Southgate masterplan

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
IanMcL
Posts: 30123
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 6340 times
Has Liked: 8651 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by IanMcL » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:46 am

How many of those 'young players' he bloodied, to bloom in future tournaments, remain in the squad?

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by taio » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:43 am
Agreed. But I don’t think that finishing second even gives us an easier path.
If that's the case it's even worse. But I do think second is easier.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:51 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.

Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.

Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.

Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.

Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.

That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Yes you are completely right with everything you say in that post, have you never considered that the players don’t have the same appetite for the country than the club, it was only awhile ago on this forum, us fans were discussing club or country does that not apply to how the players feel & what effort is applied towards that? Or another possibility you list what some of the players have achieved this season in winning this that & the other, could they simply be burnt out & need a rest? It’s heavily discussed on this forum about fitness & recuperation, since the season finished & the CL have any of them had a serious rest? Simple things like that are easily overlooked.

ClaretMov
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:13 pm
Been Liked: 843 times
Has Liked: 822 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by ClaretMov » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:24 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.

Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.

Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.

Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.

Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.

That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?


The so called brilliant English player's in the premier league only look that good because of the non English players around them in their club teams, when you stick them all together in the England squad with a boring English manager you see their true skill levels like you did last night against a team made up of championship players from QPR, Forest, Derby etc, Scottish team's that wouldn't cut it in the Championship and the very odd few that play at any sort of decent level

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by RVclaret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 am

Some good points. Regarding rather playing club or country, I would think the ties to playing for your country are stronger than a club who most of them have no real ‘personal’ ties to. Fitness I agree with - for example, Italy played near enough their strongest 11 in the two warm up games to this Euros and look exactly like they did in both games so far. We, however, had a patched up team in both games and as such look like it.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by RVclaret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:36 am

ClaretMov wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:24 am
The so called brilliant English player's in the premier league only look that good because of the non English players around them in their club teams, when you stick them all together in the England squad with a boring English manager you see their true skill levels like you did last night against a team made up of championship players from QPR, Forest, Derby etc, Scottish team's that wouldn't cut it in the Championship and the very odd few that play at any sort of decent level
I think that’s being a tad disrespectful to some of their players. McTominey regularly starts for United, Robertson has been one of the best left backs in the world across the past two seasons, Tierney was Arsenals best player this season. McGinn is an excellent player and Gilmour was starting for Chelsea not too long ago before an injury. Adams starts in the Prem as does Hanley. As a team they upped their game a lot, we dropped our game a lot, it doesn’t take much to close the gap. Yes we should expect better and hopefully Southgate learns a lesson from last night.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:56 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 am
Some good points. Regarding rather playing club or country, I would think the ties to playing for your country are stronger than a club who most of them have no real ‘personal’ ties to. Fitness I agree with - for example, Italy played near enough their strongest 11 in the two warm up games to this Euros and look exactly like they did in both games so far. We, however, had a patched up team in both games and as such look like it.
You probably receive more money from the club than the country, I think for international duty you get paid per appearance, that’s what it’s all about, say for example you was a GCH engineer & you got paid £200 for installing a boiler & another job you got paid £50 for doing the exact same thing, would you put the effort in the same? I realise it’s probably not the best example as you could actually kill somebody if the job wasn’t done correctly, you can use your own example but you get my drift.

KRBFC
Posts: 18018
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:18 am
Been Liked: 3784 times
Has Liked: 1071 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:27 pm

4 points after 2 group games, there's a whole lot of overreaction over very very little if you look at the bigger picture. The team can only get better and we still didn't concede a goal, defence wins trophies. You can't play well every game and we didn't lose, job done. I'm happy we threw a stinker in the group stage instead of a knockout game.

KRBFC
Posts: 18018
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:18 am
Been Liked: 3784 times
Has Liked: 1071 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 pm

ClaretMov wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:24 am
The so called brilliant English player's in the premier league only look that good because of the non English players around them in their club teams,
That's horse shite tbh and you know it

ClaretMov
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:13 pm
Been Liked: 843 times
Has Liked: 822 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by ClaretMov » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:47 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 pm
That's horse shite tbh and you know it
England superstars 0 - Scotland 0

Also how many of our English so called superstars play abroad for the top European teams, ????? Because they aren't good enough to get in
Last edited by ClaretMov on Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Silkyskills1
Posts: 5841
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:39 pm
Been Liked: 1678 times
Has Liked: 2513 times
Location: Rawtenstall

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Silkyskills1 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:58 pm

How and why can ' the team only get better'? Is there not the slightest chance that it actually gets worse when playing against far better teams than Scotland. All the talent that people have been eulogising about and craving for was on show last night. Where do they presumably improve? And just to add I'm.not playing devil's advocate here because ultimately I don't care personally. Never been an international.football fan but this suggestion that 'throwing one in' clears.the way for better things is just a fallacy.
These 2 users liked this post: ClaretMov tiger76

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:18 pm

If you go into a tournament saying you want to win it, you shouldn't be avoiding anybody.
We were crap, entirely due to the lack of any game plan from Southgate.
Pickford, Mings and Foden were the only ones to put in an acceptable performance, the rest were poor to absolutely awful.
My big gripe with Southgate is that he sends out eleven players and not one team. Unless we find a manager who can organise the players we will continue to struggle against poorer opposition, and get stuffed by the better.
These 2 users liked this post: ClaretMov tiger76

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Vegas Claret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:26 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.

Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.

Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.

Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.

Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.

That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
they turn up for England duty and are immediately fitted with a parachute to slow them down and play with the brakes on. All down to Southdud

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Vegas Claret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:31 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 pm
That's horse shite tbh and you know it
out of interest, how many of the Scotland squad would get in the England squad ? I suspect it would be zero

I would imagine some of the England players would get in other major teams squads, so I tend to agree it's not really down to the quality of player - It's down to the manager to get the best out of them as a collective and so far I don't think he has

expoultryboy
Posts: 1581
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:37 pm
Been Liked: 334 times
Has Liked: 451 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by expoultryboy » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:37 pm

I agree with you RV that we do have some extremely talented players , but how and why did Sterling who's had no form all season get a full game ? His substitutions were unbelievable - to take Foden off instead of Sterling - to leave 2 holding midfielders on when we're losing .

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10841
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5520 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:27 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:07 am
It’s a battle to avoid the Portuguese
:D

Steve1956
Posts: 17178
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Been Liked: 6463 times
Has Liked: 2896 times
Location: Fife

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Steve1956 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:37 pm

I read on another forum that Southgate had Morphed into " One tactic Ole" two average footballers who somehow have managed to bluff their way into two of the biggest jobs in World football...it really does defy all logic,poor Brian Clough must be spinning like a top.

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by taio » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:41 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:37 pm
I read on another forum that Southgate had Morphed into " One tactic Ole" two average footballers who somehow have managed to bluff their way into two of the biggest jobs in World football...it really does defy all logic,poor Brian Clough must be spinning like a top.
Solskjaer’s appointment was a surprise but to be fair he has done a reasonable job.

Steve1956
Posts: 17178
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Been Liked: 6463 times
Has Liked: 2896 times
Location: Fife

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Steve1956 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:44 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:41 pm
Solskjaer’s appointment was a surprise but to be fair he has done a reasonable job.
Not what United fans are saying,
United settling for second best isn't good enough,and with City dominating it's even worse for their support.

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by taio » Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:53 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:44 pm
Not what United fans are saying,
United settling for second best isn't good enough,and with City dominating it's even worse for their support.
It’s mixed. Some think he’s not high profile and good enough, others recognise he does a decent job after difficulty for several years.

KRBFC
Posts: 18018
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:18 am
Been Liked: 3784 times
Has Liked: 1071 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:12 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:31 pm
out of interest, how many of the Scotland squad would get in the England squad ? I suspect it would be zero

I would imagine some of the England players would get in other major teams squads, so I tend to agree it's not really down to the quality of player - It's down to the manager to get the best out of them as a collective and so far I don't think he has
How many of the Hungary squad get into the France team?

boatshed bill
Posts: 15107
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3137 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:32 pm

If a team was selected as the best 11 in the tournament does anyone really think there would be one England player in it?

Steve1956
Posts: 17178
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Been Liked: 6463 times
Has Liked: 2896 times
Location: Fife

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Steve1956 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:37 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:32 pm
If a team was selected as the best 11 in the tournament does anyone really think there would be one England player in it?
No..but you already knew the answer Bill

gandhisflipflop
Posts: 5500
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:05 pm
Been Liked: 2317 times
Has Liked: 1399 times
Location: Costa del Padihamos beach.

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pm

Not read the thread so sorry if already been mentioned but i am sick to the back teeth of Harry Kane. We have a wealth of creative players playing behind him there is no need for him to come deep to link up the play. Stay between the width of the posts and stay up the ******* top.

Vegas Claret
Posts: 30273
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 am
Been Liked: 10916 times
Has Liked: 5594 times
Location: clue is in the title

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Vegas Claret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:12 pm
How many of the Hungary squad get into the France team?
well done on not answering the question

boatshed bill
Posts: 15107
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3137 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:48 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:37 pm
No..but you already knew the answer Bill
Yes, but I was open to opinions :D

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by tiger76 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pm
Not read the thread so sorry if already been mentioned but i am sick to the back teeth of Harry Kane. We have a wealth of creative players playing behind him there is no need for him to come deep to link up the play. Stay between the width of the posts and stay up the ******* top.
Yes that's exactly what I was shouting at the telly last night as well, why on earth does Kane have to clog up the midfield when we have 2 holding midfielders to win the ball and play the simple passes to release our attacking players, how many times last night did England break and then find nobody in the box.

Could you imagine say Gary Lineker or Alan Shearer fannying about in midfield, no you couldn't they'd be lurking around the 18 yard box waiting for some decent service, because that's where strikers get the majority of their goals, it's a simple game as Germany showed earlier this evening and yet for some reason England and Southgate seem to want to complicate it, if you have one of the best finishers in Europe in your squad he should be sniffing out goal chances, not clogging up the centre of the park. :?
This user liked this post: gandhisflipflop

superdimitri
Posts: 4936
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:04 pm
Been Liked: 1005 times
Has Liked: 725 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by superdimitri » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:03 pm

Kane isn't really the best thinker but I think in the last game he couldn't compete physically so was trying to influence the game in a different way. The problem was that we weren't attacking enough. We also didn't seem to counter either.
Overall though the players know it's not the end of the world so it's no big deal.

KRBFC
Posts: 18018
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:18 am
Been Liked: 3784 times
Has Liked: 1071 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:49 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pm
Not read the thread so sorry if already been mentioned but i am sick to the back teeth of Harry Kane. We have a wealth of creative players playing behind him there is no need for him to come deep to link up the play. Stay between the width of the posts and stay up the ******* top.
He's really good at passing but it's infuriating, Rooney was the same. Kane stood out wide with Sterling/Foden in the box on their own for the cross.

KRBFC
Posts: 18018
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:18 am
Been Liked: 3784 times
Has Liked: 1071 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:50 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 pm
Yes that's exactly what I was shouting at the telly last night as well, why on earth does Kane have to clog up the midfield when we have 2 holding midfielders to win the ball and play the simple passes to release our attacking players, how many times last night did England break and then find nobody in the box.

Could you imagine say Gary Lineker or Alan Shearer fannying about in midfield, no you couldn't they'd be lurking around the 18 yard box waiting for some decent service, because that's where strikers get the majority of their goals, it's a simple game as Germany showed earlier this evening and yet for some reason England and Southgate seem to want to complicate it, if you have one of the best finishers in Europe in your squad he should be sniffing out goal chances, not clogging up the centre of the park. :?
as much as it pains you, it's not a Southgate thing, Kane does the exact same thing at Spurs, it's part of natural his game.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:12 pm

Steve1956 wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:44 pm
Not what United fans are saying,
United settling for second best isn't good enough,and with City dominating it's even worse for their support.
True If you have a look on redcafe periodically large swathes don’t really want OGS & have never really wanted him, he wasn’t a popular appointment when appointed, most folk just begrudgingly went along with it due to his history there, they wanted & expected a profile name & still do, whenever there draw or get beat he’s instantly jumped on even when a good run is just behind.

gandhisflipflop
Posts: 5500
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:05 pm
Been Liked: 2317 times
Has Liked: 1399 times
Location: Costa del Padihamos beach.

Re: Southgate masterplan

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:06 am

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:50 pm
as much as it pains you, it's not a Southgate thing, Kane does the exact same thing at Spurs, it's part of natural his game.
There is less creativity in those positions at Spurs so he may feel that he has to come deep at times. Saying that, his job is to score goals and he is excellent at it. He infuriates me when he comes deep and it is actually counter productive because at times the other night as you say he was out of the area when a crossing opportunity arose. I’d go as far to say that I’d play DCL in our next game. The system is far more important than any one individual. Italy are a prime example.

Post Reply