Exit at last 16 is a failure

[KRBFC]

the delusion or arrogance of some fans to think that we have a divine right to beat these sides is what leads to such negativity.

Some fans were predicting we'd beat Scotland 4 and 5-0, no wonder they were so disappointed. The previous game against Scotland was 2-2, in a WC qualifier, pretty sure Kane equalized with the last kick of the game.

[kentonclaret]

England have never won the Euros, NEVER.

I was listening to Nigel De Jong speak about England, the over hype and pressure we put on the national team is hilarious. Having never won the tournament before, you would think the expectation would drop down a few notches over time but if anything it just ramps up further. I don't quite understand it, pick a team who have never won the UCL, you wouldn't expect them to suddenly win the UCL.

A failure if we lose to Germany? where do people get this ridiculous ego and expectation from, while shitting on the national team as not good enough? which one is it?

the OP is like many people saying its a failure to lose to Germany, but at the same time is CERTAIN Germany are gonna beat England because Germany are a better side and England are crap. It literally makes zero sense.

If you cannot understand the level of pressure on a nation to perform (or even outperform) at what is basically a HOME tournament (England will rarely leave Wembley) then there isn't much hope really.

England entered the tournament as one of the more fancied nations and people should rightly expect them to perform. Personally, I think that they will probably beat Germany on Tuesday and that the bookies odds will reflect that, having avoided possibly tougher games against France or Portugal.

[Rileybobs]

If you cannot understand the level of pressure on a nation to perform (or even outperform) at what is basically a HOME tournament (England will rarely leave Wembley) then there isn't much hope really.

England entered the tournament as one of the more fancied nations and people should rightly expect them to perform. Personally, I think that they will probably beat Germany on Tuesday and that the bookies odds will reflect that, having avoided possibly tougher games against France or Portugal.

It's really not a home tournament. Up to now Spain, Germany, Italy and Netherlands have all played their games at home so we haven't yet had an advantage on any of those teams. It's also worth noting that the lack of supporters and atmosphere at Wembley during those games hardly gave us a big edge, although I appreciate the familiarity of the stadium would play a part.

The game against Germany is really the game where home advantage could give us the edge. But I'd much rather be facing the likes of Austria or Switzerland at a neutral ground, which is the draw that Italy and France have respectively, for example. Beyond that, the quarter final is in Rome, then back to Wembley for the semis. So I don't think it's fair to burden England with the notion that this is a home tournament seeing as we've drawn one of the tournament's favourites as early as the round of 16.

[kentonclaret]

It's really not a home tournament. Up to now Spain, Germany, Italy and Netherlands have all played their games at home so we haven't yet had an advantage on any of those teams. It's also worth noting that the lack of supporters and atmosphere at Wembley during those games hardly gave us a big edge, although I appreciate the familiarity of the stadium would play a part.

The game against Germany is really the game where home advantage could give us the edge. But I'd much rather be facing the likes of Austria or Switzerland at a neutral ground, which is the draw that Italy and France have respectively, for example. Beyond that, the quarter final is in Rome, then back to Wembley for the semis. So I don't think it's fair to burden England with the notion that this is a home tournament seeing as we've drawn one of the tournament's favourites as early as the round of 16.

Exactly the same comments can be applied to Belgium who have to face Portugal in a last 16 match in Seville. Pre tournament Belgium were 6/1 and Portugal 8/1 (William Hill prices). Unlike England Belgium won't have home advantage.

A crowd of 40k at Wembley on Tuesday will be significant enough.

You can't select who you want to play in a tournament.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Code: Select all

Jun 17, 2000	England 1-0 Germany	Euro 2000 group stage	
Oct 7, 2000	England 0-1 Germany	World Cup 2002 qualifier	
Sep 1, 2001	Germany 1-5 England	World Cup 2002 qualifier	
Aug 22, 2007	England 1-2 Germany	Friendly	
Nov 19, 2008	Germany 1-2 England	Friendly	
Aug 22, 2010	Germany 4-1 England	World Cup 2010 last 16	
Nov 19, 2013	England 0-1 Germany	Friendly	
Mar 26, 2016	Germany 2-3 England	Friendly	
Mar 22, 2017	Germany 1-0 England	Friendly	
Nov 10, 2017	England 0-0 Germany	Friendly	
Jun 29, 2021	England - Germany	Euro 2020 last 16	

Now, if this list (from goal.com) is correct, from all of the matches this century (including friendlies) - we've won 4, lost 5 and drawn 1.
If you only count competitive matches, it 2-2.

That isn't too bad, in my eyes.

Spot on

[cricketfieldclarets]

That is nonsense tbf, I don't think Mings, Shaw, Stones, Phillips or Rice get into any England squad in the last 20 years.

What. You actually believe Ferdinand, Cole, Terry, Gerrard and Lampard were better? Really?

[Targetman]

What. You actually believe Ferdinand, Cole, Terry, Gerrard and Lampard were better? Really?

I do!

[KRBFC]

If you cannot understand the level of pressure on a nation to perform (or even outperform) at what is basically a HOME tournament (England will rarely leave Wembley) then there isn't much hope really.

England entered the tournament as one of the more fancied nations and people should rightly expect them to perform. Personally, I think that they will probably beat Germany on Tuesday and that the bookies odds will reflect that, having avoided possibly tougher games against France or Portugal.

Who is it a home tournament for? Hungary have had home games, Italy, Denmark Scotland etc.... 25% of the crowd barely makes a different, I'd even suggest a home tournament is harder to win with the ramped up pressure to perform. Russia hosted the World Cup, doesn't mean they had a shot at winning it. England have never ever ever ever won the Euros, let that sink in.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I do!

Likewise.

[Spijed]

What. You actually believe Ferdinand, Cole, Terry, Gerrard and Lampard were better? Really?

Terry and Ferdinand were world class defenders.

Mings.......well ere

[cricketfieldclarets]

Terry and Ferdinand were world class defenders.

Mings.......well ere

I know was sarcasm.

[tiger76]

We could and should have beat Brazil in the quarter finals.

Brazil then blew germany away in the final. After beating Turkey in the semis.

Yes I remember that Brazil game with bittersweet memories, we played really well for the 1st half, and took a deserved lead through Owen, then we switched off and allowed them to come into the game, and finally Ronaldinho scored that outrageous chip over Dave Seaman, which he really should have saved, just like 2018, 2002 was a great opportunity missed by England, and we always seem to find a crazy way of crashing out of tournaments, whether it's a silly red card, or a goalkeeper error, or even a bad referring decision, we can't do anything about the latter, but we can control the formers and if we keep the errors to a minimum we have a shot at going a far way in this comp as nobody yet has really stood out, so there's probably still 5/6 teams that will feel they have a genuine shot at lifting the trophy, now the real business starts we'll see who can come to the fore.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yes I remember that Brazil game with bittersweet memories, we played really well for the 1st half, and took a deserved lead through Owen, then we switched off and allowed them to come into the game, and finally Ronaldinho scored that outrageous chip over Dave Seaman, which he really should have saved, just like 2018, 2002 was a great opportunity missed by England, and we always seem to find a crazy way of crashing out of tournaments, whether it's a silly red card, or a goalkeeper error, or even a bad referring decision, we can't do anything about the latter, but we can control the formers and if we keep the errors to a minimum we have a shot at going a far way in this comp as nobody yet has really stood out, so there's probably still 5/6 teams that will feel they have a genuine shot at lifting the trophy, now the real business starts we'll see who can come to the fore.

The soaring heat of a day match was the problem. When we played night matches in a barrable temperature (Denmark / Argentina) we were excellent and yet in the soaring heat of the day we really struggled against Nigeria (i think) to a 0-0 draw when it was just too hot for our English players

[Rileybobs]

Exactly the same comments can be applied to Belgium who have to face Portugal in a last 16 match in Seville. Pre tournament Belgium were 6/1 and Portugal 8/1 (William Hill prices). Unlike England Belgium won't have home advantage.

A crowd of 40k at Wembley on Tuesday will be significant enough.

You can't select who you want to play in a tournament.

Of course. And by the same measure it wouldn't be a failure for whichever of Belgium or Portugal get knocked out on Sunday night.

[tiger76]

The soaring heat of a day match was the problem. When we played night matches in a barrable temperature (Denmark / Argentina) we were excellent and yet in the soaring heat of the day we really struggled against Nigeria (i think) to a 0-0 draw when it was just too hot for our English players

The heat definitely didn't help us, but that's where letting the ball do the work plays a big part, and it's the reason why I suspect European nations will struggle in Qatar, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2022 was a complete role reversal of 2018, and the South Americans dominated the tournament.

[Devils_Advocate]

The heat definitely didn't help us, but that's where letting the ball do the work plays a big part, and it's the reason why I suspect European nations will struggle in Qatar, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2022 was a complete role reversal of 2018, and the South Americans dominated the tournament.

Nope it was the heat. As I said look at our performances in night matches and look at those in the day. Also check out the temperature the day matches we played in.

[kentonclaret]

Who is it a home tournament for? Hungary have had home games, Italy, Denmark Scotland etc.... 25% of the crowd barely makes a different, I'd even suggest a home tournament is harder to win with the ramped up pressure to perform. Russia hosted the World Cup, doesn't mean they had a shot at winning it. England have never ever ever ever won the Euros, let that sink in.

Should England get to the Final they will have played 7 games (6 of those games at home at Wembley Stadium).

The other countries you mention will have hosted home matches but not a potential 6 out of 7.

That does not apply to any other nation, which is why there was all of the fanfare of "England hosting the Euros" and it supposedly being a "wonderful summer of sport in 2020"

Russsa did host the World Cup and surpassed all pre tournament expectations by reaching the Quarter Finals losing to Croatia in a Penalty Shoot Out.

Let that sink in.

[KRBFC]

Should England get to the Final they will have played 7 games (6 of those games at home at Wembley Stadium).

The other countries you mention will have hosted home matches but not a potential 6 out of 7.

That does not apply to any other nation, which is why there was all of the fanfare of "England hosting the Euros" and it supposedly being a "wonderful summer of sport in 2020"

Russsa did host the World Cup and surpassed all pre tournament expectations by reaching the Quarter Finals losing to Croatia in a Penalty Shoot Out.

Let that sink in.

and there was people moaning on here after England topped the group stages without conceding a goal, let that sink in.
Surpassing expectation is hard when the expectation is to win the entire thing every time, something that has never been done. People on here would still be crying about Southgate if he won the entire thing, there's simply no such thing as surpassing expectation when you're England.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Yes I remember that Brazil game with bittersweet memories, we played really well for the 1st half, and took a deserved lead through Owen, then we switched off and allowed them to come into the game, and finally Ronaldinho scored that outrageous chip over Dave Seaman, which he really should have saved, just like 2018, 2002 was a great opportunity missed by England, and we always seem to find a crazy way of crashing out of tournaments, whether it's a silly red card, or a goalkeeper error, or even a bad referring decision, we can't do anything about the latter, but we can control the formers and if we keep the errors to a minimum we have a shot at going a far way in this comp as nobody yet has really stood out, so there's probably still 5/6 teams that will feel they have a genuine shot at lifting the trophy, now the real business starts we'll see who can come to the fore.

Absolutely.

Stand out teams so far Italy and Belgium. Then on paper France and Portugal. We can only play one of them.

[Targetman]

The soaring heat of a day match was the problem. When we played night matches in a barrable temperature (Denmark / Argentina) we were excellent and yet in the soaring heat of the day we really struggled against Nigeria (i think) to a 0-0 draw when it was just too hot for our English players

The Argentina game was played in the Sapporo Dome, an indoor, air conditioned stadium. There was no problem with the heat there.
The game against Nigeria in Osaka was indeed played in very, very humid conditions and we really struggled to inject any pace into that game. It was a very difficult game for the English players, it was incredibly strength sapping just walking round.
I was at both games and remember the conditions very well.

[kentonclaret]

and there was people moaning on here after England topped the group stages without conceding a goal, let that sink in.
Surpassing expectation is hard when the expectation is to win the entire thing every time, something that has never been done. People on here would still be crying about Southgate if he won the entire thing, there's simply no such thing as surpassing expectation when you're England.

Taken from the BBC Sport website following England going out to Belgium in the Semi Finals of the last World Cup in 2018.

"As the England boss has rightly acknowledged in reaching the last four THEY HAVE ALREADY SURPASSED EXPECTATIONS, so now it is about building on the positive ethos and ambition he hopes to carry into the 2020 European Championships and beyond"

So, completely wrong again.

Let it sink in.

[Devils_Advocate]

The Argentina game was played in the Sapporo Dome, an indoor, air conditioned stadium. There was no problem with the heat there.
The game against Nigeria in Osaka was indeed played in very, very humid conditions and we really struggled to inject any pace into that game. It was a very difficult game for the English players, it was incredibly strength sapping just walking round.
I was at both games and remember the conditions very well.

Yep and I think the heat of the Brazil game was similar to that of the Nigeria game. We started off well but no way could we last 90 mins against Brazil in those conditions

[taio]

Some people have high expectations of England but at the same time think they aren't good enough. They emphasise they have no interest in England but at the same time they can't wait to tell people that and get into regular discussion about England. It's weird.

[KRBFC]

Taken from the BBC Sport website following England going out to Belgium in the Semi Finals of the last World Cup in 2018.

"As the England boss has rightly acknowledged in reaching the last four THEY HAVE ALREADY SURPASSED EXPECTATIONS, so now it is about building on the positive ethos and ambition he hopes to carry into the 2020 European Championships and beyond"

So, completely wrong again.

Let it sink in.

I don't understand your point here, Southgate thought the last 4 was surpassing expectations?

What has that got to do with my post of FAN EXPECTATION? the two aren't even remotely the same thing.

[Jakubclaret]

and there was people moaning on here after England topped the group stages without conceding a goal, let that sink in.
Surpassing expectation is hard when the expectation is to win the entire thing every time, something that has never been done. People on here would still be crying about Southgate if he won the entire thing, there's simply no such thing as surpassing expectation when you're England.

The expectations don’t chime with reality, as a footballing nation we are probably 7/10 & the 7 is at a push, if we start to lower expectations & embrace some sort of reality of where we are at on the European & world stage we might not end up so disappointed.

[Spijed]

When you look at what our main European rivals have achieved in both the Euro's and World cup our record is pitiful in comparison. Won one solitary World cup for al our efforts. Surely we should expect far better:

Euro’s

Germany Winner 3 Runners up 3
Spain Winner 3 Runners up 1
France Winner 2 Runners up 1
Italy Winner 1 Runners up 2

World Cup

Germany Winner 4 Runners up 4
Italy Winner 4 Runners up 2
France Winner 2 Runners up 1
Spain Winner 1 Runners up 0

[Rileybobs]

When you look at what our main European rivals have achieved in both the Euro's and World cup our record is pitiful in comparison. Won one solitary World cup for al our efforts. Surely we should expect far better:

Euro’s

Germany Winner 3 Runners up 3
Spain Winner 3 Runners up 1
France Winner 2 Runners up 1
Italy Winner 1 Runners up 2

World Cup

Germany Winner 4 Runners up 4
Italy Winner 4 Runners up 2
France Winner 2 Runners up 1
Spain Winner 1 Runners up 0

So what exactly makes them our main European rivals? What about Belgium, Portugal and the Netherlands for example? You seem to have just compared England to the most successful European nations which isn’t the same as being our main rivals.

[Devils_Advocate]

When you look at what our main European rivals have achieved in both the Euro's and World cup our record is pitiful in comparison. Won one solitary World cup for al our efforts. Surely we should expect far better:

Euro’s

Germany Winner 3 Runners up 3
Spain Winner 3 Runners up 1
France Winner 2 Runners up 1
Italy Winner 1 Runners up 2

World Cup

Germany Winner 4 Runners up 4
Italy Winner 4 Runners up 2
France Winner 2 Runners up 1
Spain Winner 1 Runners up 0

Yes in the last 90 years we should have expected a lot more from England but this perpetual failure at the top level highlights the challenge Southgate faces and rather than heap 90 years worth of failure onto his shoulders we should maybe appreciate what he has done since becoming England manager and get behind him.

Prior to this competition a lot of people on here (including you I think) was scoffing at the idea England could be a solid enough defensive team to stand a chance in this competition and then three clean sheets later and as good a group performance as we've ever produced and the same people are now moaning about us being too cautious and not trying to attack attach attack to entertain people

Bobby Robson is remembered as a great England manager for delivering for the most part mediocracy and failure and at best nothing more than Southgate has already achieved

[Rumbletonk]

In the current squad there are 7 players that played in the CL final, a La liga winner, last seasons PL player of the season, top scorer in the PL, second best for assists in the PL, and 2nd best for assists in the Bundesliga.

We've got no chance

[tiger76]

So what exactly makes them our main European rivals? What about Belgium, Portugal and the Netherlands for example? You seem to have just compared England to the most successful European nations which isn’t the same as being our main rivals.

Our record doesn't even compare favourably to those 3, both the Netherlands and Portugal have won the Euro's in fairly recent history, something which England have never achieved, Belgium for the most part have achieved little until the last decade, and even then they've arguably not been as successful as they should have been given the plethora of talent they have possessed. Even nations such as Sweden may have a better overall record in major tournaments than England, they certainly always seem to figure in the latter stages of EC & WC'S on a regular basis from my memory.

Whichever way you slice it England have never been a major force in international footy, off the top of my head we have 1 WC win on home soil, 2 WC semi-final appearances, and a solitary EC semi-final appearance, once again achieved on home soil, this is partly why most people have little expectation of England ever being successful on the big stage, and therefore when we do get the occasional glimpse of glory the whole nation goes bonkers, before it usually deflates like a lead balloon, this is why I'm not getting excited about our Euro prospects quite yet, now if we beat Germany, and with the fair wind of the draw perhaps this time it'll be different, but I somehow doubt it I'm afraid.

[Rileybobs]

Our record doesn't even compare favourably to those 3, both the Netherlands and Portugal have won the Euro's in fairly recent history, something which England have never achieved, Belgium for the most part have achieved little until the last decade, and even then they've arguably not been as successful as they should have been given the plethora of talent they have possessed. Even nations such as Sweden may have a better overall record in major tournaments than England, they certainly always seem to figure in the latter stages of EC & WC'S on a regular basis from my memory.

Whichever way you slice it England have never been a major force in international footy, off the top of my head we have 1 WC win on home soil, 2 WC semi-final appearances, and a solitary EC semi-final appearance, once again achieved on home soil, this is partly why most people have little expectation of England ever being successful on the big stage, and therefore when we do get the occasional glimpse of glory the whole nation goes bonkers, before it usually deflates like a lead balloon, this is why I'm not getting excited about our Euro prospects quite yet, now if we beat Germany, and with the fair wind of the draw perhaps this time it'll be different, but I somehow doubt it I'm afraid.

I agree with the most part of that, but my point was why are we comparing ourselves with the best nations when we have never been amongst the best nations? You wouldn't compare Burnley's achievements with Man Utds. There have been 'generations' where we underperformed, but for the best part we're generally somewhere between the top 8th-16th teams in the world. For that reason there shouldn't be over-excitement or expectation, and I don't think there is. I suspect the majority of the country, if polled, would expect us to lose against Germany.

[tiger76]

I agree with the most part of that, but my point was why are we comparing ourselves with the best nations when we have never been amongst the best nations? You wouldn't compare Burnley's achievements with Man Utds. There have been 'generations' where we underperformed, but for the best part we're generally somewhere between the top 8th-16th teams in the world. For that reason there shouldn't be over-excitement or expectation, and I don't think there is. I suspect the majority of the country, if polled, would expect us to lose against Germany.

Our benchmark all things being equal seems to be reaching the quarter-finals of tournaments in the main, however obviously that depends on how the draw pans out, usually if we face a major power early on we go out, whereas with a fair crack of the whip as in 2018 we can sometimes go slightly further in the big events, but yes I do agree the crazy expectations will generally lead to disappointment, hence why I don't get caught up in all the flag waving nonsense that happens every few years, and if England fans think things are bad now heaven knows how they'd have coped in the 1970's post Mexico, that was a dreadful period in English footballing history, thankfully I'm too young to have endured that barren spell, but we have had similar droughts recently, with the odd brief bright spot thrown in, so why some people still have the mindset that we have a divine right to be lifting these trophies baffles me, that's not to say we can't compete with these more successful nations now and again, but we certainly shouldn't be expecting to go into major tournaments as favourites as so often happens, now if we could learn to temper our hopes we might find that the players won't play with the weight of the world on their shoulders, and just maybe they'd enjoy it more, and possibly surprise us as too how well they do, and yes I'm well aware a lot of this guff stems from the tabloid press, who generally build England up to be world beaters, and then as soon as we exit any competition they can't wait to leap on the we're useless bandwagon, and all the players and management are clueless mantra.

[timshorts]

So what exactly makes them our main European rivals? What about Belgium, Portugal and the Netherlands for example? You seem to have just compared England to the most successful European nations which isn’t the same as being our main rivals.

Those countries have closer to the same population as England.
The population of Belgium, Portugal, Netherlands is a lot smaller.
England also has the same number of tournament wins as Denmark, Greece, czechosolvakia, so that's good.

[Rileybobs]

Those countries have closer to the same population as England.
The population of Belgium, Portugal, Netherlands is a lot smaller.
England also has the same number of tournament wins as Denmark, Greece, czechosolvakia, so that's good.

What does population have to do with it? There are plenty of countries with a bigger population than England that have a less successful international football team. We’ve consistently got one of, if not the best domestic leagues in world football, but the national team has never been on a par with the likes of Germany and Italy for a sustained period of time.

[Elizabeth]

As I pointed out.

Beat them when it really mattered in a final. Went out on pens after drawing and giving them a great game in both semis we have met. Beat them when they were holders in 2000. Absolutely pasted them in qualifiying for 2002 away with one of the best performances you will ever see. And were abysmal against them in 2010 and home qualifier in 2001.

So all in all fairly even with us winning the most important of all.

It's not even close to it being fairly even in the big tournament final stages against the German teams . Using the argument that we only got beat on penalties holds no water.
The Germans have that big tournament winning mentality over us which you want to ignore on the strength of our World Cup Final win against them 54 years ago.
Tuesday's match is another big tournament game and I want to see us show that we can beat them when it matters. Only then can we say we have started to even it up.

[Elizabeth]

The OP was made in the hope that it would create a decent debate on whether leaving a competition at the last 16 stage should be considered a failure.
Of course it was made with playing the Germans in mind and some posters mistakenly took the line the OP was saying that losing to Germany was a failure. How could it be when we are used to going out to them in the Final stages of big tournaments.
While I am expecting us to get knocked out by them again next Tuesday I have since questioned my assertion that an exit at the last 16 is a failure for England.
I have been convinced by the arguments that England are not a good enough International side for such an exit to be deemed a failure. I think this right goes to international sides like Germany, France and Italy.

[Jakubclaret]

People going on about populations & history haven’t picked up on how many homegrown players domestically get afforded the opportunity to play competitively at the highest level for maximum improvement, it’s been a problem for years in the PL to the detriment internationally, if you was to have a look at Bayern Munich etc or any of the Milan sides you will see a far higher ratio of Germans & Italians playing & improving regularly.

[yTib]

anybody who talks about 'rights' when it comes to competition sport surely misses the point.

[Jakubclaret]

anybody who talks about 'rights' when it comes to competition sport surely misses the point.

Please enlighten us?

[Bin Ont Turf]

Yes in the last 90 years we should have expected a lot more from England but this perpetual failure at the top level highlights the challenge Southgate faces and rather than heap 90 years worth of failure onto his shoulders we should maybe appreciate what he has done since becoming England manager and get behind him.

Prior to this competition a lot of people on here (including you I think) was scoffing at the idea England could be a solid enough defensive team to stand a chance in this competition and then three clean sheets later and as good a group performance as we've ever produced and the same people are now moaning about us being too cautious and not trying to attack attach attack to entertain people

Bobby Robson is remembered as a great England manager for delivering for the most part mediocracy and failure and at best nothing more than Southgate has already achieved

Is Robson remembered as a great England manager? He's remembered as a very good England manager who was cheated and unlucky in TWO World Cups. He also wasn't handed the England job, he'd been a manager for around 14 years before he got the England job, and he'd won cups.
Not to mention that he had a bit more charisma about him than that of a damp waistcoat.

It's not all Southgate's fault as to why a lot of folk find it difficult to like and relate to the England team at the moment.
I mean, Hollywood goalkeeper, flakey centre backs, a midfielder in Rice who although we keep getting told is the bees knees, a lot of us can't see it, and Sterling, he's so difficult to like it's like he's playing for the opposition.

I think we all know the difference between the team that got to the semi finals of the World Cup in 2018 and this team.

Not that anything I've said will stop me cheering them on and wanting us to win it.

[yTib]

Please enlighten us?

i was specifically talking about elizabeth's comment that germany, france and italy have the right to progress.

this surely goes against the ethos of competition?

[Jakubclaret]

i was specifically talking about elizabeth's comment that germany, france and italy have the right to progress.

this surely goes against the ethos of competition?

If you base it upon previous successes & how seeded they are, the bookmaker will take all that into account when reserving the right in drawing the odds up, that right as been earnt historically so it’s just expected it will happen, that’s why it’s a shock when 1 of the heavyweights get eliminated early on. I wouldn’t describe it as a right but should be treat with respect.

[yTib]

I wouldn’t describe it as a right

so we're agreed.

[Jakubclaret]

so we're agreed.

I guess so, I’m not sure the sense it was intended, maybe Elizabeth could explain further.

[Elizabeth]

i was specifically talking about elizabeth's comment that germany, france and italy have the right to progress.

this surely goes against the ethos of competition?

You are bringing in ethics.
I’ll try and make it more clear for you. It’s about the expectations of the fans of these countries being higher than English fans.
In this country there is the perception among some fans that we are a big footballing international force. It has been argued by others on this thread that we having nothing to back that up other than a World Cup win over 50 years ago and a couple of semi final appearances .
The nations I mentioned have had much more success at the big tournaments and because of this their fans have higher expectations and as such are likely to regard a last 16 departure as failure

[cricketfieldclarets]

It's not even close to it being fairly even in the big tournament final stages against the German teams . Using the argument that we only got beat on penalties holds no water.
The Germans have that big tournament winning mentality over us which you want to ignore on the strength of our World Cup Final win against them 54 years ago.
Tuesday's match is another big tournament game and I want to see us show that we can beat them when it matters. Only then can we say we have started to even it up.

Good night liz.

[Elizabeth]

That’s very kind of you . My name is Elizabeth, I only let my friends call me Liz

[yTib]

I’ll try and make it more clear for you.

crikey next you'll be patting me on the arse and telling me to do the washing up.

it was you who introduced ethics when you talked about rights.

it's the same sort of ugly language that has us hearing folk describing someone being entitled to go down.

nobody has the right to win; you have to earn it.

i know the new breed of football 'fans' wouldn't have the first clue what i'm on about but i'm on the cusp of not caring any more.

[Elizabeth]

crikey next you'll be patting me on the arse and telling me to do the washing up.

it was you who introduced ethics when you talked about rights.

it's the same sort of ugly language that has us hearing folk describing someone being entitled to go down.

nobody has the right to win; you have to earn it.

i know the new breed of football 'fans' wouldn't have the first clue what i'm on about but i'm on the cusp of not caring any more.

I think you are misinterpreting and putting too much emphasis on my use of the word ‘right’ in the post you originally referred to.
Now if you continue being arsey I’ll have to do more than pat you on the arse.

[yTib]

INow if you continue being arsey I’ll have to do more than pat you on the arse.

it's a date