ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

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ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:36 pm

Brendan Rodgers & Sean Dyche on today's game

See link
https://www.uptheclarets.com/weve-got-t ... rformances

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by jurek » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:07 am

I'm glad Dyche has said we've got to turn these situations
into winning performances. That suggests he's got a role to play and unfortunately
I think he may have got it wrong with substitutions.
We needed another midfielder or defender to come on and if so we may have been
able to prevent them scoring again. But he couldn't resist bringing on Barnes.
In the position we were in at the time t'wasn't the best decision.
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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by jojomk1 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:22 am

It's becoming worryingly repetitive
We have a good first half and take a lead
The opposition manager then recognises the need to change things around for the second half.
We end up defending too deep, being overrun in midfield with hopeless long punts to try and relieve the pressure
Dyche just stands on the touchline watching the inevitable happen yet does little or nothing about it from a tactical point of view
He needs to realise our players are too old to keep up with the pace of the second half and the midfield needs an extra body to try and take some control of our own destiny
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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:30 am

I'm not sure age has anything to do with it, who is too old to keep up? Westy isn't exactly a pensioner. Brownhill, Dwight both young, JBG only had 45 mins.
It's a tactical issue & Dyche is as uncomfortable as hell to change a tactical system if they haven't worked on it prior and everyone seemingly knows their jobs. We clearly cannot play like this for 90 minutes because the same things are happening and naturally mistakes will be made when there is so much pressure to absorb. He should realise we are not what we were defensively. As always, he is making decisions based on past achievements and reputations, not on the present, and that is becoming an Achilles Heel for him, the team and ultimately the club. We should be 4 points better off in mid-table by now.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by MACCA » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:49 am

We've lost 10 points now from winning positions which is both a good and bad sign.
Least we are getting our noses infront and showing we have the tools to go and win a game, however its keeping the back door shut.

In those games we have gone in front, and Arsenal too, we have let in goals that were totally avoidable, and I know all goals are unavoidable, but with our previous record of being tight at the back and defending well I'm sure we will be extreamely disappointed with the decision making.

I've no doubt if we keep playing as we are we will start getting a few wins on the board, however make no mistake next week Is a massive and must win game going into the international break, if for nothing else than to just get the monkey off our backs, stop all the no win chat and to just lift the confidence around the place with the tough run of fixtures coming up.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:51 am

Whilst I’m sure Dyche will be looking at how he can improve in these situations, I do think some people are over simplifying things. Shoving an extra body in midfield to see out a lead won’t necessarily do that. Leicester have better players than us and we’re trying everything they could to equalise.

I feared the worst going into the final ten minutes but equally didn’t feel like Leicester were overly threatening. The goal didn’t come about because we were a man short in midfield, we let Vardy in behind us and played him onside. Dyche obviously thinks that keeping two up front alleviates more pressure and takes advantage of tiring defenders. The game is full of fine margins as Dyche often reminds us, and Chris Wood was inches away from winning the game from an assist from Barnes.

With all that said, not being able to hold on to leads is becoming a worrying trend and one we need to reverse - be that through different tactical changes from the bench or better game management on the pitch, which I feel is equally as big of an issue.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:53 am

MACCA wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:49 am
We've lost 10 points now from winning positions which is both a good and bad sign.
Least we are getting our noses infront and showing we have the tools to go and win a game, however its keeping the back door shut.

In those games we have gone in front, and Arsenal too, we have let in goals that were totally avoidable, and I know all goals are unavoidable, but with our previous record of being tight at the back and defending well I'm sure we will be extreamely disappointed with the decision making.

I've no doubt if we keep playing as we are we will start getting a few wins on the board, however make no mistake next week Is a massive and must win game going into the international break, if for nothing else than to just get the monkey off our backs, stop all the no win chat and to just lift the confidence around the place with the tough run of fixtures coming up.
Agree with this. I feel more positive than at times last season as we’re generally playing well and approaching games on the front foot. The wins will come, but it’s vital that they start to do so soon.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by jdrobbo » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 am

Two goals, with slipped passes through for Vardy. I too, agreed that the substitutions towards the end didn’t help. It’s how Leicester score most of their goals and we weren’t prepared to try change.

I’ve noticed that Brentford have had all of their success since turning to a back three… I would like to have seen us revert to a back three, with Collins coming into the backline, but that’s not something we could just do cold: we need to actually become comfortable playing in different formations. This is key to our continued evolution, especially if we’re trying to sign a higher calibration of player.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:36 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:51 am
Whilst I’m sure Dyche will be looking at how he can improve in these situations, I do think some people are over simplifying things. Shoving an extra body in midfield to see out a lead won’t necessarily do that. Leicester have better players than us and we’re trying everything they could to equalise.

I feared the worst going into the final ten minutes but equally didn’t feel like Leicester were overly threatening. The goal didn’t come about because we were a man short in midfield, we let Vardy in behind us and played him onside. Dyche obviously thinks that keeping two up front alleviates more pressure and takes advantage of tiring defenders. The game is full of fine margins as Dyche often reminds us, and Chris Wood was inches away from winning the game from an assist from Barnes.

With all that said, not being able to hold on to leads is becoming a worrying trend and one we need to reverse - be that through different tactical changes from the bench or better game management on the pitch, which I feel is equally as big of an issue.
OK, so please share with us the evidence that keeping 2 up is working, this season & last season in the 2nd half when leading. How many times have we held onto a lead from last season & this & won? Is the plan working? Are our strikers taking advantage of tiring defenders & are we scoring goals at the end of games? I don't think we are & I'd guess the stats would back this up although I don't have ant off hand.
The extra man is to try and fill in some pitch space as when you see the goals, particularly this season, the midfield area is wide open. We can't let teams like Leeds & Leicester have so much space to attack and get in between us. The margins are that fine we cannot afford to make even one mistake coz you get punished as we've seen this season. You make your own luck

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:43 am

diamondpocket wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:36 am
OK, so please share with us the evidence that keeping 2 up is working, this season & last season in the 2nd half when leading. How many times have we held onto a lead from last season & this & won? Is the plan working? Are our strikers taking advantage of tiring defenders & are we scoring goals at the end of games? I don't think we are & I'd guess the stats would back this up although I don't have ant off hand.
The extra man is to try and fill in some pitch space as when you see the goals, particularly this season, the midfield area is wide open. We can't let teams like Leeds & Leicester have so much space to attack and get in between us. The margins are that fine we cannot afford to make even one mistake coz you get punished as we've seen this season. You make your own luck
The only evidence I have is that we are still in the Premier League after a number of seasons where we have generally played with two centre forwards for the entire duration of games. It doesn’t always work, and we’re going through a spell where it isn’t, but simply putting an extra man in midfield won’t automatically prevent a team like Leicester, with better players, from scoring against us. And if it was that simple I’m quite confident that a manager of Dyche’s intelligence and ability would have figured it out by now.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:08 am

It was obvious early in the 2nd half we needed an extra midfielder in there. Cork should have been on if not to replace an ineffective Wood, an injured Vydra then he should have been replacing Brownhill who was very wasteful with his passing.

He might argue his plans were only inches away from working at the end, but I don't think Dyche is getting the best out of this team at the minute.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:33 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:43 am
The only evidence I have is that we are still in the Premier League after a number of seasons where we have generally played with two centre forwards for the entire duration of games. It doesn’t always work, and we’re going through a spell where it isn’t, but simply putting an extra man in midfield won’t automatically prevent a team like Leicester, with better players, from scoring against us. And if it was that simple I’m quite confident that a manager of Dyche’s intelligence and ability would have figured it out by now.
The issue is: if you never try it, you'll never know!! We've done it a couple of times over the last 18 months but always started with that formation if I remember well (UTD away being one), but never when trying to defend a lead.

And personally, I don't care what happened beyond last season & pre-Covid. Things change fast in this league, what worked one year won't always the next. It's clear this group of players can't hold onto leads but can get into a lead so something is working, clearly.
I don't care if Barnes & Wood were a good partnership 3 seasons ago when they were strong together. They have shown in the last 12 months they are not that anymore & have had enough time to show it.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Rowls » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:47 am

If we don't start turning these good performances into wins then we need to change things up.

Whether that's a change of personnel or formation doesn't matter - We've can't keep on failing to pick up points from winning positions.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by clarethomer » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:47 am

jdrobbo wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 am
Two goals, with slipped passes through for Vardy. I too, agreed that the substitutions towards the end didn’t help. It’s how Leicester score most of their goals and we weren’t prepared to try change.
They do this to better teams than us too. Vardy has made his career of using his pace and his teammates know that if they put a ball through, he will cause issues.

Bringing Barnes on was to stretch the team and give an outlet to hold the ball up. I don't necessarily agree with it because Barnes does appear to me as being less effective than he once was at doing this, but I also don't think adding another defender or midfielder would have helped as it would have just applied more pressure onto us.

We just don't seem to be anywhere near as fit as we were say 2-3 years ago. Unless it's just other teams have got fitter, or we are pressing more and that is taking its toll? Whatever it is, my observations are that the opposition seems to have more energy later in the game and we take 10-20mins of battering where we have no escape.

We have conceded more goals at a period of the game where we were usually comfortable to see games out and frustrate. Maybe I'm over analysing the situation. Poor starts are nothing new for us so no need to panic but we have to get some traction and for me and to get a bit of confidence and into the habit of winning games.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by kazza » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:49 am

Cornet going off seemed to change the game too, not just the opposition changing their tactics.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by ecc » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:39 pm

Didn't see the game but I would have been absolutely delighted with a point before a ball being kicked.

We desperately needed to get a result of some sort asap and a draw at Leicester is excellent.

Fully understand the disappointment but I prefer to take the positives.

I haven't seen us play this season and know that Barnes is the whipping boy but at least he was there to nod on the ball for the Kiwi. Chris was offside but we surely can't blame that on Barnes (or can we?).

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by quoonbeatz » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:04 pm

Despite not playing as well in the 2nd half, we still looked comfortable and Leicester didn't pose too much of a threat. Not for the first time this season, the game turned on Barnes coming on. Should have brought Cork on and gone 451 with Brownhill pushed slightly further forward, to shore things up.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Stayingup » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:20 pm

Question is why are we letting leads slip and not winning from leading positions?

Some of it has been bad luck, some has been VAR and some has been game management. Certanily Brighton, Leeds and yesterday were very winnable games and we should have shored up and defended our lead each time.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Blatherwickstattoo » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm

jojomk1 wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:22 am
It's becoming worryingly repetitive
We have a good first half and take a lead
The opposition manager then recognises the need to change things around for the second half.
We end up defending too deep, being overrun in midfield with hopeless long punts to try and relieve the pressure
Dyche just stands on the touchline watching the inevitable happen yet does little or nothing about it from a tactical point of view
He needs to realise our players are too old to keep up with the pace of the second half and the midfield needs an extra body to try and take some control of our own destiny

Spot on

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:38 pm

We do have some tactical geniuses on here.

Such a shame that Dyche doesn't listen to them.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by MACCA » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:00 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:38 pm
We do have some tactical geniuses on here.

Such a shame that Dyche doesn't listen to them.
He does sometimes

Mee to CB and Ward at LB for instance in the 23 unbeaten season
Heating in goal instead if Hart that saved our season
Giving Vydra a run in the side last season
Cornet in early v Arsenal changed the game
Cornet and Vydra to start Saturday to play a better brand if football

So they are things, options or opinions out there people can see which the manager cant, doesn't or wont try, yet when the manager does eventually try and it works.

There isn't a man in earth who never gets things wrong or is right all the time, not even Mr Dyche.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:10 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:38 pm
We do have some tactical geniuses on here.

Such a shame that Dyche doesn't listen to them.

The game as a whole in this country could be so much better if they got involved in professional football, having all the answers but offering nothing to the game seems such a waste.
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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:44 am

Football Messageboards. They are not for everyone.
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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by jrgbfc » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:07 am

fidelcastro wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:38 pm
We do have some tactical geniuses on here.

Such a shame that Dyche doesn't listen to them.
There's also plenty of people who don't really understand how internet forums work.
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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:09 am

Jesus, if you're criticised for giving your two pennies worth of a football FAN messageboard then we might as well just go & cut out our brains, tongues and be zombies to join the rest who can't take reading a few people's opinions! You blood sucking brainless numpties, I wish you'd bugger off and stop making people feel guilty for talking about Burnley & football.
Claretonthecoast, yeah because you're personal offence on the post above really offers so much insight and intellect!!

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:12 am

diamondpocket wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:09 am
Jesus, if you're criticised for giving your two pennies worth of a football FAN messageboard then we might as well just go & cut out our brains, tongues and be zombies to join the rest who can't take reading a few people's opinions! You blood sucking brainless numpties, I wish you'd bugger off and stop making people feel guilty for talking about Burnley & football.
Claretonthecoast, yeah because you're personal offence on the post above really offers so much insight and intellect!!

Personal offence ? :D :D

Could you expand slightly (just that part please not the stupid blood sucking numpties or cut out our brains and tongues part !!!!!!!)

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:29 am

Maybe there are many people offering insight into the game as coaches, managers, helping youth teams ut, their kids out, etc. I suspect there are many fans on here who are involved giving answers. Maybe not professionally, after all the jobs are limited, but in many other levels! Presumptuous to say the least!

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:34 am

diamondpocket wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:29 am
Maybe there are many people offering insight into the game as coaches, managers, helping youth teams ut, their kids out, etc. I suspect there are many fans on here who are involved giving answers. Maybe not professionally, after all the jobs are limited, but in many other levels! Presumptuous to say the least!
Fair do's on the explanation.

Glad you showed in your response that there was no offence. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make it offensive. Still think it is a waste to the game personally but each to their own.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by tiger76 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:47 am

We're not performing like a bottom of the league side, but the stark reality is we do need to put points on the board.

My concern apart from the obvious one of constantly throwing away leads, is we've not had a 90 minute performance all season.

Played well 1st half against Brighton, then Potter makes changes and turns the game on it's head.

Had good spells at Liverpool without ever really troubling them.

Leeds was probably our best display of the season, however even there we managed to commit hara kiri in the last few minutes.

Everton brilliant showing for an hour, take the lead, then deja vu Rafa makes subs and they score 3 in a matter of minutes.

Arsenal poor 1st half gifting a sloppy goal away, improved 2nd half, but just couldn't find the killer touch.

Leicester again strong 1st half, but whether it was the injuries, our or lack of confidence we decided to try and sit on the lead, and yet again paid the price.

And a big issue is SD is either unwilling to be proactive, or he simply doesn't see what many others see during games. Other managers such as Bielsa, Potter and Rafa can see what's not working, and change either their personnel or system to effect the game, and when they do we don't respond to counter those moves, hence why we're probably shipping so many late goals.

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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:50 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:34 am
Fair do's on the explanation.

Glad you showed in your response that there was no offence. Just because someone disagrees doesn't make it offensive. Still think it is a waste to the game personally but each to their own.
Personally, I don't see what you disagreed with; people forming opinions on what tactics should be used? You didn't response to anybody about their ideas or opinions. You just made a snide comment about being better off if all these members were in the pro game! So you are saying you disagreed with people discussing tactics? What the hell are people supposed to do on a messageboard if not discuss why we might not be winning and losing leads?
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Re: ARTICLE: We’ve got to turn these situations into winning performances

Post by diamondpocket » Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:55 am

tiger76 wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:47 am

And a big issue is SD is either unwilling to be proactive, or he simply doesn't see what many others see during games. Other managers such as Bielsa, Potter and Rafa can see what's not working, and change either their personnel or system to effect the game, and when they do we don't respond to counter those moves, hence why we're probably shipping so many late goals.
One of the things we've commented on a fair bit. We don't have a Plan B, simples. We work in training on Plan A and if that doesn't work we stick with it but change personnel with the subs but ultimately it is the same plan with an odd tweek here or there.

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