Shareholders' letter

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sportak-mustgo
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by sportak-mustgo » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:10 pm

I’m on the page of accepting the offer on the small quantity of shares that I have - however, the 50% Voucher element is of no practical use to me.
Thought: Can the club not set-up the option for this aspect to be handled as a donation to charity? Maybe BFC In the Community, even?

Alternatively, anyone up for taking my vouchers of me for a mutually agreed donation to charity?
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:10 pm

cricketfield73 wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:59 am
I'll be selling my solitary share though the credit to spend with the club isn't of any use to me, nor most non-season ticket holders I'd imagine.
Not sure on practicalities or legalities, but would it be possible to get something set up for those lumbered with an otherwise pretty useless £849.50 BFC voucher to recoup at least some of the money by purchasing a season ticket for someone else using the credit?
If I'd retained all my shares and then sold them with this offer I'd have been receiving a £84,950.00 BFC voucher.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by strayclaret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:11 pm

Just realised if I buy a shirt with my credit every year, I’ll be 127 by the time I’ve spent it :D 😁😄😀😦

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by mill hill claret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:15 pm

Could they be buying more shares maybe to sell to another outside investor thus keeping 84 % stake of the club

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Marney&Mee » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:15 pm

Does anyone think it is worth negotiating here ? Rather than accept £850 in vouchers, happy to accept 50% in cash instead

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:28 pm

Marney&Mee wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:15 pm
Does anyone think it is worth negotiating here ? Rather than accept £850 in vouchers, happy to accept 50% in cash instead
I'm sure someone who pays for 2 STs or more would buy the credit off you for cash.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dibraidio » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:50 pm

For those interested in just getting cash for their shares or selling some and not all it might be better to wait for this to happen:
Later this month, in October, BHL will be appointing Asset Match (www.assetmatch.com), an online private share trading facility, to offer shareholders going forward an ongoing means to sell or transfer their shares in BHL. Asset Match, a firm authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority, will operate an electronic off-market dealing facility for shares in BHL. This facility will allow shareholders of BHL to trade shares in BHL by matching buyers and sellers through periodic auctions.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by martin_p » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:51 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:28 pm
I'm sure someone who pays for 2 STs or more would buy the credit off you for cash.
I’d be surprised if the credit was transferable. But those who will have an excessive amount of credit need to direct the question at the club really.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by FeedTheArf » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:56 pm

Glad the minority shareholders are getting an offer for their shares, but don't agree with ALK (again!) using the clubs coffers to prop up their finances by putting 50% of the financial burden back on to the club by way of club credit.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Bacupboy » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:03 pm

Being a shareholder once gave us a voice at the AGM. This opportunity has been taken away therefore I shall sell my two shares. I have written to the club two or three times over the past two years without receiving a reply. This is the way the world is - individuals have no say and are ignored.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:23 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:50 pm
For those interested in just getting cash for their shares or selling some and not all it might be better to wait for this to happen:
You can’t sell some, it’s all or nothing.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by icu81b4 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:28 pm

Two questions please,

1. Was the communication from ALK an eMail or a letter through the post box?

2. How do I find out if ALK have my correct contact details?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:32 pm

icu81b4 wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:28 pm
Two questions please,

1. Was the communication from ALK an eMail or a letter through the post box?

2. How do I find out if ALK have my correct contact details?
Both - reported on here last night that it was an email but I’ve just spoken to a friend of mine who has received all the details by letter.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Claret Till I Die » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:37 pm

I've had both email & letter. Will probably sell but want some assurance for the timescale for spending the 'vouchers'

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by lakedistrictclaret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:46 pm

Claret Till I Die wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:37 pm
I've had both email & letter. Will probably sell but want some assurance for the timescale for spending the 'vouchers'
I've had both as well.

The correspondence doesn't use the word "vouchers", it refers to "credit", which suggests to me that there is no expiry date for using the credit.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Lowbankclaret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:46 pm

cricketfield73 wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:59 am
I'll be selling my solitary share though the credit to spend with the club isn't of any use to me, nor most non-season ticket holders I'd imagine.
Not sure on practicalities or legalities, but would it be possible to get something set up for those lumbered with an otherwise pretty useless £849.50 BFC voucher to recoup at least some of the money by purchasing a season ticket for someone else using the credit?
I would be happy to help out next season, my two season tickets cost more than. I normally in full anyway so if we could use your credit and pay the extra balance. Then bank transfer you the amount of your credit.

Would that work, I am sure the club would allow that.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by randomclaret2 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:57 pm

Radio Lancs interview with Mr Pace regarding this issue is out there now...

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Claretnick » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:59 pm

Just a snippet from the club statement on the website as I think somebody earlier didn't think you could spend the ' club credit ' on food and drink;

Burnley Chairman Alan Pace says the club ownership felt the time was right to provide fans with an offer to exit shareholding if that is their preferred option. The offer to supporters consists of a 50-50 split between cash and club credit which can be spent on ticketing, merchandise, or food & drink at Turf Moor.

https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/con ... ers-notice

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:03 pm

Someone make the Twix joke quick.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by cricketfield73 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:16 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:46 pm
I would be happy to help out next season, my two season tickets cost more than. I normally in full anyway so if we could use your credit and pay the extra balance. Then bank transfer you the amount of your credit.

Would that work, I am sure the club would allow that.
Hello Lowbank, that's a brilliant offer and thank you so much. I'm sure that we could work something out whereby I could buy your 2 season tickets - providing, as you alluded to, that the club allow it, that is. I could drop you my email and take things from there?
Once again, thanks!

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by aggi » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:18 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:50 pm
For those interested in just getting cash for their shares or selling some and not all it might be better to wait for this to happen:
Oof, that sounds like a market where some naïve people are going to lose a lot of money.

I can't imagine there will be much of a market for minority shares in BFC, particularly not above the level that has already been offered. It may also be the case that any share transfers need to be approved by the directors.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dibraidio » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:19 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:23 pm
You can’t sell some, it’s all or nothing.
I think you missed the point of the post Tony. When they are on Asset Match the suggestion is that you can trade shares.
For those with more than 7 shares it might be worth waiting and selling them in lots to reduce capital gains tax liability.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:20 pm

Good that Mr Pace has come out and fronted this, he seems impressive to me, but one thing we should all agree on is that this gesture is to benefit ALK, if it gives welcome money to some fans that is a byproduct.

I’ve tried to give my professional (financial not legal) view on this thread to try to get everyone to see all angles not just from their own perspective but this money will make a difference to a lot of people so people have to make their own minds up. I have no doubts this will go through and take ALK to a point where they can enforce a full buyout, the question then is “will they” because Mr Pace was quite forthright in his message that fans are under no obligation to sell - if that changes in the future with a compulsory buyout fans could get quite upset given today’s messaging.

There is a Rovers fan on Twitter who I saw warning us off this move, whether that is just fear based on their own experiences, who knows?

What would I do? I’d sell, because I would predict I’d end up having to sell anyway so it would at least lock in a price. Imagine a forced buyout after relegation, what share price then?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:21 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:03 pm
Someone make the Twix joke quick.
Is that the one where we say it may be possible to buy a whole Twix with the "club credit" if you have 2 shares to sell?

4XL Twix, I guess. ;)

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dibraidio » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:25 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:18 pm
Oof, that sounds like a market where some naïve people are going to lose a lot of money.

I can't imagine there will be much of a market for minority shares in BFC, particularly not above the level that has already been offered. It may also be the case that any share transfers need to be approved by the directors.
If CVHL thought the shares would have no value then why would they be making this offer? Do you think they've been naive? Surely they'd be far better off doing nothing and picking them up for less when they become tradable.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by aggi » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:28 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:20 pm
... I have no doubts this will go through and take ALK to a point where they can enforce a full buyout ...
I'm not so sure. Mike Garlick and John B still have ~ 9% of shares I think. I imagine there will be enough other shareholders who don't take up the offer to not hit the 90% threshold.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:33 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:50 pm
For those interested in just getting cash for their shares or selling some and not all it might be better to wait for this to happen:
Hi dibradio, where are you seeing this stuff about Asset Match? Is BHL the entity that (some) BFC supporters own shares in?

It appears a little odd for ALK/Velocity to make an offer to buy shares held by the 6% of small shareholders (while recognising that the small shareholders don't have to sell) and at the same time setting up a share trading facility.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by aggi » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:38 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:25 pm
If CVHL thought the shares would have no value then why would they be making this offer? Do you think they've been naive? Surely they'd be far better off doing nothing and picking them up for less when they become tradable.
The value to CVHL is different to the value to a minority shareholder.

I'm not sure who BHL is in your quote (or where the quote is from)?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:41 pm

icu81b4 wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:28 pm
Two questions please,

1. Was the communication from ALK an eMail or a letter through the post box?

2. How do I find out if ALK have my correct contact details?
Check your details on Companies House returns re BFC. The club has to list all shareholdings at regular intervals. If your details are incorrect contact the Company Secretary at the club.

I'd also check your "junk mail" folder in your email. It's not unusual for mass mailings to end up in some recipients junk folders.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:42 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:28 pm
I'm not so sure. Mike Garlick and John B still have ~ 9% of shares I think. I imagine there will be enough other shareholders who don't take up the offer to not hit the 90% threshold.
I think the initial purchase was 84% with the small shareholders holding 6% which will leave MG & JB with around 10% and I would think MG having around 6.5% of those. I was under the impression that their shareholding would actually be transferred eventually which, of course, would take them beyond 90% but I believe that could be 2023.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by claretandy » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:43 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:33 pm
Hi dibradio, where are you seeing this stuff about Asset Match? Is BHL the entity that (some) BFC supporters own shares in?

It appears a little odd for ALK/Velocity to make an offer to buy shares held by the 6% of small shareholders (while recognising that the small shareholders don't have to sell) and at the same time setting up a share trading facility.
Pace mentions setting up a share trading facility in his Radio Lancs interview.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by gawthorpe_view » Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:58 pm

Claretnick wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:59 pm
Just a snippet from the club statement on the website as I think somebody earlier didn't think you could spend the ' club credit ' on food and drink;

Burnley Chairman Alan Pace says the club ownership felt the time was right to provide fans with an offer to exit shareholding if that is their preferred option. The offer to supporters consists of a 50-50 split between cash and club credit which can be spent on ticketing, merchandise, or food & drink at Turf Moor.

https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/con ... ers-notice
That statement is more expensive than the wording in the letter I quoted earlier.
Effectively, your Team Card could become an in-house debit card. Not bad really.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dibraidio » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:22 pm

The information is in the letter to share holders in Burnley FC Holdings Limited (“BHL”). According to the letter 94% of the issued share capital of BHL was bought by Calder Vale Holdings Limited ("CVHL"). The quote is from the letter.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by gawthorpe_view » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:50 pm

gawthorpe_view wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:58 pm
That statement is more expensive* than the wording in the letter I quoted earlier.
Effectively, your Team Card could become an in-house debit card. Not bad really.
* Expansive. The curse of autocorrect.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dsr » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:02 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:25 pm
If CVHL thought the shares would have no value then why would they be making this offer? Do you think they've been naive? Surely they'd be far better off doing nothing and picking them up for less when they become tradable.
There are laws to protect minority shareholders, even in private companies. In essence the idea is that you can't favour one shareholder ahead of another if they both hold the same shares, so they have to offer the same price to minority shareholders as they did to the majority. If they didn't it would be called in law a "fraud on the minority" and minority shareholders could take them to court to get the same money.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Grumps » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:15 pm

gawthorpe_view wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:58 pm
That statement is more expensive than the wording in the letter I quoted earlier.
Effectively, your Team Card could become an in-house debit card. Not bad really.
Not bad at all, but still some complain...... The joys of being a burnley fan..... If you don't like it... Don't sell... But stop bloomin moaning, or coming up with hypothetical situations that will never happen.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by CaptJohn » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:28 pm

From my perspective it's a no no due to CGT issues. As a previous poster noted the HMRC would view the full amount as liable for CGT and in effect take a large chunk of change off me if I agreed to sell. I own 33. I can't quite figure out ALKs angle on this but they are smart financial operators and I'm sure that they are making money on this deal so the shares do have some value. I certainly don't want to pay tax on 28K of credit with BFC.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by 1968claret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:42 pm

My father in law(sadly passed away a few years back) had a share in the club. We still have this but it is in his name and I am guessing any correspondence will have gone to his old address.
Will have to get in touch with the club to see how we handle. We have certificate of probate also so am hoping we can sort. I think he would quite like the fact that this could pay for his grandsons season ticket for a year or two.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by claretandy » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:15 pm

Pace has confirmed that the credit can be used for season tickets, hospitality, food and drink or merchandise. It won't have an expiry date.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Sean Dyche's Watch » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:20 pm

I bet the major shareholders ALK bought out weren't offered 50% cash and 50% credit with the club, so why should the minor shareholders be treated differently?
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dsr » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:32 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:15 pm
Pace has confirmed that the credit can be used for season tickets, hospitality, food and drink or merchandise. It won't have an expiry date.
But the shareholders will have an expiry date, as do we all. What happens to the credit when we die? Does is die with us, or is it transferable to next of kin?
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Sean Dyche's Watch » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:33 pm

claretandy wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:15 pm
Pace has confirmed that the credit can be used for season tickets, hospitality, food and drink or merchandise. It won't have an expiry date.
..and this is the same club who wouldn't put programmes from home games aside for me to collect once a month because it would be 'too much hassle' :roll:

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by aggi » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:36 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:22 pm
The information is in the letter to share holders in Burnley FC Holdings Limited (“BHL”). According to the letter 94% of the issued share capital of BHL was bought by Calder Vale Holdings Limited ("CVHL"). The quote is from the letter.
That makes a bit more sense. I still can't imagine the shares on there would go for a huge amount (as an example there were some Spurs shares sold on there recently which would give a valuation of £350m, much lower than I think most would value Spurs).

Realistically though most aren't going to sell shares on there. ALK doing all the running is in part to get more people selling, if they'd just teamed up with Asset Match and hoped for the best there would be a minimal number of people going to the effort of registering and selling.

The 94% figure is interesting. I thought at the time it was reported that Mike Garlick and John B had maintained a smaller shareholding. I guess it could be in some entity further up the chain. I guess we'll see (or possibly not given the obfuscated ownership) in a few months.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by scouseclaret » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:53 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:20 pm
Good that Mr Pace has come out and fronted this, he seems impressive to me, but one thing we should all agree on is that this gesture is to benefit ALK, if it gives welcome money to some fans that is a byproduct.

I’ve tried to give my professional (financial not legal) view on this thread to try to get everyone to see all angles not just from their own perspective but this money will make a difference to a lot of people so people have to make their own minds up. I have no doubts this will go through and take ALK to a point where they can enforce a full buyout, the question then is “will they” because Mr Pace was quite forthright in his message that fans are under no obligation to sell - if that changes in the future with a compulsory buyout fans could get quite upset given today’s messaging.

There is a Rovers fan on Twitter who I saw warning us off this move, whether that is just fear based on their own experiences, who knows?

What would I do? I’d sell, because I would predict I’d end up having to sell anyway so it would at least lock in a price. Imagine a forced buyout after relegation, what share price then?
I really can't think of anything that ALK could do with 100% of the shares that they couldn't do with 94%, so from a "control" standpoint, I don't see what they have to gain. I seem to recall they introduced a rule in the restructuring 10 years or so ago effectively meaning that you had to hold a minimum number of shares (1,000?) to vote anyway, which disenfranchised the vast majority of smaller shareholders.

I've often wondered if the Club has been fully on the right side of the law in the way they've treated small shareholders since the restructuring. Maybe Pace has looked at it and wants to eliminate the possibility of any legal trouble in the future, or maybe he just wants to do the decent thing by small shareholders by offering them something amounting to "equitable" terms - like he would have had to do if Burnley had been a PLC.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by KRBFC » Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:56 pm

Burnley1989 wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:59 pm
:x Usual suspects out

Get them sold, they’re worthless and you can enjoy your investment
at the potential detriment to the clubs finances...

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by IanMcL » Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:04 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:10 pm
If I'd retained all my shares and then sold them with this offer I'd have been receiving a £84,950.00 BFC voucher.
And the same in cash!
You could buy a house next to the ground and decorate it with 4XL shirts!
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by IanMcL » Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:13 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:02 pm
There are laws to protect minority shareholders, even in private companies. In essence the idea is that you can't favour one shareholder ahead of another if they both hold the same shares, so they have to offer the same price to minority shareholders as they did to the majority. If they didn't it would be called in law a "fraud on the minority" and minority shareholders could take them to court to get the same money.
A good reason to retain one's share.

One day, there will be a nicely worded letter informing wee shareholders that their share is being compulsorily purchased. Then the 5 year pay the debt clause will pass the debt in house. The investor companies will disappear and outright ownership of a debt laden entity will be the outcome.

The alternative would be to do the opposite, perhaps.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Burnley1989 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:29 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:56 pm
at the potential detriment to the clubs finances...
Ah who gives a toss anymore

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dsr » Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:16 pm

scouseclaret wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:53 pm
I really can't think of anything that ALK could do with 100% of the shares that they couldn't do with 94%, so from a "control" standpoint, I don't see what they have to gain. I seem to recall they introduced a rule in the restructuring 10 years or so ago effectively meaning that you had to hold a minimum number of shares (1,000?) to vote anyway, which disenfranchised the vast majority of smaller shareholders.

I've often wondered if the Club has been fully on the right side of the law in the way they've treated small shareholders since the restructuring. Maybe Pace has looked at it and wants to eliminate the possibility of any legal trouble in the future, or maybe he just wants to do the decent thing by small shareholders by offering them something amounting to "equitable" terms - like he would have had to do if Burnley had been a PLC.
I'm sure you're wrong about the 1,000 shares needed to vote, because that would be illegal. Maybe they increased the limit to 1,000 shares to become a director. That would be possible and rings a vague bell.

I suspect you might be right about paragraph 2. It also occurs to me that a shareholder with 90% of the shares can force the minority to sell the remaining 10%, so if ALK get their shareholding above 90% it adds a degree of value to their shareholding if they want to sell. The hypothetical purchaser would know he can become 100% owner.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:27 pm

dsr wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:16 pm
I'm sure you're wrong about the 1,000 shares needed to vote, because that would be illegal. Maybe they increased the limit to 1,000 shares to become a director. That would be possible and rings a vague bell.

I suspect you might be right about paragraph 2. It also occurs to me that a shareholder with 90% of the shares can force the minority to sell the remaining 10%, so if ALK get their shareholding above 90% it adds a degree of value to their shareholding if they want to sell. The hypothetical purchaser would know he can become 100% owner.
I think the number of shares required to be able to take a place on the board was 4,000 which is why all the directors bar Garlick & John B had around that figure.
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