You all know this in your gut. Why does anyone even contest this? What are we even arguing about?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Southgate is obsessed with high paid players being the best for England.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
It doesn’t matter if you don’t turn up more often than not you get beat or you become reliant on the other team playing substandard, you are overthinking something simple & regarding any team psychology remember it’s exactly the same for the other team, it boils down to whoever plays better on the day wins the game. You can carry on analysing & overthinking to your hearts content but I know I’m right.Spiral wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pmBut 'turning up' (which is to say, playing the game of your life) is easier in a semi final when the prize is within touching distance, than in a round of 16 tie where your opposition is merely an obstacle to overcome. It's human nature to think this way, and the best managers know how to manage this psychology. The prize becomes less abstract the further you go.
Put is this way: if we draw France in our first knockout game, it's tournament over for us. In the final? I'm not so sure.
Everyone know this. You all know this in your gut. Why does anyone even contest this? What are we even arguing about?
Re: Southgate masterplan
We chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:26 pmWe couldn't raise it enough to beat Scotland. Or are you still arguing that we didn't really want to?
Re: Southgate masterplan
And presumably it's the same for France. If we play France in the last 16, both sides might lose. If we play them in the final, both sides might win. I think.Spiral wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 pmBut 'turning up' (which is to say, playing the game of your life) is easier in a semi final when the prize is within touching distance, than in a round of 16 tie where your opposition is merely an obstacle to overcome. It's human nature to think this way, and the best managers know how to manage this psychology. The prize becomes less abstract the further you go.
Put is this way: if we draw France in our first knockout game, it's tournament over for us. In the final? I'm not so sure.
Everyone know this. You all know this in your gut. Why does anyone even contest this? What are we even arguing about?
Re: Southgate masterplan
It's not hard to understand, if your route to win the FA Cup isJakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:33 pmIt doesn’t matter if you don’t turn up more often than not you get beat or you become reliant on the other team playing substandard, you are overthinking something simple & regarding any team psychology remember it’s exactly the same for the other team, it boils down to whoever plays better on the day wins the game. You can carry on analysing & overthinking to your hearts content but I know I’m right.
Man United (last 16) - Arsenal (qf) - Leicester (semi) - Chelsea (final)
you are far more unlikely to reach the final than if your route was
Ipswich (last 16) - Barnsley (qf) - Sheff United (semi) - Chelsea (final).
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I agree, but,KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pmWe chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.
a better plan would be to go a goal up, cruise until injury time, then throw one in guaranteeing the draw.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Not even remotely true, but rather, Southgate's notion of 'form' is judged over a much longer period of time than most fans' ideas of form. I'd drop Kane and Sterling for the next game, but there again I'd never have started Sterling against Croatia, and it's Southgate's perception of Sterling's form for England over a time frame longer — and more patiently so — than most England fans (myself included) that impelled him to start Sterling against Croatia, and we were rewarded for it. We see this in Dyche, too, by the way, and it works out well in the end for us, so, frustrating as it can be, I'm not going to get too het up about loyalty to certain players. (Yet!)
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Re: Southgate masterplan
And if we finish 3rd?KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pmWe chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.
Re: Southgate masterplan
There's a flaw in this idea. If you spend three games passing it around and not really trying to score, and succeeding in scoring very few goals, the lack of practice in scoring goals might be a drawback in the knockout rounds. Is it really a good idea for England to play for 0-0 and expect to win on penalties.KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:35 pmWe chilled in gear 2, job done, sail into the knockout rounds with the easiest tie possible. The occasion is very different when the knockout rounds start, lose and you're out. We were probably through to the knockout rounds after 1 win against Croatia. If Tonight was a knockout game, we'd have comfortably beat them lot. They needed and wanted it more tonight. Get Kane and Foden off for a rest, put their feet up, job done.
Here's my idea. Instead of playing a defensive game based on Mings and Maguire being the pillars on which the side is based, and hope that the rest do well enough to sneak a goal - why not play a more attacking game based on Kane and Grealish/Foden being the towers of strength and the rest doing well enough to keep the others out? They say play to your strengths. Well, whatever the merits of Mings v Tarkowski, it would be a severely optimistic view to call Mings one of our strengths.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Whoever you face you still need to play well, no easy routes if the opposition put up stiff resistance, some of us thought tonight Scotland was a banker, well was it? You can easily lose to Ipswich if they play astoundingly well as easy as you can lose to man United if they play poorly.KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 pmIt's not hard to understand, if your route to win the FA Cup is
Man United (last 16) - Arsenal (qf) - Leicester (semi) - Chelsea (final)
you are far more unlikely to reach the final than if your route was
Ipswich (last 16) - Barnsley (qf) - Sheff United (semi) - Chelsea (final).
Re: Southgate masterplan
We will still likely come out with an easier tie than France/Portugal. A bore draw against the Czechs will do us nicely