Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

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dibraidio
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Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by dibraidio » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:46 am

At the start of the season Premier League chief executive Richard Masters said: “Generally referees are going to try and let the game flow more, having a higher tolerance for giving fouls on the pitch particularly for lower body contact and particularly in the penalty area.

Part of our "game plan" has been to disrupt the game, to win free kicks, to stop the flow of the game. Is this one of the reasons that we've struggled this season?
Ashley Barnes, once the most fouled player in the Premier league was fouled on average 2.2 times per game last season, but just 0.8 this season in fact according to whoscored fewer fouls have been given for all of our attacking players this season.

Has the increased flow of the game increased the physical demands on the players? Does this go some way to explaining our inability to hold a lead?
Of the thirteen goals we've conceded nine have come after the hour mark, just four in the first half.

Sean Dyche always talks about small margins. Is this one of those small changes that have had a big influence on the effectiveness of how we play?

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:02 am

I think a relatively weak midfield is the cause of our problems. Round about the hour mark whether we're winning, losing or drawing we come under pressure and can do nothing about it. The new lads will help alleviate this by giving us options.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by joey13 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:09 am

Lack of investment has affected Burnley
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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by evensteadiereddie » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:20 am

It has in the sense that it's kept us in the group just about avoiding relegation for a couple of years and we need to spend, as we just have done, for that to continue.
Unless we make some truly inspirational signings, we are unlikely to become a regular half-way or top-half outfit soon. To do that would cost far too much and would be too big a gamble. Let's see, for instance, how nuch it costs Newcastle to progress, assuming they will.
I prefer Dyche's stead approach, he's not let us down yet.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by houseboy » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:06 am

dibraidio wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:46 am
At the start of the season Premier League chief executive Richard Masters said: “Generally referees are going to try and let the game flow more, having a higher tolerance for giving fouls on the pitch particularly for lower body contact and particularly in the penalty area.

Part of our "game plan" has been to disrupt the game, to win free kicks, to stop the flow of the game. Is this one of the reasons that we've struggled this season?
Ashley Barnes, once the most fouled player in the Premier league was fouled on average 2.2 times per game last season, but just 0.8 this season in fact according to whoscored fewer fouls have been given for all of our attacking players this season.

Has the increased flow of the game increased the physical demands on the players? Does this go some way to explaining our inability to hold a lead?
Of the thirteen goals we've conceded nine have come after the hour mark, just four in the first half.

Sean Dyche always talks about small margins. Is this one of those small changes that have had a big influence on the effectiveness of how we play?
Ashley Barnes…the most diving player at Burnley. Get real, he sinned at least as much as he was sinned against (and probably more). One of the most baffling things about the Dyche/Barnes relationship was Dyche (quite rightly) calling out the cheats whilst having so much loyalty to the worst offender at our club. Baffling.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:46 am

To return to the op’s point. Probably, we used niggle fouls to get us up the pitch, if only to give the defence a break. It was also a key insomuch as the dead ball opportunities it offered. That we cannot effect the momentum of the game in quite the same way is, I would agree, is proving problematic.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by superdimitri » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:51 am

Definitely, but it will help us play better football. Players like Barnes will have to learn to fall over less.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:00 am

dibraidio wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:46 am
At the start of the season Premier League chief executive Richard Masters said: “Generally referees are going to try and let the game flow more, having a higher tolerance for giving fouls on the pitch particularly for lower body contact and particularly in the penalty area.

Part of our "game plan" has been to disrupt the game, to win free kicks, to stop the flow of the game. Is this one of the reasons that we've struggled this season?
Ashley Barnes, once the most fouled player in the Premier league was fouled on average 2.2 times per game last season, but just 0.8 this season in fact according to whoscored fewer fouls have been given for all of our attacking players this season.

Has the increased flow of the game increased the physical demands on the players? Does this go some way to explaining our inability to hold a lead?
Of the thirteen goals we've conceded nine have come after the hour mark, just four in the first half.

Sean Dyche always talks about small margins. Is this one of those small changes that have had a big influence on the effectiveness of how we play?
More down to SDs substitutions, or rather lack of.
Holding onto those leads would have changed our season, yet for whatever reason Sean thought swapping Barnes for Jay Rod would do the trick.
As well as we've played this season we still haven't put in a complete performance, or seen our best starting XI, play a full game. The more game time they get, the more they will gel and the better the performances and results.
Holding onto a lead will still be our biggest challenge.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:02 am

Players being out of form has affected Burnley, primarily Wood and Pope. Wood has missed chances he would normally score (lets say 3-4 goals by now) and Pope has let goals in he would normally stop (the Vardy rash dash, the Foden push out etc).

Other players culpable too. The Dwight miss against Norwich was almost unbelievable.

All very frustrating but easy to see us being on 10 points now. So no, I don’t see the flow as being a factor.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by KRBFC » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:18 am

houseboy wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:06 am
Ashley Barnes…the most diving player at Burnley. Get real, he sinned at least as much as he was sinned against (and probably more). One of the most baffling things about the Dyche/Barnes relationship was Dyche (quite rightly) calling out the cheats whilst having so much loyalty to the worst offender at our club. Baffling.
Dyche didn't mention the blatant dive by Taylor against Arsenal either.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:29 am

houseboy wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:06 am
Ashley Barnes…the most diving player at Burnley. Get real, he sinned at least as much as he was sinned against (and probably more). One of the most baffling things about the Dyche/Barnes relationship was Dyche (quite rightly) calling out the cheats whilst having so much loyalty to the worst offender at our club. Baffling.
Nonsense

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by houseboy » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:50 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:29 am
Nonsense
Come on Tony. He’s done his fair share of diving.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by BenWickes » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:46 pm

houseboy wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:50 pm
Come on Tony. He’s done his fair share of diving.
Wanted to reply earlier but since my change of jobs, this is my first opportunity.

I don't think any of our players are divers. What we have, I'd say three players in particular who know how to stay just on the right side of what is deemed a fine line between cheating and taking advantage of a situation.
Those being Barnes, Tarkowski and now Cornet, who will undoubtedly show that side of his game from his experiences in the Champions League.
We were far too naive in our first season under Dyche and many pundits frequently said 'Why didn't so and so go down? There was contact'
Let's face it. There are clubs who have the subs bench at the dark arts, never mind the eleven on the pitch.
It's not a side to the game I enjoy but to say Barnes, or any other of our players cheat is inaccurate. We've just started playing at their game and they don't like it. For me what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if the other 19 clubs will try anything to get that advantage, then so should we.
FWIW. I see far worse on a weekly basis from every one of the other 19 clubs than I see from ours.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by ClaretTony » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:51 pm

BenWickes wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:46 pm
Wanted to reply earlier but since my change of jobs, this is my first opportunity.

I don't think any of our players are divers. What we have, I'd say three players in particular who know how to stay just on the right side of what is deemed a fine line between cheating and taking advantage of a situation.
Those being Barnes, Tarkowski and now Cornet, who will undoubtedly show that side of his game from his experiences in the Champions League.
We were far too naive in our first season under Dyche and many pundits frequently said 'Why didn't so and so go down? There was contact'
Let's face it. There are clubs who have the subs bench at the dark arts, never mind the eleven on the pitch.
It's not a side to the game I enjoy but to say Barnes, or any other of our players cheat is inaccurate. We've just started playing at their game and they don't like it. For me what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if the other 19 clubs will try anything to get that advantage, then so should we.
FWIW. I see far worse on a weekly basis from every one of the other 19 clubs than I see from ours.
I've never seen Barnes take a dive because he doesn't.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by BenWickes » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:56 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:51 pm
I've never seen Barnes take a dive because he doesn't.
I know. I just said that but he is a one of a handful who are wise to the league and the parameters to work within to try to gain an advantage. Does he cheat? No. Does he dive? No. He is technically better than what he is given credit for but he knows what buttons to press and I'm all for it.
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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by superdimitri » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:00 pm

Barnes plays the ref and the defenders. One moment he's strong, the next he falls over like a sack of potatoes. Some call it clever play. It's still cheating though and it's still falling over which in effect is diving. Sometimes he gets it very wrong and falls over when no one's even near him which is really embarrassing.

After Dyche gave up moaning about cheating and nothing was done about it we've certainly done more of it ourselves, it's a good thing though because it's an unfair advantage against us.

If you can't beat them, join them.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Iloveyoubrady » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:01 pm

Barnes doesn’t dive as such but he is clever with his falling over under minimal contact. Same goes for tarks and cornet as said. Seems we have got better at it since our first season with Dwight, Taylor and even wood getting in on the act now.

I do prefer the style of play this year, where refs won’t always give it, so you have to keep playing.
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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by BenWickes » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:04 pm

Iloveyoubrady wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:01 pm
Barnes doesn’t dive as such but he is clever with his falling over under minimal contact. Same goes for tarks and cornet as said. Seems we have got better at it since our first season with Dwight, Taylor and even wood getting in on the act now.

I do prefer the style of play this year, where refs won’t always give it, so you have to keep playing.
I have to say I do like Tarks antics at times. He can be a little tinker :lol:

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by houseboy » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:30 pm

BenWickes wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:46 pm
Wanted to reply earlier but since my change of jobs, this is my first opportunity.

I don't think any of our players are divers. What we have, I'd say three players in particular who know how to stay just on the right side of what is deemed a fine line between cheating and taking advantage of a situation.
Those being Barnes, Tarkowski and now Cornet, who will undoubtedly show that side of his game from his experiences in the Champions League.
We were far too naive in our first season under Dyche and many pundits frequently said 'Why didn't so and so go down? There was contact'
Let's face it. There are clubs who have the subs bench at the dark arts, never mind the eleven on the pitch.
It's not a side to the game I enjoy but to say Barnes, or any other of our players cheat is inaccurate. We've just started playing at their game and they don't like it. For me what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if the other 19 clubs will try anything to get that advantage, then so should we.
FWIW. I see far worse on a weekly basis from every one of the other 19 clubs than I see from ours.
So what you are saying is if all the world is cheating become a cheat? So if all the world is murdering do you become a murderer? Is it not up to someone to stand up and say ‘this is wrong’? I’m being a bit extreme I know but watching the antics of many players now has become like going to the theatre to watch amateur dramatics. It’s not football it’s a show.
The pundits on TV now support it by saying things like ‘there was contact, he had a right to go down’. No he bloody didn’t. He had an obligation to stay on his feet unless he was actually fouled and couldn’t stay on his feet, not go down like a felled oak because someone gently grazed his shoulder.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Iloveyoubrady » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:50 pm

BenWickes wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:04 pm
I have to say I do like Tarks antics at times. He can be a little tinker :lol:
Haha I agree. His winding up of opposition is great. Then a mischievous smile. Lowts gets in on it too to be fair.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by HunterST_BFC » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:53 am

imho

More Reds not Yellows for cynically stopping play in midfield would be a good move.

All teams do it but it is a tactic the "better" teams use as a line of defence eg City, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc etc
They simply stop play if there is a risk because they are pressing high with most players, it's a tactic.

Now - so if cynically pulling down a player breaking on the counter was not a Yellow but Red - Teams would have to actually cover their back - unlike those mentioned (and others) that use this tactic. The 3 teams mentioned are the worst and yes we do a bit of it when are pushing high up.

Deliberate Foul = Red

I honestly think the game would become better. More open play, more equal.
Losing a player for preventing the game moving would cause a change of thinking. No longer a tactic.

....An aside VAR would be busy initially until teams stopped doing it.

Red for Deliberate / Cynically

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by BenWickes » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:45 am

houseboy wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:30 pm
So what you are saying is if all the world is cheating become a cheat? So if all the world is murdering do you become a murderer? Is it not up to someone to stand up and say ‘this is wrong’? I’m being a bit extreme I know but watching the antics of many players now has become like going to the theatre to watch amateur dramatics. It’s not football it’s a show.
The pundits on TV now support it by saying things like ‘there was contact, he had a right to go down’. No he bloody didn’t. He had an obligation to stay on his feet unless he was actually fouled and couldn’t stay on his feet, not go down like a felled oak because someone gently grazed his shoulder.
I don't like theatrics at all. However until that changes we need to take advantage legally as often as we can. It'll be a cold day in hell when teams stop is all I can say. Managers and coaching staff of other teams actively encourage it and if we want to compete, we need to play them at their own game.
In an ideal world it wouldn't happen but we need to be savvy enough as individuals and as a team to compete.
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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by superdimitri » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:18 am

Cheating is cheating. Our players, crowd + bench add to it. Barnes may get fouled legitimately, get nothing and later not be fouled at all and get something for nothing.

He's clever and does it at the right time, usually to help us relieve pressure.

No need to hide the obvious.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Guppyspotter » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:58 am

Ashley Barnes isn't a diver, he's just very unsteady on his feet sometimes and the merest touch from the opposition can cause him to tumble.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by dibraidio » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:16 am

According to the stats on the Premier League website the average number of fouls against us has dropped from 10 last season to just 7 this season. Ashley Barnes and Vydra are both winning half as many fouls as they did.

If refs stop giving fouls for minor infringements against Barnes that's fewer set pieces, pressure taken off the defense less frequently and possibly goodbye to "taking one for the team" which our full backs and midfielders do quite often to prevent us getting hit on the break.

Minor fouls have been part of SDs plan to break up play but avoid bookings and sendings off. It's served us well and ensured our scappy stop start games are always at the end of the the MOTD line up but with more tolerance for minor fouls it looks like that side of our game won't be effective anymore and needs to change.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:58 am

We’re certainly cheating more and as we’re not very good at diving , (see Cornet or Westwood’s often preposterous dives) it’s not really helped us at all . While I appreciate Barnes is a washed up bum , his usefulness was fooling refs rather than actually being really fouled much

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:17 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:58 am
We’re certainly cheating more and as we’re not very good at diving , (see Cornet or Westwood’s often preposterous dives) it’s not really helped us at all . While I appreciate Barnes is a washed up bum , his usefulness was fooling refs rather than actually being really fouled much
Or maybe Barnes has been used so long as an outlet that he is struggling to revert back to the player that he was three years ago. I have no problem people feeling Barnes time is up. But for me calling him a ‘bum’ says more about the poster than Barnes.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Ric_C » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:56 pm

I think Klopp's outburst and the subsequent media attention it got has affected the referees perception of how we play.

We have been given next to nothing by the refs since his rant

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:16 pm

Ric_C wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:56 pm
I think Klopp's outburst and the subsequent media attention it got has affected the referees perception of how we play.

We have been given next to nothing by the refs since his rant
I understand why you would reach this conclusion, however I feel it is more that we’ve fallen fowl of complaining about players going down too easily while not practicing what we preached, while also being the victims of some woeful refereeing decisions. Whether that is due to the incompetence of officials or a wider agenda is a matter of interpretation.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:29 pm

Sticking your arse backwards so it touches the defender whilst jumping forwards and up, throwing your hands in the air and then falling to the ground like the defender has clattered you is diving and this is what Barnes does and can be quite good at.

Anyone who thinks Barnes doesn't dive is either biased, blind or a bit wet between the ears
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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Swizzlestick » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:25 pm

Of course he dives! He might be a bit more clever at doing it, but he dives and, frankly it's hard work.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:35 pm

We can look for excuses or accept plain honesty, usually valid reasons exist why things are the way we don't like them & it's usually a combination of different little things.

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Re: Has letting the game flow affected Burnley?

Post by Elizabeth » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:26 pm

Referees letting the game flow has been such a big positive this season and the reality is that it is not one of the reasons we are top of the table for losing points from winning positions.
If we are good enough to be in the lead so often going into the second half then we need to find ways to be good enough to hold on to those points.

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