Shareholders' letter

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Paul Waine
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:39 pm

Culmclaret wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:22 pm
Holding a reasonable number of shares I will not be selling. I don’t need the money and frankly they can f**k off. The offer is a shabby one in that I could never redeem the ‘tokens’ in a lifetime, but more to the point I don’t trust these people with our club.
Hi Culmclaret, I'm sure you understand that if "these people" that you do not trust get things wrong, your shares will once again be worth very little. It's the equity owner who takes the first hit if an entity can't pay it's way and goes into administration.

However, great that you don't want to sell and plan to hold on to your "reasonable number of shares."

If it's the credit with the club that you don't like, I'd expect there's nothing stopping you speaking with ALK and seeing whether there's something can be done about it.

And, there's always the trading platform that will match buyers and sellers if you wish to sell later (no guarantees of the price at that time).

UTC

Paul Waine
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:46 pm

Bacupboy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:17 pm
I may have missed it, but does anyone actually understand what is going on with all these different companies being involved as per the first page of the letter? I used to work in finance, and I don't understand why there needs to be so many companies involved. I can only think that they are trying to hide something ( and succeeding!) using smoke and mirrors. The result is that I don't trust the new owners and can only see heartache ahead. 'Culmclaret '
What are the companies mentioned in the letter (I'm not a shareholder, so haven't seen the letter)?

Companies House shows a number of companies that Alan Pace (and Alan Gary Pace) is a director of. I don't think there's enough info filed with Companies House to enable a full "family tree" to be created. I'm sure there's explainable logic in all these companies - and the ones outside the UK.

UTC

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by CaptJohn » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:52 pm

Bacupboy wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:19 pm
(Continued) Culmclaret thinks the offer is shabby! I think we would be crazy to ignore it. Anyone not taking up the offer will live to regret it.
No I won't.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Culmclaret » Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:11 pm

I am lucky enough not to need the money and concerned enough about the future of the club to say that I will not be selling thank you very much. If I end up with nowt then so be it. I perfectly understand others feeling differently because even one share is a lot of money, but it feels to be making the offer in the way they have is …well a bit crappy. As I understand it, if they want to buy the shares they are required to offer an equivalent price to the offer made to the major shareholders, so they get round that by paying half of it in smarties.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:21 pm

Culmclaret wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:11 pm
I am lucky enough not to need the money and concerned enough about the future of the club to say that I will not be selling thank you very much. If I end up with nowt then so be it. I perfectly understand others feeling differently because even one share is a lot of money, but it feels to be making the offer in the way they have is …well a bit crappy. As I understand it, if they want to buy the shares they are required to offer an equivalent price to the offer made to the major shareholders, so they get round that by paying half of it in smarties.
I could be wrong but I don’t think they’re required to make you the same offer as they made Garlick et al.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Superjohnnyfrancis » Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:35 pm

How much were the original ones and who sold them (chairman at the time?)

Might be an idea to hold onto them if their is a dividend payable in future?

Also would be careful selling them as it makes it awkward for owners if fans do hold at least some of them so they can't just do whatever they want, they are new to ownership aren't they?

Personally think the enormous store credit is a bit of a cop out, good money saver for them, get the idea though.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by KRBFC » Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:40 pm

So if we're in League One in 3-4 years time, our income will be massively reduced because we're servicing god knows how much in club credit?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretEngineer » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:10 pm

I’m not a shareholder or a financial expert, but this seems a bit of poor deal.

Why on earth would anyone want thousands of pounds in club credit (unless they fancy a twix or two) when there is nothing of value worth buying, and who can’t even manage club shop stock effectively.

Seems the new owners want the full shareholding of the club with out having to pay for it. Though I actually suspect they can’t afford to pay out on the full value.

For many it’s a matter of principle than financial.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Leisure » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:22 pm

ClaretEngineer wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:10 pm
I’m not a shareholder or a financial expert, but this seems a bit of poor deal.

Why on earth would anyone want thousands of pounds in club credit (unless they fancy a twix or two) when there is nothing of value worth buying, and who can’t even manage club shop stock effectively.

Seems the new owners want the full shareholding of the club with out having to pay for it. Though I actually suspect they can’t afford to pay out on the full value.

For many it’s a matter of principle than financial.
The club credit can be used for future season ticket purchases, not just twix!

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by DCWat » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:36 pm

Leisure wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:22 pm
The club credit can be used for future season ticket purchases, not just twix!
So, should we be relegated, when season ticket money is all the more important, we’ll be worse off year on year due to people getting season tickets through their credits.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Barry_Chuckle » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:37 pm

The board are playing a blinder if you ask me.
The club credit will be used to buy goods at a price way over the value the club paid for it, example being a shirt, cost to the club say £10 But sell to the shareholder for £40.
That £40 worth of share value has been exchanged for something which cost the board £10 In real terms.
So the shareholder isn't really getting true value for their shares, merely exchanging it for goods which have had a massive mark up, and I'm being conservative with 300%, all in favour of the board who would the offset the cost of the shirt to them as a business expense.
Win win for the board and poor deal for the punter IMO.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by 1968claret » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:43 pm

All, as mentioned earlier up this thread, we hold a share but it is in the name of my father in law now deceased.
So the letter will have gone to his old address.
Would someone be able to provide the contact details for the club provided thin the letters that have been sent out please?
I will need to contact them to arrange transfer to the estate.
Thanks in advance

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by levraiclaret » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:52 pm

1968claret wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:43 pm
All, as mentioned earlier up this thread, we hold a share but it is in the name of my father in law now deceased.
So the letter will have gone to his old address.
Would someone be able to provide the contact details for the club provided thin the letters that have been sent out please?
I will need to contact them to arrange transfer to the estate.
Thanks in advance
You should contact the Company Secretary at shareholder@burnleyfc.com

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by 1968claret » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:59 pm

Thanks levraiclaret

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by aggi » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:08 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:46 pm
What are the companies mentioned in the letter (I'm not a shareholder, so haven't seen the letter)?

Companies House shows a number of companies that Alan Pace (and Alan Gary Pace) is a director of. I don't think there's enough info filed with Companies House to enable a full "family tree" to be created. I'm sure there's explainable logic in all these companies - and the ones outside the UK.

UTC
Off the top of my head there's Burnley FC Holdings which owns the ground, the men's team and the women's team (each a separate company).

They're owned by Calder Vale Holdings Limited who are owned by Kettering Capital Limited. It isn't clear who own them, either because no one has control (i.e. multiple small shareholders) or they're owned by an overseas company. However, it seems possible that they're owned by Velocity Sports Ltd who are based in Jersey.

There are also Velocity Sports Partners Ltd and ALK Capital Ltd who are owned by Velocity Sports Partners, LLC and ALK Capital, LLC respectively (both based in Delaware) and controlled by Alan Pace.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Marney&Mee » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:23 pm

If you forget all about the £850 in ‘vouchers’, being offered £850 cash for each share is tremendous value. Especially when you consider shareholders get nothing in return (dividend etc)

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Leisure » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:45 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:37 pm
The board are playing a blinder if you ask me.
The club credit will be used to buy goods at a price way over the value the club paid for it, example being a shirt, cost to the club say £10 But sell to the shareholder for £40.
That £40 worth of share value has been exchanged for something which cost the board £10 In real terms.
So the shareholder isn't really getting true value for their shares, merely exchanging it for goods which have had a massive mark up, and I'm being conservative with 300%, all in favour of the board who would the offset the cost of the shirt to them as a business expense.
Win win for the board and poor deal for the punter IMO.
So spend it on season tickets and get the full value of the credit.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by scouseclaret » Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:06 pm

For me, the interesting bits of that letter are paras 1.4 and 1.5. In isolation, 1.4 is quite worrying, because it says that the debt part of the transaction is interest only with the principle repayable after 5 years, with ALK hoping to pay it off through “additional equity equity funding, funds from additional capital sources and/or other commercial activities.” So, the business plan gives them 5 years to bring in third party investors and grow the commercial income otherwise, you might think, we’re screwed.

But the really interesting bit is 1.5, which effectively says that if it all goes t!ts-up, Garlick &Co have an option to buy the club back.

I find this quite reassuring. You would hope the previous directors wouldn’t see the club go to the wall, and they’d be buying it back for around half what they sold it for, albeit stripped of its substantial cash pile.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:50 pm

What happens if you can’t find your share certificate!!!!

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:21 pm

scouseclaret wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:06 pm
For me, the interesting bits of that letter are paras 1.4 and 1.5. In isolation, 1.4 is quite worrying, because it says that the debt part of the transaction is interest only with the principle repayable after 5 years, with ALK hoping to pay it off through “additional equity equity funding, funds from additional capital sources and/or other commercial activities.” So, the business plan gives them 5 years to bring in third party investors and grow the commercial income otherwise, you might think, we’re screwed.

But the really interesting bit is 1.5, which effectively says that if it all goes t!ts-up, Garlick &Co have an option to buy the club back.

I find this quite reassuring. You would hope the previous directors wouldn’t see the club go to the wall, and they’d be buying it back for around half what they sold it for, albeit stripped of its substantial cash pile.
Hi scouse, are you able to copy/paste the whole letter (minus your personal details, of course). I'm not a shareholder. It sounds as though there's interesting stuff to read in the letter. It may help many of us to better understand ALK's funding model, putting some more flesh on Alan Pace's "we will be impressed..." comments that he first made back in Jan.

UTC

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:00 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:50 pm
What happens if you can’t find your share certificate!!!!
I’ve already been asked that question and I’ll try to get an answer. There may be a fee for a new certificate but it will be a minimal amount.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:16 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:21 pm
Hi scouse, are you able to copy/paste the whole letter (minus your personal details, of course). I'm not a shareholder.
I could have done that for you but the letter is clearly headed Private and Confidential.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:20 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:16 pm
I could have done that for you but the letter is clearly headed Private and Confidential.
Thanks, CT. I don't want anyone to share anything that shouldn't be shared.

UTC

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Rodleydave » Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:45 pm

Scouseclaret I suspect that Garlick and John B, the last thing they want is to have the club back and have to sort out the mess left behind. Because if it does come back to them it will be because the Americans couldn't make it pay, the club is in arrears with everything, and owing creditors all over the place, with millions of debt.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by scouseclaret » Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:53 pm

Rodleydave wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:45 pm
Scouseclaret I suspect that Garlick and John B, the last thing they want is to have the club back and have to sort out the mess left behind. Because if it does come back to them it will be because the Americans couldn't make it pay, the club is in arrears with everything, and owing creditors all over the place, with millions of debt.
I'm sure they don't, and I expect its a right rather than an obligation. Nevertheless, its reassuring to see that a mechanism exists for a bailout if the worst comes to the worst - at least they've considered it!

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:24 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:00 pm
I’ve already been asked that question and I’ll try to get an answer. There may be a fee for a new certificate but it will be a minimal amount.
Can I pay it out of my “club credit”😂😂
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Bfc » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:09 pm

Has it been established yet, whether a debit can be used for paying for a season ticket, in someone else's name. With the amount of credit I have, I might not live long enough to spend my debits, on myself.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:48 pm

Bfc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:09 pm
Has it been established yet, whether a debit can be used for paying for a season ticket, in someone else's name. With the amount of credit I have, I might not live long enough to spend my debits, on myself.
You would hope so. It’s the only way people will be able to get their money out.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Claret Till I Die » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:57 pm

Bfc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:09 pm
Has it been established yet, whether a debit can be used for paying for a season ticket, in someone else's name. With the amount of credit I have, I might not live long enough to spend my debits, on myself.
Feel free to pay for mine if you like.....

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Bfc » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:18 pm

CTID, I will stick at buying you and your Dad a pint in our local Club. We had better not let everyone know how cheap our beer is on Fridays. Or it would be packed to the rafters😉
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Ric_C » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:32 pm

To me it looks like a good deal if you have a few shares and an iffy deal if you have quite a few.

Anyone know when they will pay out if you accept and send off?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by bfcjg » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:47 pm

I haven't had my letter yet , I have moved twice since I got my share and informed the club both times via profile updates and correspondence etc come to my current address anyone else not been contacted ?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by longhair » Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:38 am

I've not been contacted yet
Allways ger report and accounts
Via e mail

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by 9thMay1987 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:47 am

I got an email last night to say more information and questions asked will be released later.

I took it that they had been inundated with questions and we would get a blanket response.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:15 am

KRBFC wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:40 pm
So if we're in League One in 3-4 years time, our income will be massively reduced because we're servicing god knows how much in club credit?
If you are that concerned about the clubs finances perhaps you should be putting some money in now to help

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by strayclaret » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:48 am

Got my acknowledgment email last night. Going to be interesting to see how they handle the credit scheme, bearing in mind the fiasco over season tickets and not everyone has a team card Perhaps issue a new card with your credit on ???

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:49 am

See Pace is also mentioning bringing back the AGM

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by dibraidio » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:54 am

9thMay1987 wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:47 am
I got an email last night to say more information and questions asked will be released later.

I took it that they had been inundated with questions and we would get a blanket response.
Was it just a standard, we've received your mail and will deal with it when we can sort of reply? I was surprised it took days to get one of those, they mustn't have anticipated that people would reply so quickly.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by martin_p » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:57 am

longhair wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:38 am
I've not been contacted yet
Allways ger report and accounts
Via e mail
I’m the same. I emailed shareholder@burnleyfc.com about it on Wednesday and await a response.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by icu81b4 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:45 pm

So, I'm feeling a bit conflicted as the share has been in my family since 1937 and it was going to be handed down to my Son (who isn't a big footy fan really) . But the credit will pay towards a Season ticket (when they next become available) which I don't have at the moment.

But I also did used to enjoy going to the AGM, and claretonthecoast1882 mentions that these may be reinstated.

Hmmm .

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Bfc » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:06 pm

IF the Club were to hold an AGM, I can't imagine they will be like the ones which Harry Brooks, Sid Riley and the Gill family attended and always had questions for the board to answer. It seemed customary for Sid to be always the first to ask a question. Harry his usual articulate self liked to address the board and revel in his comments making the press. Sadly (to me) the Gills had a hatred of the board and it was lively. I liked to try and second something being passed, as my name was recorded permanently on the records of AGMs.
Previous venues of the meetings included the Centre Spot, Burnley Library and I'm not sure if the Mechanics was another I attended. One Tony may know.
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:47 pm

Bfc wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:06 pm
IF the Club were to hold an AGM, I can't imagine they will be like the ones which Harry Brooks, Sid Riley and the Gill family attended and always had questions for the board to answer. It seemed customary for Sid to be always the first to ask a question. Harry his usual articulate self liked to address the board and revel in his comments making the press. Sadly (to me) the Gills had a hatred of the board and it was lively. I liked to try and second something being passed, as my name was recorded permanently on the records of AGMs.
Previous venues of the meetings included the Centre Spot, Burnley Library and I'm not sure if the Mechanics was another I attended. One Tony may know.
Lord often held them at the Central Library but I don't know about the Mechanics. More recent years, post Lord, were always held at the Club, either Centre Spot or Longside, until they came to a stop after the one in the Centre Spot in November 2012.

Who was the bloke from Hebden Bridge who used to ramble on about things that were nothing to do with the club? I remember the one in the 1990s when we had Holt v Dearing on the shareholding and Rothwell was made to look somewhat still when he was quoting the wrong year's figures on the club shop and had the place laughing at him. At the same meeting, John Gilbraith (Glory Years) was invited to tender for the kit deal by one director while another had told him he couldn't.

Some of them were pure farce and then you would have Brooks attacking the board for one reason or another. There was the year when he was shamefully handing out leaflets to try and force Doc Iven off the board. The meeting turned on Brooks that night.

They were good entertainment at times.

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Superjohnnyfrancis » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:47 pm

Whats to stop a fan selling to another fan for the full value? Is that allowed?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:04 pm

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:47 pm
Whats to stop a fan selling to another fan for the full value? Is that allowed?
Shares can only be transferred with board permission

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Superjohnnyfrancis » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:17 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:04 pm
Shares can only be transferred with board permission
Fair enough, if you have a share from a deceased relative can you transfer that into your own name by providing a death certificate etc?

Seems a good deal for anyone that bought them in the old days, whats the cheapest you could buy one for in the past?

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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:17 pm

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:47 pm
Whats to stop a fan selling to another fan for the full value? Is that allowed?
What do you mean as "full value?" you've got to find someone who is willing to pay the price that you are willing to sell for - whether that is the price that you bought them for when you subscribed or £1,699.00 that ALK have quoted, including a "club credit." Theoretically, a fan bidding to buy as well as the fan offering to sell, both need to decide what is the cash equivalent value of the "club credit."

Of course, there's the "asset match" private company share dealing platform coming later in this month. (I assume when that is up and running the directors won't need to give permission for share transfers).

ClaretTony
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:18 pm

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:17 pm
Fair enough, if you have a share from a deceased relative can you transfer that into your own name by providing a death certificate etc?

Seems a good deal for anyone that bought them in the old days, whats the cheapest you could buy one for in the past?
Still needs board permission to transfer into a new shareholder

Cost - the bulk of mine cost £15 back in 1986 but I had some prior to that.

Paul Waine
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:20 pm

Superjohnnyfrancis wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:17 pm
Fair enough, if you have a share from a deceased relative can you transfer that into your own name by providing a death certificate etc?

Seems a good deal for anyone that bought them in the old days, whats the cheapest you could buy one for in the past?
You might need something in addition to death certificate. I'm guessing if there was a will the shares would have been dealt with as specified in the will. Otherwise may need to show that transfer is in accordance with intestacy rules.

Superjohnnyfrancis
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by Superjohnnyfrancis » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:21 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:18 pm
Still needs board permission to transfer into a new shareholder

Cost - the bulk of mine cost £15 back in 1986 but I had some prior to that.
Great I bet your absolutely buzzing at this news then , the beers are on you :D
Last edited by Superjohnnyfrancis on Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ClaretTony
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Re: Shareholders' letter

Post by ClaretTony » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:21 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:20 pm
You might need something in addition to death certificate. I'm guessing if there was a will the shares would have been dealt with as specified in the will. Otherwise may need to show that transfer is in accordance with intestacy rules.
I've previously explained, shares can only be transferred via permission from the board of directors.

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