Ideally we'd have got one in during the summer, but surely if things don't drastically improve in this area we'll need to recruit in the next window.

How many times are we going to witness opposition players simply strolling through our midfield, it's becoming far too common now, and other managers will be well aware of our shortcomings in the engine room.

In the meantime would going to a 5 make us more solid, and if nothing else at least ensure we can stay in games, instead of constantly being blown away in the space of a few minutes.

For all of our faults we've always been hard to beat, but if we're being honest you can't make that claim right now, and as good as our back 5 have been as a unit, they aren't superhuman and can only absorb so much pressure before creaking.

To quote a well known 90's phrase we need to go "back to basics", and make ourselves awkward to play against again, as entertaining as a lot of our play has been to watch this season, the stark facts are we are struggling to even pick up draws, never mind wins.

And it's apparent to everyone that this rigid 4-4-2 has now been found out, so with the new additions, we should be able to be more adaptable in games.

If we were to deploy a lone striker it would probably be Wood, although Vydra might also be an option, either that or try Dwight or Vyds in the number 10 role, plainly what we're doing ATM isn't working, so in that sense we have nothing to lose in trying something different in my humble view.

We were trying to get a cm of sorts in during the transfer window weren't we?
I wouldn't be surprised if something happens in Jan, especially if Stephens is OOC next summer along with Cork I think.

You aren’t the one who needs to be convinced that we “aren’t working” at the moment…

Going for 4-5-1 with wood on his own up top, we might as well just go 5-5, at least then we’d have ten outfield players on the go. Playing wood on his own is like starting one player down.

If we are doing well enough come January we won't sign a central midfielder and if we aren't we will struggle to attract one that would make a difference.

Cork stephens and brownhill arent mid table quality
So yes

Some good thoughts but in reality it’s all fanciful stuff.

We will struggle to sign anybody in January and I’d probably rate our chances of attracting someone who can come in and immediately improve us as next to zero.

As for the change of formation… well we all know by now that the manager wants us to play as we are. It won’t change.

Hopefully not. Our current 4 aren’t bad, just nothing special. I think there has been a ridiculous reaction to losing to a good Everton side who are joint top. We didn’t even play badly. Brownhill gets a lot of hate in the form of “not premier league standard” for someone who was wanted by Leeds in the summer. His numbers at this level are good, wins the ball back very well - a poor mans kante. It’s not his job to unlock defences, although I do believe he can and will improve on the ball.
Westwood has been good for years now but has the odd bad game, we know that.
Cork is reliable but he is a little slow and ponderous which is why he’s 3rd choice. Still a decent player at this level.
Stephens has plenty to offer technically if not athletically but realistically he won’t play a whole lot.

All in all it’s an area I’m sure we want to improve, but I doubt we can afford to until next summer, where it will take a marquee signing. Strikers obviously also need refreshing at some point too.

Problem that needs rectifying now is Taylor, who I really really rate, but he needs to find some form as he’s leaked goals this season.

We need a striker more than a CM, but ideally both.

When Stephens is fit that will be like a new signing.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:11 pm

Some good thoughts but in reality it’s all fanciful stuff.

We will struggle to sign anybody in January and I’d probably rate our chances of attracting someone who can come in and immediately improve us as next to zero.

As for the change of formation… well we all know by now that the manager wants us to play as we are. It won’t change.

Do you find it hard to get out of bed in the morning?

I'd quite like to see a 3 5 2

Tarks Mee Collins

Cornet Westwood Brownhill Cork Taylor

Wood vydra

ceborame wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:08 pm

I'd quite like to see a 3 5 2

Tarks Mee Collins

Cornet Westwood Brownhill Cork Taylor

Wood vydra

YEAH!!!! Let’s drop McNeil!

Realistically the only way we’d play something like that would be

Pope
Collins Tarks Mee
Lowton Brownhill Westwood Taylor
Cornet Wood Mcniel

Which would be a 5-4-1 out of possession but 3-4-3 in possession. This looks good, but dyche wouldn’t do it and I’m not sure if it would actually work.

This negativity re Josh is sickening he gets in more blocks and interceptions that the rest of midfield together.

To answer the original question, yes and have done for the last 2 seasons. Its the seat of many of our problems. They create nothing for the strikers and are far too easily by passed by a pacy midfielder so don't protect the back 4. Last season West Ham, Newcastle and Leeds all ran straight through the middle and scored. Everton did the same and to a lesser extent Brighton, though both crosses came from our left.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:47 pm

as entertaining as a lot of our play has been to watch this season

No. No it hasn’t.

Herts Clarets wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:32 am

To answer the original question, yes and have done for the last 2 seasons. Its the seat of many of our problems. They create nothing for the strikers and are far too easily by passed by a pacy midfielder so don't protect the back 4. Last season West Ham, Newcastle and Leeds all ran straight through the middle and scored. Everton did the same and to a lesser extent Brighton, though both crosses came from our left.

Yep you have absolutely nailed that. I have just looked at the stats on Fibrec, our CMs average 7 progressive passes a game between them with Westwood averaging around 5. That is less than one progressive pass every ten minutes. This is a position that is crying out for some quality.

Taffy on the wing wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:05 pm

Do you find it hard to get out of bed in the morning?

With you lying next to me Taff… always.

No because we only play two. Unless we sign someone with the strength of 2 players we’ll still be over run in CM. And we don’t have £50m.

A number 10 might be a happy medium between a new CM and a new forward.
We need both before the start of 2022 season.

Way too many ageing players that are OOC and/or no longer good enough.

But we did know this rebuild was creeping up on us, but like I said at the end if last season, we have just got to hope ALK arrived in time as it's a big rebuild

We had a very good summer window, a number 10 off being absolutely amazing, so if we can address that in january hopefully we have just enough again to retain our premier league status, and we can have another mini rebuild again in the summer.

IMO we had 3 windows Summer 21, Jan 22 and summer 22 to get in 6 starters for the 2022 season, we are halfway there now, so well on track.

Hopefully then that gives us options of 451/433 type options and we can see if Mr Dyche can adapt and approach depending on opposition or change in game to counteract the opposition.

Previously he hasnt had the backing or the options, now it seems he is getting backed and will have the options.

A strong bench and game changing substitutions or changes in formation will be a welcome bonus I think we all would love to see.

To coin a phrase of someone, exciting times!

MACCA wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:16 am

A number 10 might be a happy medium between a new CM and a new forward.
We need both before the start of 2022 season.

Way too many ageing players that are OOC and/or no longer good enough.

But we did know this rebuild was creeping up on us, but like I said at the end if last season, we have just got to hope ALK arrived in time as it's a big rebuild

We had a very good summer window, a number 10 off being absolutely amazing, so if we can address that in january hopefully we have just enough again to retain our premier league status, and we can have another mini rebuild again in the summer.

IMO we had 3 windows Summer 21, Jan 22 and summer 22 to get in 6 starters for the 2022 season, we are halfway there now, so well on track.

Hopefully then that gives us options of 451/433 type options and we can see if Mr Dyche can adapt and approach depending on opposition or change in game to counteract the opposition.

Previously he hasnt had the backing or the options, now it seems he is getting backed and will have the options.

A strong bench and game changing substitutions or changes in formation will be a welcome bonus I think we all would love to see.

To coin a phrase of someone, exciting times!

To be fair Macca we had a much better summer but in reality we have signed one first team starter in ALKs two transfer windows. I wouldn’t exactly say they have transformed our recruitment.

Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:39 am

This negativity re Josh is sickening he gets in more blocks and interceptions that the rest of midfield together.

Shame he’s not very good in other areas

aggi wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:58 pm

When Stephens is fit that will be like a new signing.

Classic!

That made me laugh!

CM is the weakest area of the pitch for me and has been for some time. We need to strengthen here as soon as we can. As for Brownhill it’s a message board and players will be assessed on here. So far he hasn’t looked remotely good enough in a central two. It’s alright pointing out blocks interceptions and running off the ball but he doesnt actually offer anything else. He may improve but I’m not convinced

I posted yesterday to say that Jack Wilshere is a free agent, and been training in Italy, so fairly fit. Joey Barton was a huge risk when we signed him but look how that worked out-one of Dyche's best signings. Maybe a 6 month contract and a chance to stay in the PL. Probably not far off De Four for being injury prone, and a better person I believe than Drinkwater. If Westwood or Cork get a bad injury we are screwed

The Centre midfield have played better this year than for along time, but I'm always for upgrading if possible. They have controlled the game for over an hour in 3 games and the first half at Liverpool.

The problems are the two strikers are desperately out of form and never create chances for each other.

The two Central defenders get caught out of position so much it's untrue. If Ben Mee wants to play left back, then let him, for the u23s.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:38 am

I posted yesterday to say that Jack Wilshere is a free agent, and been training in Italy, so fairly fit. Joey Barton was a huge risk when we signed him but look how that worked out-one of Dyche's best signings. Maybe a 6 month contract and a chance to stay in the PL. Probably not far off De Four for being injury prone, and a better person I believe than Drinkwater. If Westwood or Cork get a bad injury we are screwed

When we signed Defour the 2 previous seasons he played 39 and 42 games for Anderlecht

Jacks figures for the are last 6 seasons are :-

17 games
1 games
10 games
8 games
27 games
14 games

To say he is not far off Defour for being injury prone is way off.

Josh and Westy have been superb, for an hour, this season. What they need is Jack Cork to come on and help them out for the last 30 minutes. We would have been on 9 points if that had happened.
Totally outplayed Allan and Doukoure in a 2 v 2. How much did they cost?

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:46 am

When we signed Defour the 2 previous seasons he played 39 and 42 games for Anderlecht

Jacks figures for the are last 6 seasons are :-

17 games
1 games
10 games
8 games
27 games
14 games

To say he is not far off Defour for being injury prone is way off.

I agree they don't look great, however I could show you some stats over three seasons for Danny Ings when he left Burnley, and based on these you would not have gone near him. Can you think of a better option to Wilshere from CM's out of contract. Consider what Stephens cost us in fee(and it went up when we avoided relegation) and wages, and see how often he has started for us, then taking a punt on JW does not look so stupid

I suspect that we will be making a few signings including CM. I think Pace had already said that they are trying to catch up on team investment missed on the last few years (or words to that effect).

Just hope that the league position at that time is in a good position to maintain this investment.

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:14 am

I agree they don't look great, however I could show you some stats over three seasons for Danny Ings when he left Burnley, and based on these you would not have gone near him. Can you think of a better option to Wilshere from CM's out of contract. Consider what Stephens cost us in fee(and it went up when we avoided relegation) and wages, and see how often he has started for us, then taking a punt on JW does not look so stupid

I wouldn't touch Wilshere with a barge pole. There are better options already here and under contract.

I'm sure the recruitment is working on this area, but these creative players come at such a high premiuim. As SD said lets see what Cornet can do. I was a bit surprised at that comment. I thought he might already know.

taio wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:24 am

I wouldn't touch Wilshere with a barge pole. There are better options already here and under contract.

Are our "better CM options" based on their performances in our last 24 games ?? And what if one gets a serious injury ??

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:29 am

Are our "better CM options" based on their performances in our last 24 games ?? And what if one gets a serious injury ??

Yes. We play one of the other two. Not ideal but can't see how Wilshere is the answer.

Stayingup wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 am

I'm sure the recruitment is working on this area, but these creative players come at such a high premiuim. As SD said lets see what Cornet can do. I was a bit surprised at that comment. I thought he might already know.

Would be interesting to know if Dyche has seen him play other than YouTube highlights and stats

More likely the idea for this signing has come from the recruitment team and A1 source

We know how SD feels about the Vydra signing which was allegedly done by Garlick

But it's early days with Pace, so he can't be seen to be against such signings

People may think he has final say on all players coming in but he doesn't sign the pay cheques. I think Pace will have had his own say on this transfer as well

Its a while since I posted due to one or two other pressing issues. However I have, lets say observed from afar.I'm 'chomping at the bit' to have my opinion on Brownhill. I can't for the life of me understand all the negativity around him or his performances. To me he's first class and will only get better. His distribution could be better at times but thats in part down to the lack of runners around him. I think our main problem at present and has been for a while is our inability to adapt to opposition change during games. Monday night being a prime example. Again just my opinion.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:19 am

To be fair Macca we had a much better summer but in reality we have signed one first team starter in ALKs two transfer windows. I wouldn’t exactly say they have transformed our recruitment.

Cornet and Robert's will be starters, so thats 2.
Collins was brought in to be groomed and ready to start when Tarky leaves and in the mean time is far better back up than Long and Dunne was last season.
Hennessy is far better back up than BPF and Norris so again improvement on last season.

Lennon an emergency 4th choice winger, no upgrade or downgrade from Brady.

We also had other irons in the fire that just didnt quite come off.
I'd say it's been a very good window where we have strengthened a few key areas, we just didnt het the final peice ir 2 we wanted and needed.

I'm not having they had 2 windows either, they came in in New Years Eve and had 31 days to identify and get players in, in what was a completely new multi billion pound business and the crazy world of premier league football that none of them had experience in.

If you're judging them or including the January window in their mistakes or inactivity you're being extreamely harsh.

Even if you want to use the Jan window as a black dot against their name, then they've still done more for the club as a whole in 9 months than "the fans who had only the clubs best interests at heart" had done in the last 2 years...

aggi wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:58 pm

When Stephens is fit that will be like a new signing.

Joking apart DS is a defensive midfielder and in the 3 games we've been leading would have been a good option to bring on should he have been fit. Would certainly have offered a bit more protection and solidity.

I know I'll get mocked, but I've watched this lad quite a bit since we were first linked with him and he's certainly not the useless waste of a wage many on here regularly shout from the roof tops.

MACCA wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:12 am

Cornet and Robert's will be starters, so thats 2.
Collins was brought in to be groomed and ready to start when Tarky leaves and in the mean time is far better back up than Long and Dunne was last season.
Hennessy is far better back up than BPF and Norris so again improvement on last season.

Lennon an emergency 4th choice winger, no upgrade or downgrade from Brady.

We also had other irons in the fire that just didnt quite come off.
I'd say it's been a very good window where we have strengthened a few key areas, we just didnt het the final peice ir 2 we wanted and needed.

I'm not having they had 2 windows either, they came in in New Years Eve and had 31 days to identify and get players in, in what was a completely new multi billion pound business and the crazy world of premier league football that none of them had experience in.

If you're judging them or including the January window in their mistakes or inactivity you're being extreamely harsh.

Even if you want to use the Jan window as a black dot against their name, then they've still done more for the club as a whole in 9 months than "the fans who had only the clubs best interests at heart" had done in the last 2 years...

It might have to soon for the new owners to establish targets but you can bet your bottom dollar Dyche will have had a list he wanted.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:08 am

Yep you have absolutely nailed that. I have just looked at the stats on Fibrec, our CMs average 7 progressive passes a game between them with Westwood averaging around 5. That is less than one progressive pass every ten minutes. This is a position that is crying out for some quality.

It's pointless quoting that stat without any context. How does it compare to CM's from other teams?

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:46 am

It's pointless quoting that stat without any context. How does it compare to CM's from other teams?

We are in the bottom 17% in the league in that respect.

MACCA wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:12 am

Cornet and Robert's will be starters, so thats 2.
Collins was brought in to be groomed and ready to start when Tarky leaves and in the mean time is far better back up than Long and Dunne was last season.
Hennessy is far better back up than BPF and Norris so again improvement on last season.

Lennon an emergency 4th choice winger, no upgrade or downgrade from Brady.

We also had other irons in the fire that just didnt quite come off.
I'd say it's been a very good window where we have strengthened a few key areas, we just didnt het the final peice ir 2 we wanted and needed.

I'm not having they had 2 windows either, they came in in New Years Eve and had 31 days to identify and get players in, in what was a completely new multi billion pound business and the crazy world of premier league football that none of them had experience in.

If you're judging them or including the January window in their mistakes or inactivity you're being extreamely harsh.

Even if you want to use the Jan window as a black dot against their name, then they've still done more for the club as a whole in 9 months than "the fans who had only the clubs best interests at heart" had done in the last 2 years...

Robert’s is a good player but I highly doubt we will see him starting this season. Possibly next year when Lowton has deteriorated a bit.

So yes in reality we have signed 1 player in two windows that improve the starting eleven.

The other players are good back ups but in reality will probably have less than 10 appearances this season (if that).

We need the whole spine apart from the goalkeeper! So a CF, CM and CB which at the bare minimum would be 40m to 60m in total so not going to happen.

I like Brownhill, but not sure he and Westwood compliment each other in a 2. I think Brownhill would look better along side Cork. But I would also say that Westwood provides more (mainly from set pieces) and also plays better with Cork. I would go with Westwood and Cork again for now, Givent he run of form, but Brownhill still good player with something to offer and room for improvement. also worth remembering that 50% of Brownhill's matches for us have probably been out of position out wide. He will get better and improve to the level of the Prem with game time in his preferred position.

We do need to invest in CM position though, Westy, Cork & Stephens aren't getting any younger.

This is assuming Cornet turns out to be a good player for us (no guarantees), but McNeil moved into the number 10 behind Wood, could be an option. He'd need to drop back and help in midfield though when we don't have the ball. So it would be more a 4-4-1-1.

Collins was brought in to be groomed and ready to start when Tarky leaves and in the meantime is far better back up than Long and Dunne was last season.

Going off his age, the price paid and the good things said about him before the purchase, in the long-term he should be a decent premier league player with a bit of luck and decent coaching but short-term, there has been absolutely no evidence of that what's so ever performance-wise in pre-season that in the meantime, he is a better back up than Long and Dunne!

kazza wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:25 am

This is assuming Cornet turns out to be a good player for us (no guarantees), but McNeil moved into the number 10 behind Wood, could be an option. He'd need to drop back and help in midfield though when we don't have the ball. So it would be more a 4-4-1-1.

More likely 4-4-1-1 with Brownhill in behind Wood, like we did with Hendrick a few years back. Capable of dropping deeper and slot in with Westy & Cork back in CM to provide solidity. Cornett & McNeil on either wings with pace and creativity. Could work.

I'm unsure if it's a player issue as opposed to a tactical one. How we set up is well known, as is our refusal to change from it.

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:46 am

It's pointless quoting that stat without any context. How does it compare to CM's from other teams?

Westwood is OK. The rest not so much (you may need to Right click and show image in new tab).

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:16 am

Robert’s is a good player but I highly doubt we will see him starting this season. Possibly next year when Lowton has deteriorated a bit.

So yes in reality we have signed 1 player in two windows that improve the starting eleven.

The other players are good back ups but in reality will probably have less than 10 appearances this season (if that).

That’s a fair accurate assessment, when some people were rating the transfer window highly in reality in terms of starting positions it was poor, beefing up the bench higher.

BigChaCha wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:32 am

Going off his age, the price paid and the good things said about him before the purchase, in the long-term he should be a decent premier league player with a bit of luck and decent coaching but short-term, there has been absolutely no evidence of that what's so ever performance-wise in pre-season that in the meantime, he is a better back up than Long and Dunne!

Played well against Newcastle in cup game. I think everyone knows that Collins is better than Long.