Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:46 am
How many of those 'young players' he bloodied, to bloom in future tournaments, remain in the squad?
If that's the case it's even worse. But I do think second is easier.
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Southgate masterplan
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Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 am
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:51 am
Yes you are completely right with everything you say in that post, have you never considered that the players don’t have the same appetite for the country than the club, it was only awhile ago on this forum, us fans were discussing club or country does that not apply to how the players feel & what effort is applied towards that? Or another possibility you list what some of the players have achieved this season in winning this that & the other, could they simply be burnt out & need a rest? It’s heavily discussed on this forum about fitness & recuperation, since the season finished & the CL have any of them had a serious rest? Simple things like that are easily overlooked.RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 amWe have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:24 am
RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 amWe have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
The so called brilliant English player's in the premier league only look that good because of the non English players around them in their club teams, when you stick them all together in the England squad with a boring English manager you see their true skill levels like you did last night against a team made up of championship players from QPR, Forest, Derby etc, Scottish team's that wouldn't cut it in the Championship and the very odd few that play at any sort of decent level
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 am
Some good points. Regarding rather playing club or country, I would think the ties to playing for your country are stronger than a club who most of them have no real ‘personal’ ties to. Fitness I agree with - for example, Italy played near enough their strongest 11 in the two warm up games to this Euros and look exactly like they did in both games so far. We, however, had a patched up team in both games and as such look like it.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:36 am
I think that’s being a tad disrespectful to some of their players. McTominey regularly starts for United, Robertson has been one of the best left backs in the world across the past two seasons, Tierney was Arsenals best player this season. McGinn is an excellent player and Gilmour was starting for Chelsea not too long ago before an injury. Adams starts in the Prem as does Hanley. As a team they upped their game a lot, we dropped our game a lot, it doesn’t take much to close the gap. Yes we should expect better and hopefully Southgate learns a lesson from last night.ClaretMov wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:24 amThe so called brilliant English player's in the premier league only look that good because of the non English players around them in their club teams, when you stick them all together in the England squad with a boring English manager you see their true skill levels like you did last night against a team made up of championship players from QPR, Forest, Derby etc, Scottish team's that wouldn't cut it in the Championship and the very odd few that play at any sort of decent level
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:56 am
You probably receive more money from the club than the country, I think for international duty you get paid per appearance, that’s what it’s all about, say for example you was a GCH engineer & you got paid £200 for installing a boiler & another job you got paid £50 for doing the exact same thing, would you put the effort in the same? I realise it’s probably not the best example as you could actually kill somebody if the job wasn’t done correctly, you can use your own example but you get my drift.RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:30 amSome good points. Regarding rather playing club or country, I would think the ties to playing for your country are stronger than a club who most of them have no real ‘personal’ ties to. Fitness I agree with - for example, Italy played near enough their strongest 11 in the two warm up games to this Euros and look exactly like they did in both games so far. We, however, had a patched up team in both games and as such look like it.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:27 pm
4 points after 2 group games, there's a whole lot of overreaction over very very little if you look at the bigger picture. The team can only get better and we still didn't concede a goal, defence wins trophies. You can't play well every game and we didn't lose, job done. I'm happy we threw a stinker in the group stage instead of a knockout game.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 pm
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:47 pm
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:58 pm
How and why can ' the team only get better'? Is there not the slightest chance that it actually gets worse when playing against far better teams than Scotland. All the talent that people have been eulogising about and craving for was on show last night. Where do they presumably improve? And just to add I'm.not playing devil's advocate here because ultimately I don't care personally. Never been an international.football fan but this suggestion that 'throwing one in' clears.the way for better things is just a fallacy.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:18 pm
If you go into a tournament saying you want to win it, you shouldn't be avoiding anybody.
We were crap, entirely due to the lack of any game plan from Southgate.
Pickford, Mings and Foden were the only ones to put in an acceptable performance, the rest were poor to absolutely awful.
My big gripe with Southgate is that he sends out eleven players and not one team. Unless we find a manager who can organise the players we will continue to struggle against poorer opposition, and get stuffed by the better.
We were crap, entirely due to the lack of any game plan from Southgate.
Pickford, Mings and Foden were the only ones to put in an acceptable performance, the rest were poor to absolutely awful.
My big gripe with Southgate is that he sends out eleven players and not one team. Unless we find a manager who can organise the players we will continue to struggle against poorer opposition, and get stuffed by the better.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:26 pm
they turn up for England duty and are immediately fitted with a parachute to slow them down and play with the brakes on. All down to SouthdudRVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 amWe have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:31 pm
out of interest, how many of the Scotland squad would get in the England squad ? I suspect it would be zero
I would imagine some of the England players would get in other major teams squads, so I tend to agree it's not really down to the quality of player - It's down to the manager to get the best out of them as a collective and so far I don't think he has
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:37 pm
I agree with you RV that we do have some extremely talented players , but how and why did Sterling who's had no form all season get a full game ? His substitutions were unbelievable - to take Foden off instead of Sterling - to leave 2 holding midfielders on when we're losing .
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:27 pm
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:37 pm
I read on another forum that Southgate had Morphed into " One tactic Ole" two average footballers who somehow have managed to bluff their way into two of the biggest jobs in World football...it really does defy all logic,poor Brian Clough must be spinning like a top.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:41 pm
Solskjaer’s appointment was a surprise but to be fair he has done a reasonable job.Steve1956 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:37 pmI read on another forum that Southgate had Morphed into " One tactic Ole" two average footballers who somehow have managed to bluff their way into two of the biggest jobs in World football...it really does defy all logic,poor Brian Clough must be spinning like a top.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:44 pm
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:53 pm
It’s mixed. Some think he’s not high profile and good enough, others recognise he does a decent job after difficulty for several years.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:12 pm
How many of the Hungary squad get into the France team?Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:31 pmout of interest, how many of the Scotland squad would get in the England squad ? I suspect it would be zero
I would imagine some of the England players would get in other major teams squads, so I tend to agree it's not really down to the quality of player - It's down to the manager to get the best out of them as a collective and so far I don't think he has
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:32 pm
If a team was selected as the best 11 in the tournament does anyone really think there would be one England player in it?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:37 pm
No..but you already knew the answer Billboatshed bill wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:32 pmIf a team was selected as the best 11 in the tournament does anyone really think there would be one England player in it?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pm
Not read the thread so sorry if already been mentioned but i am sick to the back teeth of Harry Kane. We have a wealth of creative players playing behind him there is no need for him to come deep to link up the play. Stay between the width of the posts and stay up the ******* top.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pm
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:48 pm
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 pm
Yes that's exactly what I was shouting at the telly last night as well, why on earth does Kane have to clog up the midfield when we have 2 holding midfielders to win the ball and play the simple passes to release our attacking players, how many times last night did England break and then find nobody in the box.gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pmNot read the thread so sorry if already been mentioned but i am sick to the back teeth of Harry Kane. We have a wealth of creative players playing behind him there is no need for him to come deep to link up the play. Stay between the width of the posts and stay up the ******* top.
Could you imagine say Gary Lineker or Alan Shearer fannying about in midfield, no you couldn't they'd be lurking around the 18 yard box waiting for some decent service, because that's where strikers get the majority of their goals, it's a simple game as Germany showed earlier this evening and yet for some reason England and Southgate seem to want to complicate it, if you have one of the best finishers in Europe in your squad he should be sniffing out goal chances, not clogging up the centre of the park.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:03 pm
Kane isn't really the best thinker but I think in the last game he couldn't compete physically so was trying to influence the game in a different way. The problem was that we weren't attacking enough. We also didn't seem to counter either.
Overall though the players know it's not the end of the world so it's no big deal.
Overall though the players know it's not the end of the world so it's no big deal.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:49 pm
He's really good at passing but it's infuriating, Rooney was the same. Kane stood out wide with Sterling/Foden in the box on their own for the cross.gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:39 pmNot read the thread so sorry if already been mentioned but i am sick to the back teeth of Harry Kane. We have a wealth of creative players playing behind him there is no need for him to come deep to link up the play. Stay between the width of the posts and stay up the ******* top.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:50 pm
as much as it pains you, it's not a Southgate thing, Kane does the exact same thing at Spurs, it's part of natural his game.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 pmYes that's exactly what I was shouting at the telly last night as well, why on earth does Kane have to clog up the midfield when we have 2 holding midfielders to win the ball and play the simple passes to release our attacking players, how many times last night did England break and then find nobody in the box.
Could you imagine say Gary Lineker or Alan Shearer fannying about in midfield, no you couldn't they'd be lurking around the 18 yard box waiting for some decent service, because that's where strikers get the majority of their goals, it's a simple game as Germany showed earlier this evening and yet for some reason England and Southgate seem to want to complicate it, if you have one of the best finishers in Europe in your squad he should be sniffing out goal chances, not clogging up the centre of the park.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:12 pm
True If you have a look on redcafe periodically large swathes don’t really want OGS & have never really wanted him, he wasn’t a popular appointment when appointed, most folk just begrudgingly went along with it due to his history there, they wanted & expected a profile name & still do, whenever there draw or get beat he’s instantly jumped on even when a good run is just behind.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:06 am
There is less creativity in those positions at Spurs so he may feel that he has to come deep at times. Saying that, his job is to score goals and he is excellent at it. He infuriates me when he comes deep and it is actually counter productive because at times the other night as you say he was out of the area when a crossing opportunity arose. I’d go as far to say that I’d play DCL in our next game. The system is far more important than any one individual. Italy are a prime example.