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Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:46 pm
by KRBFC
Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:44 pm
Whoever you face you still need to play well, no easy routes if the opposition put up stiff resistance, some of us thought tonight Scotland was a banker, well was it? You can easily lose to Ipswich if they play astoundingly well as easy as you can lose to man United if they play poorly.
Ipswich is a considerably easier tie than Man United, don't insult my intelligence.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:48 pm
by Jakubclaret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:46 pm
Ipswich is a considerably easier tie than Man United, don't insult my intelligence.
You still need to turn up however easy the tie, so what do you do if you don’t turn up & they do?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:50 pm
by Spiral
Ipswich are in League sodding One and ManU finished 2nd in the PL. Of course you need to turn up, but Jesus Christ how are you struggling with this?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 pm
by Jakubclaret
Spiral wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:50 pm
Ipswich are in League sodding One and ManU finished 2nd in the PL. Of course you need to turn up, but Jesus Christ how are you struggling with this?
I’m not struggling with anything I’ll answer my own question shall I, you get beat that’s the answer.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 pm
by Clarets4me
Todays factoid : Scotland were the only unbeaten side in the 1974 World Cup finals, and didn't get out of their group ....
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:54 pm
by dsr
Clarets4me wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 pm
Todays factoid : Scotland were the only unbeaten side in the 1974 World Cup finals, and didn't get out of their group ....
Goal difference, wasn't it? Brazil, Yugoslavia and Scotland all got a couple of draws against each other, and they all beat Zaire - 9-0 for Brazil, 3-0 for Yugoslavia, 2-0 for Scotland. what a shame.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:56 pm
by TheFamilyCat
KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:45 pm
We will still likely come out with an easier tie than France/Portugal. A bore draw against the Czechs will do us nicely
The Czechs may also have an eye on the easier draw too. They could easily hand us the group if they are so inclined.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:07 am
by KRBFC
TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:56 pm
The Czechs may also have an eye on the easier draw too. They could easily hand us the group if they are so inclined.
It’s a battle to avoid the Portuguese
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am
by Spiral
Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:52 pm
I’m not struggling with anything I’ll answer my own question shall I, you get beat that’s the answer.
This is true whether against ManU or Ipswich: don't turn up, you lose. Thanks, Pep. Didn't know that. The point is that you'd rather play Ipswich than ManU. And so it is also true that you'd rather play Sweden than France. Then (to speak in your vague, say-nothing, platitudinal language), you see what happens later in the competition when anything can happen.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 am
by Vegas Claret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:07 am
It’s a battle to avoid the Portuguese
where do we need to finish to avoid France, Germany and Portugal ? 2nd ?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:11 am
by KRBFC
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 am
where do we need to finish to avoid France, Germany and Portugal ? 2nd ?
Yeah or 3rd, 2nd will be Slovakia or Sweden I think someone said
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:14 am
by dsr
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:10 am
where do we need to finish to avoid France, Germany and Portugal ? 2nd ?
4th would do it.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:15 am
by Jakubclaret
Spiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am
This is true whether against ManU or Ipswich: don't turn up, you lose. Thanks, Pep. Didn't know that. The point is that you'd rather play Ipswich than ManU. And so it is also true that you'd rather play Sweden than France. Then (to speak in your vague, say-nothing, platitudinal language), you see what happens later in the competition when anything can happen.
We aren’t really comparing like for like, we will call Macedonia Ipswich for arguments sake & Italy man United, as things progress we will have to face some of the big boys eventually, as much as we’d like the route to the final will not depend upon Macedonia (Ipswich) or Hungary (Rotherham) it is what it is, if we want to progress it’s unavoidable. Sweden on the day can just be as dangerous as Portugal if Portugal don’t turn up, we need to be in control of our destiny & take responsibility for whatever happens.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:17 am
by KRBFC
Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:15 am
We aren’t really comparing like for like, we will call Macedonia Ipswich for arguments sake & Italy man United, as things progress we will have to face some of the big boys eventually, as much as we’d like the route to the final will not depend upon Macedonia (Ipswich) or Hungary (Rotherham) it is what it is, if we want to progress it’s unavoidable. Sweden on the day can just be as dangerous as Portugal if Portugal don’t turn up, we need to be in control of our destiny & take responsibility for whatever happens.
I don’t know how you’re still trying to argue a pretty basic concept of avoiding the big guns until late gives you a better chance of success. It’s not difficult to understand you have a better chance of beating Macedonia than you do Italy.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:18 am
by Spiral
Winning the group we'll play 2nd place of France, Germany, Portugal and Hungary. If we come 2nd we'll play 2nd place of Sweden, Slovakia, Spain and Poland. If we're a best-placed qualifying 3rd place it gets a bit confusing but I think we play 1st of the above group with Spain, or, realistically, Belgium.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:20 am
by Spiral
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:17 am
I don’t know how you’re still trying to argue a pretty basic concept of avoiding the big guns until late gives you a better chance of success. It’s not difficult to understand you have a better chance of beating Macedonia than you do Italy.
Could be wrong but I think this is the bloke who keeps a stash of out of date antibiotics "just in case".
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:21 am
by Vegas Claret
dsr wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:14 am
4th would do it.
brilliant !
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:21 am
by Jakubclaret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:17 am
I don’t know how you’re still trying to argue a pretty basic concept of avoiding the big guns until late gives you a better chance of success. It’s not difficult to understand you have a better chance of beating Macedonia than you do Italy.
The law of averages yes, if you are going to get beat in the knockouts or quarters does it really matter, you aren’t winning the final in any scenario, If we are getting eliminated I’d rather go out earlier on than the build up to a massive quarter final & end up more disappointed, obviously I’d like us to go all the way but if we aren’t what’s the point in prolonging the agony?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:22 am
by Vegas Claret
Spiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:18 am
Winning the group we'll play 2nd place of France, Germany, Portugal and Hungary. If we come 2nd we'll play 2nd place of Sweden, Slovakia, Spain and Poland. If we're a best-placed qualifying 3rd place it gets a bit confusing but I think we play 1st of the above group with Spain, or, realistically, Belgium.
so we need to finish 2nd then and get battered by Spain
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:23 am
by KRBFC
Spiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:18 am
Winning the group we'll play 2nd place of France, Germany, Portugal and Hungary. If we come 2nd we'll play 2nd place of Sweden, Slovakia, Spain and Poland. If we're a best-placed qualifying 3rd place it gets a bit confusing but I think we play 1st of the above group with Spain, or, realistically, Belgium.
I just hope Southgate sticks to the master plan and doesn’t fold to the crying public and beat the Czechs. 0-0 please
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:25 am
by KRBFC
Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:21 am
The law of averages yes, if you are going to get beat in the knockouts or quarters does it really matter, you aren’t winning the final in any scenario, If we are getting eliminated I’d rather go out earlier on than the build up to a massive quarter final & end up more disappointed, obviously I’d like us to go all the way but if we aren’t what’s the point in prolonging the agony?
It’s the hope that kills you and you just never know in a final, nobody fancied the Portuguese to beat France and up popped shitty Eder to be a national hero. A final at Wembley against Italy, I’d fancy us.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:26 am
by Spiral
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:22 am
so we need to finish 2nd then and get battered by Spain
For all the cult of personality surrounding Enrique, I honestly don't rate them at all.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:27 am
by Vegas Claret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:25 am
It’s the hope that kills you and you just never know in a final, nobody fancied the Portuguese to beat France and up popped shitty Eder to be a national hero. A final at Wembley against Italy, I’d fancy us.
I think the bigger example was Greece beating Portugal in Portugal - that was ******* hilarious
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:27 am
by Vegas Claret
Spiral wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:26 am
For all the cult of personality surrounding Enrique, I honestly don't rate them at all.
I was only jesting, they were poor the other night. I think France will walk this tournament tbh
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 am
by Jakubclaret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:25 am
It’s the hope that kills you and you just never know in a final, nobody fancied the Portuguese to beat France and up popped shitty Eder to be a national hero. A final at Wembley against Italy, I’d fancy us.
It’s the dark horses that sometimes can surprise, on tonight’s showing the final won’t include us anyway so it’s a moot point.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 am
by TheFamilyCat
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:22 am
so we need to finish 2nd then and get battered by Spain
No danger there. Spain will have 88% possession, neither team will have a shot on goal and we'll sneak through in a shoot out after 23 penalties.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:29 am
by KRBFC
Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:28 am
It’s the dark horses that sometimes can surprise, on tonight’s showing the final won’t include us anyway so it’s a moot point.
We played in 2nd gear tonight, it was largely a meaningless game. Nothing on the line really
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:32 am
by Jakubclaret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:29 am
We played in 2nd gear tonight, it was largely a meaningless game. Nothing on the line really
We haven’t done so bad so far overall, let’s hope we can at least agree on that, belated good evening.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:43 am
by Vegas Claret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:29 am
We played in 2nd gear tonight, it was largely a meaningless game. Nothing on the line really
I'd say we played in -5th gear ! England v Scotland is never a meaningless game
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:31 am
by superdimitri
I think without doubt he set up the team to draw... And even if he didn't it's turned out well for us. I don't get the flaming of him, yeah his substitutions were crap and he didn't pull players that were playing poor but part of that is about fitness and keeping confidence in players.
I think the lack of a true and fit central midfielder is an issue, with only Henderson in the team. Phillips and Rice tend not to be complete enough players to link up play well enough, although Phillips was excellentl in the last game.
I thought the players were more to blame than anything, but perhaps that's because they had the instruction not to give 100%
But let's not take anything away from Scotland who nullified our threat and played out of their skins. They look a decent team compared to old. A good wake up call for England that's happened at the right time.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:53 am
by Woodleyclaret
Harry Kane was struggling all game clearly not match fit and should never have started
Phillips struggled to get going and Rice was just shite.Little Billy"Kante" Gilmour ran the midfield.
Southgate got the gig originally on the back of allegedly managing the U23 to flop level
He was an easy yesman option with little management success .The problem is the FA said his job is safe even if, as will happen, we dont win the tournament.
Low expectations produce low outcomes.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:22 am
by Spijed
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:29 am
We played in 2nd gear tonight, it was largely a meaningless game. Nothing on the line really
Does playing in 2nd mean we deliberately allowed Scotland some golden opportunities to score?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:40 am
by Clarets4me
dsr wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:54 pm
Goal difference, wasn't it? Brazil, Yugoslavia and Scotland all got a couple of draws against each other, and they all beat Zaire - 9-0 for Brazil, 3-0 for Yugoslavia, 2-0 for Scotland. what a shame.
That's right .... I remember Billy Bremner putting the ball the wrong side of the post late on against Brazil from about a yard out .... the winners West Germany lost a group game to, of all people, East Germany !
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:49 am
by Jakubclaret
Spijed wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:22 am
Does playing in 2nd mean we deliberately allowed Scotland some golden opportunities to score?
Whoever you play against at international level the other team usually get opportunities, Scotland team are no duckeggs, some of there players are also plying their trade in the premier league, if we drop in performance & they raise it there isn’t that much difference breaking it down.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:43 am
by Tall Paul
Winning the group gives them a last 16 game at Wembley. Having home advantage is probably a bigger factor than the standard of the opposition.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:55 am
by KRBFC
Spijed wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:22 am
Does playing in 2nd mean we deliberately allowed Scotland some golden opportunities to score?
It means whatever you want it to mean
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:56 am
by KRBFC
Tall Paul wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:43 am
Winning the group gives them a last 16 game at Wembley. Having home advantage is probably a bigger factor than the standard of the opposition.
The route is more important than the venue, especially with 25% attendances. Wembley isn't the most ferocious place to visit even when full.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:09 am
by Hapag Lloyd
Whilst agreeing with the majority on this thread that Southgate isn’t up to the job, I do think that we have an over inflated view of how good these England players actually are.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:16 am
by CrosspoolClarets
Finishing second would replace Portugal/Germany at Wembley with an easier tie (but not at Wembley), then would follow probably with France in Russia in the QF. Which would be a disaster.
I don’t think he’s clever enough to have a masterplan, and this is certainly not it.
Southgate is like a robot with the CPU of an old Atari.
Emotionless - rather than busting a gut to beat the old enemy he seemed to prefer pragmatically holding on with 2 holding midfielders than going for it 4-4-2 with Calvert Lewin and Rashford up top, he admitted at the end the crucial thing was not to lose. Tactics - never changed to a plan B, it was Dyche-like in many ways. Played James inexplicably (instead of Trips for set pieces and crosses) who did nothing but pass back (pass completion 98% for a fullback is worryingly high - very few crosses slung in near the end). Could have stuck Maguire on too for set pieces and certainly pulled off a holding MF.
I had incredibly low expectations of Southgate but he’s so far managed to exceed them in the wrong direction, and even more worryingly, is guaranteed to keep his job if we get to the knockouts.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:25 am
by Steve1956
Football's coming home.....
https://youtu.be/n0bFs1xalAE
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:41 am
by diamondpocket
I wouldn't knock Sweden down just yet if we do play them. Not conceded a goal, very tight defensively, great framework and look a bit better than in the WC. Got a cracking young striker up top, too. They might even win the group. Spain / Poland is a big one today to see how that group pans out.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:04 am
by IanMcL
Hapag Lloyd wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:09 am
Whilst agreeing with the majority on this thread that Southgate isn’t up to the job, I do think that we have an over inflated view of how good these England players actually are.
Perhaps it is the players own over inflation.
When Foden gets a Gazza blonde haircut, you know he is deluded.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
by RVclaret
Hapag Lloyd wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:09 am
Whilst agreeing with the majority on this thread that Southgate isn’t up to the job, I do think that we have an over inflated view of how good these England players actually are.
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:34 am
by SalisburyClaret
RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Dead right RV. They’re playing for a Manager who simply does provide them with a tactical plan and they run out of ideas of their own after 20 mins
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:38 am
by Rileybobs
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:56 am
The route is more important than the venue, especially with 25% attendances. Wembley isn't the most ferocious place to visit even when full.
I’ve posted this on another thread but the following are two likely routes to the final.
Finish 1st;
R16 - Germany/Portugal
QF - Spain
SF - Netherlands
F - France
Finish 2nd;
R16 - Slovakia/Sweden
QF - France
SF - Italy/Belgium
F - Portugal
I think that France and Italy have looked two strongest sides thus far, and winning the group means we would most likely avoid both teams until the final. It may be that Southgate would prefer an easier second round tie and see where that takes us though.
We seemed happy to play for the draw last night, which in the scheme of things isn’t a bad result. But it was a thoroughly abject performance that will do nothing for the confidence of our attacking players. I can’t imagine Kane, Foden and Grealish are having the best summer of their lives.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:41 am
by brexit
RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:23 am
We have the Prem's most ruthless and arguably best striker in Kane - fact, check the stats.
Chilwell, Mount and James just played key roles in winning the UCL - knocking out both Madrid teams on the way.
Foden just won PFA Young Player of the Year after starring for City in winning the league. Tripps just won La Liga.
Shaw had a great season for a United team that finished second - created most chances out of any full back in the league.
Sancho has 79 goals/assists in 82 games over the past two seasons. Stones kept Spain's main defender Laporte out of a City team that conceded the fewest goals in the league.
That's just a few off the top of my head, I'm not over inflating these players here just stating facts. They are good players and arguably some of the best attacking talent we have seen for well over a decade. Yet when they play for England under Southgate where does it go? Reece James usually bombs on down the right for Chelsea and whips crosses in - last night he literally turned back in and went for the safe pass, that is the manager. He starts with two rigid CDM's and then wonders why we couldn't break Scotland down?
Is southgate dyche in disguise?
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 am
by taio
Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:38 am
I’ve posted this on another thread but the following are two likely routes to the final.
Finish 1st;
R16 - Germany/Portugal
QF - Spain
SF - Netherlands
F - France
Finish 2nd;
R16 - Slovakia/Sweden
QF - France
SF - Italy/Belgium
F - Portugal
I think that France and Italy have looked two strongest sides thus far, and winning the group means we would most likely avoid both teams until the final. It may be that Southgate would prefer an easier second round tie and see where that takes us though.
We seemed happy to play for the draw last night, which in the scheme of things isn’t a bad result. But it was a thoroughly abject performance that will do nothing for the confidence of our attacking players. I can’t imagine Kane, Foden and Grealish are having the best summer of their lives.
I would always want us to take the easiest path.
But if Southgate played for a draw last night it's just rubbish.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:43 am
by Rileybobs
taio wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:42 am
I would always want us to take the easiest path.
But if Southgate played for a draw last night it's just rubbish.
Agreed. But I don’t think that finishing second even gives us an easier path.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:45 am
by IanMcL
There is still every opportunity for England to progress a long way.
Re: Southgate masterplan
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:45 am
by Winstonswhite
I wouldn’t fancy Sweden last 16 in Copenhagen