Ipswich is a considerably easier tie than Man United, don't insult my intelligence.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:44 pmWhoever you face you still need to play well, no easy routes if the opposition put up stiff resistance, some of us thought tonight Scotland was a banker, well was it? You can easily lose to Ipswich if they play astoundingly well as easy as you can lose to man United if they play poorly.
Southgate masterplan
Re: Southgate masterplan
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Ipswich are in League sodding One and ManU finished 2nd in the PL. Of course you need to turn up, but Jesus Christ how are you struggling with this?
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Todays factoid : Scotland were the only unbeaten side in the 1974 World Cup finals, and didn't get out of their group ....
Re: Southgate masterplan
Goal difference, wasn't it? Brazil, Yugoslavia and Scotland all got a couple of draws against each other, and they all beat Zaire - 9-0 for Brazil, 3-0 for Yugoslavia, 2-0 for Scotland. what a shame.Clarets4me wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 pmTodays factoid : Scotland were the only unbeaten side in the 1974 World Cup finals, and didn't get out of their group ....
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Re: Southgate masterplan
It’s a battle to avoid the PortugueseTheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:56 pmThe Czechs may also have an eye on the easier draw too. They could easily hand us the group if they are so inclined.
Re: Southgate masterplan
This is true whether against ManU or Ipswich: don't turn up, you lose. Thanks, Pep. Didn't know that. The point is that you'd rather play Ipswich than ManU. And so it is also true that you'd rather play Sweden than France. Then (to speak in your vague, say-nothing, platitudinal language), you see what happens later in the competition when anything can happen.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 pmI’m not struggling with anything I’ll answer my own question shall I, you get beat that’s the answer.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Yeah or 3rd, 2nd will be Slovakia or Sweden I think someone saidVegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 amwhere do we need to finish to avoid France, Germany and Portugal ? 2nd ?
Re: Southgate masterplan
4th would do it.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 amwhere do we need to finish to avoid France, Germany and Portugal ? 2nd ?
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Re: Southgate masterplan
We aren’t really comparing like for like, we will call Macedonia Ipswich for arguments sake & Italy man United, as things progress we will have to face some of the big boys eventually, as much as we’d like the route to the final will not depend upon Macedonia (Ipswich) or Hungary (Rotherham) it is what it is, if we want to progress it’s unavoidable. Sweden on the day can just be as dangerous as Portugal if Portugal don’t turn up, we need to be in control of our destiny & take responsibility for whatever happens.Spiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 amThis is true whether against ManU or Ipswich: don't turn up, you lose. Thanks, Pep. Didn't know that. The point is that you'd rather play Ipswich than ManU. And so it is also true that you'd rather play Sweden than France. Then (to speak in your vague, say-nothing, platitudinal language), you see what happens later in the competition when anything can happen.
Re: Southgate masterplan
I don’t know how you’re still trying to argue a pretty basic concept of avoiding the big guns until late gives you a better chance of success. It’s not difficult to understand you have a better chance of beating Macedonia than you do Italy.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:15 amWe aren’t really comparing like for like, we will call Macedonia Ipswich for arguments sake & Italy man United, as things progress we will have to face some of the big boys eventually, as much as we’d like the route to the final will not depend upon Macedonia (Ipswich) or Hungary (Rotherham) it is what it is, if we want to progress it’s unavoidable. Sweden on the day can just be as dangerous as Portugal if Portugal don’t turn up, we need to be in control of our destiny & take responsibility for whatever happens.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Winning the group we'll play 2nd place of France, Germany, Portugal and Hungary. If we come 2nd we'll play 2nd place of Sweden, Slovakia, Spain and Poland. If we're a best-placed qualifying 3rd place it gets a bit confusing but I think we play 1st of the above group with Spain, or, realistically, Belgium.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Could be wrong but I think this is the bloke who keeps a stash of out of date antibiotics "just in case".
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Re: Southgate masterplan
The law of averages yes, if you are going to get beat in the knockouts or quarters does it really matter, you aren’t winning the final in any scenario, If we are getting eliminated I’d rather go out earlier on than the build up to a massive quarter final & end up more disappointed, obviously I’d like us to go all the way but if we aren’t what’s the point in prolonging the agony?
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Re: Southgate masterplan
so we need to finish 2nd then and get battered by SpainSpiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:18 amWinning the group we'll play 2nd place of France, Germany, Portugal and Hungary. If we come 2nd we'll play 2nd place of Sweden, Slovakia, Spain and Poland. If we're a best-placed qualifying 3rd place it gets a bit confusing but I think we play 1st of the above group with Spain, or, realistically, Belgium.
Re: Southgate masterplan
I just hope Southgate sticks to the master plan and doesn’t fold to the crying public and beat the Czechs. 0-0 pleaseSpiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:18 amWinning the group we'll play 2nd place of France, Germany, Portugal and Hungary. If we come 2nd we'll play 2nd place of Sweden, Slovakia, Spain and Poland. If we're a best-placed qualifying 3rd place it gets a bit confusing but I think we play 1st of the above group with Spain, or, realistically, Belgium.
Re: Southgate masterplan
It’s the hope that kills you and you just never know in a final, nobody fancied the Portuguese to beat France and up popped shitty Eder to be a national hero. A final at Wembley against Italy, I’d fancy us.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:21 amThe law of averages yes, if you are going to get beat in the knockouts or quarters does it really matter, you aren’t winning the final in any scenario, If we are getting eliminated I’d rather go out earlier on than the build up to a massive quarter final & end up more disappointed, obviously I’d like us to go all the way but if we aren’t what’s the point in prolonging the agony?
Re: Southgate masterplan
For all the cult of personality surrounding Enrique, I honestly don't rate them at all.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:22 amso we need to finish 2nd then and get battered by Spain
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I think the bigger example was Greece beating Portugal in Portugal - that was ******* hilarious
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Re: Southgate masterplan
It’s the dark horses that sometimes can surprise, on tonight’s showing the final won’t include us anyway so it’s a moot point.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
No danger there. Spain will have 88% possession, neither team will have a shot on goal and we'll sneak through in a shoot out after 23 penalties.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:22 amso we need to finish 2nd then and get battered by Spain
Re: Southgate masterplan
We played in 2nd gear tonight, it was largely a meaningless game. Nothing on the line reallyJakubclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 amIt’s the dark horses that sometimes can surprise, on tonight’s showing the final won’t include us anyway so it’s a moot point.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
We haven’t done so bad so far overall, let’s hope we can at least agree on that, belated good evening.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I think without doubt he set up the team to draw... And even if he didn't it's turned out well for us. I don't get the flaming of him, yeah his substitutions were crap and he didn't pull players that were playing poor but part of that is about fitness and keeping confidence in players.
I think the lack of a true and fit central midfielder is an issue, with only Henderson in the team. Phillips and Rice tend not to be complete enough players to link up play well enough, although Phillips was excellentl in the last game.
I thought the players were more to blame than anything, but perhaps that's because they had the instruction not to give 100%
But let's not take anything away from Scotland who nullified our threat and played out of their skins. They look a decent team compared to old. A good wake up call for England that's happened at the right time.
I think the lack of a true and fit central midfielder is an issue, with only Henderson in the team. Phillips and Rice tend not to be complete enough players to link up play well enough, although Phillips was excellentl in the last game.
I thought the players were more to blame than anything, but perhaps that's because they had the instruction not to give 100%
But let's not take anything away from Scotland who nullified our threat and played out of their skins. They look a decent team compared to old. A good wake up call for England that's happened at the right time.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Harry Kane was struggling all game clearly not match fit and should never have started
Phillips struggled to get going and Rice was just shite.Little Billy"Kante" Gilmour ran the midfield.
Southgate got the gig originally on the back of allegedly managing the U23 to flop level
He was an easy yesman option with little management success .The problem is the FA said his job is safe even if, as will happen, we dont win the tournament.
Low expectations produce low outcomes.
Phillips struggled to get going and Rice was just shite.Little Billy"Kante" Gilmour ran the midfield.
Southgate got the gig originally on the back of allegedly managing the U23 to flop level
He was an easy yesman option with little management success .The problem is the FA said his job is safe even if, as will happen, we dont win the tournament.
Low expectations produce low outcomes.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
That's right .... I remember Billy Bremner putting the ball the wrong side of the post late on against Brazil from about a yard out .... the winners West Germany lost a group game to, of all people, East Germany !
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Whoever you play against at international level the other team usually get opportunities, Scotland team are no duckeggs, some of there players are also plying their trade in the premier league, if we drop in performance & they raise it there isn’t that much difference breaking it down.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Winning the group gives them a last 16 game at Wembley. Having home advantage is probably a bigger factor than the standard of the opposition.
Re: Southgate masterplan
The route is more important than the venue, especially with 25% attendances. Wembley isn't the most ferocious place to visit even when full.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Whilst agreeing with the majority on this thread that Southgate isn’t up to the job, I do think that we have an over inflated view of how good these England players actually are.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Finishing second would replace Portugal/Germany at Wembley with an easier tie (but not at Wembley), then would follow probably with France in Russia in the QF. Which would be a disaster.
I don’t think he’s clever enough to have a masterplan, and this is certainly not it.
Southgate is like a robot with the CPU of an old Atari.
Emotionless - rather than busting a gut to beat the old enemy he seemed to prefer pragmatically holding on with 2 holding midfielders than going for it 4-4-2 with Calvert Lewin and Rashford up top, he admitted at the end the crucial thing was not to lose. Tactics - never changed to a plan B, it was Dyche-like in many ways. Played James inexplicably (instead of Trips for set pieces and crosses) who did nothing but pass back (pass completion 98% for a fullback is worryingly high - very few crosses slung in near the end). Could have stuck Maguire on too for set pieces and certainly pulled off a holding MF.
I had incredibly low expectations of Southgate but he’s so far managed to exceed them in the wrong direction, and even more worryingly, is guaranteed to keep his job if we get to the knockouts.
I don’t think he’s clever enough to have a masterplan, and this is certainly not it.
Southgate is like a robot with the CPU of an old Atari.
Emotionless - rather than busting a gut to beat the old enemy he seemed to prefer pragmatically holding on with 2 holding midfielders than going for it 4-4-2 with Calvert Lewin and Rashford up top, he admitted at the end the crucial thing was not to lose. Tactics - never changed to a plan B, it was Dyche-like in many ways. Played James inexplicably (instead of Trips for set pieces and crosses) who did nothing but pass back (pass completion 98% for a fullback is worryingly high - very few crosses slung in near the end). Could have stuck Maguire on too for set pieces and certainly pulled off a holding MF.
I had incredibly low expectations of Southgate but he’s so far managed to exceed them in the wrong direction, and even more worryingly, is guaranteed to keep his job if we get to the knockouts.
Last edited by CrosspoolClarets on Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I wouldn't knock Sweden down just yet if we do play them. Not conceded a goal, very tight defensively, great framework and look a bit better than in the WC. Got a cracking young striker up top, too. They might even win the group. Spain / Poland is a big one today to see how that group pans out.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Perhaps it is the players own over inflation.Hapag Lloyd wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:09 amWhilst agreeing with the majority on this thread that Southgate isn’t up to the job, I do think that we have an over inflated view of how good these England players actually are.
When Foden gets a Gazza blonde haircut, you know he is deluded.
Re: Southgate masterplan
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.Hapag Lloyd wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:09 amWhilst agreeing with the majority on this thread that Southgate isn’t up to the job, I do think that we have an over inflated view of how good these England players actually are.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
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Re: Southgate masterplan
RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 amWe have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Dead right RV. They’re playing for a Manager who simply does provide them with a tactical plan and they run out of ideas of their own after 20 mins
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I’ve posted this on another thread but the following are two likely routes to the final.
Finish 1st;
R16 - Germany/Portugal
QF - Spain
SF - Netherlands
F - France
Finish 2nd;
R16 - Slovakia/Sweden
QF - France
SF - Italy/Belgium
F - Portugal
I think that France and Italy have looked two strongest sides thus far, and winning the group means we would most likely avoid both teams until the final. It may be that Southgate would prefer an easier second round tie and see where that takes us though.
We seemed happy to play for the draw last night, which in the scheme of things isn’t a bad result. But it was a thoroughly abject performance that will do nothing for the confidence of our attacking players. I can’t imagine Kane, Foden and Grealish are having the best summer of their lives.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Is southgate dyche in disguise?RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 amWe have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Re: Southgate masterplan
I would always want us to take the easiest path.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:38 amI’ve posted this on another thread but the following are two likely routes to the final.
Finish 1st;
R16 - Germany/Portugal
QF - Spain
SF - Netherlands
F - France
Finish 2nd;
R16 - Slovakia/Sweden
QF - France
SF - Italy/Belgium
F - Portugal
I think that France and Italy have looked two strongest sides thus far, and winning the group means we would most likely avoid both teams until the final. It may be that Southgate would prefer an easier second round tie and see where that takes us though.
We seemed happy to play for the draw last night, which in the scheme of things isn’t a bad result. But it was a thoroughly abject performance that will do nothing for the confidence of our attacking players. I can’t imagine Kane, Foden and Grealish are having the best summer of their lives.
But if Southgate played for a draw last night it's just rubbish.
Re: Southgate masterplan
There is still every opportunity for England to progress a long way.
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Re: Southgate masterplan
I wouldn’t fancy Sweden last 16 in Copenhagen