Must win again Brentford?

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GodIsADeeJay81
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:58 pm

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I remember when we first tried to buy Jay from wba and we didn't cough up the original asking price which was approaching £20 million I think, many demanded we just pay it instead of haggling.

We got him for half that a year later, good business at the time, a proven PL striker at a good price.

We can all lament how the money is, or isn't, spent after a period of time, but it's done now and we are still in the PL.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:03 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:56 pm
We can fall back to 3 CBs when defending, and Collins can play in front of them when we push out. He's clearly faster, and a better passer of the ball, than Tarks or Mee. They have the better experience in defence. We have to have someone in the hole in front of the backline to break up counter attacks, and I'm confident he could do a better job than the present incumbents.
I don't believe we are good enough footballers to play a conventional 3 at the back, but Collins presence would allow Pieters and Roberts to join the attacks more.
Is Collins faster and a better passer of the ball than Tarks and Mee? Certainly didn't seem to be the case today. I've only seen him play a few times, but from what I have seen I would say that the suggestion to play him as a holding midfielder is probably the most wacky square peg in round hole suggestion I've seen on here.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by BurnleyFC » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:13 pm

It’s a must win for me. I also thought Jay ended up costing closer to £5m.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:18 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:13 pm
It’s a must win for me. I also thought Jay ended up costing closer to £5m.
2 payments of £5 million, a year apart.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:20 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:03 pm
Is Collins faster and a better passer of the ball than Tarks and Mee? Certainly didn't seem to be the case today. I've only seen him play a few times, but from what I have seen I would say that the suggestion to play him as a holding midfielder is probably the most wacky square peg in round hole suggestion I've seen on here.
I do understand the reservation but it's only wacky if you think Jack Cork can do a better job. We clearly need a better alternative in the middle of the park, and to do nothing would be suicidal.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:22 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:20 am
I do understand the reservation but it's only wacky if you think Jack Cork can do a better job. We clearly need a better alternative in the middle of the park, and to do nothing would be suicidal.
Never understood the need that some have on here to move our CB's up to CDM.

Edgar, Tarks and now Collins.

Just because Grezza managed it after being a RB, doesn't mean they all will.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:33 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:22 am
Never understood the need that some have on here to move our CB's up to CDM.

Edgar, Tarks and now Collins.

Just because Grezza managed it after being a RB, doesn't mean they all will.
It's a question of needs must. I've argued against the same thing myself, but atm our midfield is non existent as a defensive force. If we don't have a midfielder that can defend, then why not a defender who can play in midfield. I don't know what sort of job Collins could do, but I know what Cork does. We HAVE to do better, and with the lack of a natural midfielder, thinking outside the box is our only alternative. To leave things as they are would be madness, trying Collins may work, it may not, but at least we wouldn't be sat on our hands accepting the inevitable.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:38 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:33 am
It's a question of needs must. I've argued against the same thing myself, but atm our midfield is non existent as a defensive force. If we don't have a midfielder that can defend, then why not a defender who can play in midfield. I don't know what sort of job Collins could do, but I know what Cork does. We HAVE to do better, and with the lack of a natural midfielder, thinking outside the box is our only alternative. To leave things as they are would be madness, trying Collins may work, it may not, but at least we wouldn't be sat on our hands accepting the inevitable.
We have Brownhill who can put a shift in whilst playing CM, yesterday he'd been pushed out to the flank and we all know he shouldn't be out there.
That was a mistake because it left an out of form Cork in the middle.

If we are going to keep playing Cornet up front, then we need another Winger on the flank so Brownhill can stay in CM with his engine/workrate.
Yes I know that will be unpopular with some on here who've declared Brownhill as complete garbage but it's his natural role.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Bosscat » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:01 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:38 am
We have Brownhill who can put a shift in whilst playing CM, yesterday he'd been pushed out to the flank and we all know he shouldn't be out there.
That was a mistake because it left an out of form Cork in the middle.

If we are going to keep playing Cornet up front, then we need another Winger on the flank so Brownhill can stay in CM with his engine/workrate.*
Yes I know that will be unpopular with some on here who've declared Brownhill as complete garbage but it's his natural role.
*👍

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by BurnleyFC » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:43 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:38 am
We have Brownhill who can put a shift in whilst playing CM, yesterday he'd been pushed out to the flank and we all know he shouldn't be out there.
That was a mistake because it left an out of form Cork in the middle.

If we are going to keep playing Cornet up front, then we need another Winger on the flank so Brownhill can stay in CM with his engine/workrate.
Yes I know that will be unpopular with some on here who've declared Brownhill as complete garbage but it's his natural role.
For me, Brownhill has quite comfortably been our best central midfielder this season.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:46 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:38 am
We have Brownhill who can put a shift in whilst playing CM, yesterday he'd been pushed out to the flank and we all know he shouldn't be out there.
That was a mistake because it left an out of form Cork in the middle.

If we are going to keep playing Cornet up front, then we need another Winger on the flank so Brownhill can stay in CM with his engine/workrate.
Yes I know that will be unpopular with some on here who've declared Brownhill as complete garbage but it's his natural role.
Putting a shift in makes Brownhill no more a defensive midfielder than Collins.
I like Brownhill as well, but he is an attacking midfielder, and I too would prefer to see him in the middle. Swap him and Dwight from my original team and you have it. We need younger fresher legs, and as much as I appreciate what Cork and Westy and Lowts have given us over the years, they should be squad players now.
Cornet has been a breath of fresh air, because of his pace, eye for goal, his link up play, his directness. Collins has shown with his performance against City that he too has pace, an eye for a pass, and the speed needed. Roberts has shown for Wales that he can operate right back, and has the skill set to play the right wing as well, an ideal replacement for Lowts. The lack of pace from our old guard means not only are they weak defensively, but they are negative going forward. One good pass every other game can't disguise it. We need some young, quick, positive players to break this run. I should imagine they are all chomping at the bit.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:07 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:46 am
Putting a shift in makes Brownhill no more a defensive midfielder than Collins.
I like Brownhill as well, but he is an attacking midfielder, and I too would prefer to see him in the middle. Swap him and Dwight from my original team and you have it. We need younger fresher legs, and as much as I appreciate what Cork and Westy and Lowts have given us over the years, they should be squad players now.
Cornet has been a breath of fresh air, because of his pace, eye for goal, his link up play, his directness. Collins has shown with his performance against City that he too has pace, an eye for a pass, and the speed needed. Roberts has shown for Wales that he can operate right back, and has the skill set to play the right wing as well, an ideal replacement for Lowts. The lack of pace from our old guard means not only are they weak defensively, but they are negative going forward. One good pass every other game can't disguise it. We need some young, quick, positive players to break this run. I should imagine they are all chomping at the bit.
Brownhill has our highest interceptions and tackle stats in CM midfield though, that's partly because he's got a good engine.

Westwood is the better attacking CM

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by jojomk1 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:27 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:33 am
It's a question of needs must. I've argued against the same thing myself, but atm our midfield is non existent as a defensive force. If we don't have a midfielder that can defend, then why not a defender who can play in midfield. I don't know what sort of job Collins could do, but I know what Cork does. We HAVE to do better, and with the lack of a natural midfielder, thinking outside the box is our only alternative. To leave things as they are would be madness, trying Collins may work, it may not, but at least we wouldn't be sat on our hands accepting the inevitable.
Has anyone actually seen Collins play in midfield ?
Suggest if not, there may be a reason why !
Suspect we will simply revert to the usual 4-4-2 against Brentford
Brownhill and Westwood central with Cornet and McNeil wide
Pick any one from three up front with Wood - haven't a clue who Dyche prefers
Will be interesting to see who plays at the back if Mee is available

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Safron » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:18 pm

Just watching Brentford v leicester and they are very impressive, will not be an easy game on Saturday, never stop chasing the ball, will have to be a our best against them if we are to get anything.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jamesy » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:38 pm

I would echo that Safron. They are a handful. Leicester have hardly been in this game apart from the wonder strike.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by KRBFC » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:01 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:22 am
Never understood the need that some have on here to move our CB's up to CDM.

Edgar, Tarks and now Collins.

Just because Grezza managed it after being a RB, doesn't mean they all will.
Bikey did too for a short spell :lol:

Dyche did play Tarks in midfield

It's a weird fascination though and never really works.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by boatshed bill » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:17 pm

How do our distances run stats look this season?

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:07 pm
Brownhill has our highest interceptions and tackle stats in CM midfield though, that's partly because he's got a good engine.

Westwood is the better attacking CM
Westwood was our best attacking midfielder, apart from his lack of goals which is shared by most of the squad, how many clear cut chances does he create. He's been one of my favourite players, but it's been a long time since he looked a match winner.
As for Josh and his interception rate, there is a big difference between pressing and winning the ball outside the opposition box, and putting in a ball winning tackle outside our own box.
9 of the top 10 players with the most passes this season are CBs, nor because they are great passers of the ball, but because they pass it sideways, get it back, then pass it to the other side, repeat. Stats can be very misleading, and to play Brownhill in front of the back 4 would be a waste of his talents. Collins on the other hand, has talent we could use, but will be consigned to the bench when Mee is fit again. Collins is capable of putting in a tackle outside our box, wether he has the ability to link the play is an unknown, but he looks a good passer of the ball. It wouldn't be my preferred option, but looking at our squad we don't have many.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Spijed » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:37 pm

Today's result adds an extra significance to next weeks game.

If, and it's a big if, but if we can beat Brentford then it may signal a tricky patch for them as they'll have lost three in a row.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:45 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:23 pm
Westwood was our best attacking midfielder, apart from his lack of goals which is shared by most of the squad, how many clear cut chances does he create. He's been one of my favourite players, but it's been a long time since he looked a match winner.
As for Josh and his interception rate, there is a big difference between pressing and winning the ball outside the opposition box, and putting in a ball winning tackle outside our own box.
9 of the top 10 players with the most passes this season are CBs, nor because they are great passers of the ball, but because they pass it sideways, get it back, then pass it to the other side, repeat. Stats can be very misleading, and to play Brownhill in front of the back 4 would be a waste of his talents. Collins on the other hand, has talent we could use, but will be consigned to the bench when Mee is fit again. Collins is capable of putting in a tackle outside our box, wether he has the ability to link the play is an unknown, but he looks a good passer of the ball. It wouldn't be my preferred option, but looking at our squad we don't have many.
Hello ablue :D

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Stayingup » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:58 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:23 pm
Westwood was our best attacking midfielder, apart from his lack of goals which is shared by most of the squad, how many clear cut chances does he create. He's been one of my favourite players, but it's been a long time since he looked a match winner.
As for Josh and his interception rate, there is a big difference between pressing and winning the ball outside the opposition box, and putting in a ball winning tackle outside our own box.
9 of the top 10 players with the most passes this season are CBs, nor because they are great passers of the ball, but because they pass it sideways, get it back, then pass it to the other side, repeat. Stats can be very misleading, and to play Brownhill in front of the back 4 would be a waste of his talents. Collins on the other hand, has talent we could use, but will be consigned to the bench when Mee is fit again. Collins is capable of putting in a tackle outside our box, wether he has the ability to link the play is an unknown, but he looks a good passer of the ball. It wouldn't be my preferred option, but looking at our squad we don't have many.
Being a good passer of the ball is good but not always the same as being creative with the ball.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by houseboy » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:19 am

We have had some bad luck with injuries for one thing, and generally performances haven’t been that bad. Cornet is a class act and will be an inspiration if he remains injury free. The main problem is the defence. We have never scored many goals but have never needed to but at the moment we can’t defend for jack sh!t. Pope looks off the pace, Tarks is making errors (is he p!ssed off at not getting his move?) and Mee is injured. That central defensive pyramid has been the backbone of our team and just now isn’t working that well.
Having said all that a couple of wins would move us up well. In fact looking at the table if we had held on to that 1-0 v Leeds we wouldn’t be in the bottom three at all. We’d be above Leeds on goal difference. Don’t despair guys. Normal service will be resumed as they say. And if we start clicking and Cornet continues as he has started with hopefully Vyds fit again and playing we should be just fine.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by JohnMcGreal » Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:36 am

Norwich at home was a must win game.

I think we have to be looking at a minimum of 4 points from the next two home games (Brentford and Palace).

If we fail to win either of those it's most likely going to be curtains for us at this level, bar a miraculous turnaround.

If we win them both the league table suddenly looks very different and we're in a good position to start pulling away from the bottom.

Fingers crossed we pull some big results out, because we bloody need them.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by jojomk1 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:07 am

If Mee is back we can play 3-5-2
McNeil can play on lhs of the middle three so no need for Cork
Cornet up front with Wood
Will have to wait and see if Roberts is given a start against Spurs, otherwise Lowton and Taylor should be good enough to play the wing back roles
It's the formation Brentford play but whether Dyche reverts to norm we will have to wait and see

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:15 am

Let’s be honest it doesn’t really matter which of the three CMs start, none of them are good enough.

Brentford is a must win. Lose that and we will be on 4 points after 11 games. Arguably one of the biggest games of Dyches career on Saturday.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:25 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:15 am
Let’s be honest it doesn’t really matter which of the three CMs start, none of them are good enough.

Brentford is a must win. Lose that and we will be on 4 points after 11 games. Arguably one of the biggest games of Dyches career on Saturday.

Surely though so long as there are loads of goals and attacking football it doesn't matter who plays, who scores or who wins football for you is just entertainment, why would be bothered about just us winning, or the stupid notion that it is on of Dyche's biggest games of his career ?

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:31 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:25 am
Surely though so long as there are loads of goals and attacking football it doesn't matter who plays, who scores or who wins football for you is just entertainment, why would be bothered about just us winning, or the stupid notion that it is on of Dyche's biggest games of his career ?
Do you ever actually contribute anything to any thread?

I think it is one of the biggest games of Dyches career. He has been incredibly successful but the reality is if he is relegated again, he falls down the pecking order of potential suitors.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Local cricketer » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:32 am

So let me get this right we have signed one of the best young centre half’s possibly in Europe and the geniuses on here are saying we need to play him in midfield?

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:32 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:31 am
Do you ever actually contribute anything to any thread?

I think it is one of the biggest games of Dyches career. He has been incredibly successful but the reality is if he is relegated again, he falls down the pecking order of potential suitors.

Which suitors ? You have repeatedly told us that nobody else would want him, now you are claiming he might fall down the pecking order of the same people who already don't want him.

As for contributing yes, but I have little time for liars or hypocrites so struggle tolerating them.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by warksclaret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:56 am

Just like Southampton, vital we don't lose.Rome not built in a day

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:43 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:32 am
Which suitors ? You have repeatedly told us that nobody else would want him, now you are claiming he might fall down the pecking order of the same people who already don't want him.

As for contributing yes, but I have little time for liars or hypocrites so struggle tolerating them.
To be fair I can’t tolerate bigots, unfortunately it seems the mods won’t do anything about posters like you.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:07 am

Local cricketer wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:32 am
So let me get this right we have signed one of the best young centre half’s possibly in Europe and the geniuses on here are saying we need to play him in midfield?
You're looking at it the wrong way. What is being said is we need someone in midfield who can tackle, especially just in front of the back 4. In the absence of that midfielder, why not try Collins. We know Westwood and Cork aren't the answer, we've watched them for many seasons now.
I can understand the doubts about playing Collins there, but if you don't want that what is your solution? Because we are desperate for someone to stop teams breaking on us constantly.
The way Brentford play, press, speed, enthusiasm. We are their ideal opponents. Slow ineffective midfield (defensively), susceptible to balls played in behind. Saturday could be a car crash unless we find an answer.

They'll commit people forward and we need to hit them fast inorder to exploit it. Which requires Vydra up front, but also players who can play quick balls through the channels or down the line. Westwood and Cork move the ball too slowly, play the easy safe pass and allow the opposition time to get back. A midfield with Cornet, McNeil and Brownhill, with Collins behind them, is more capable of moving the ball quickly.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by DanH90 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:17 am

beddie wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm
We’re short of two players, a mobile centre forward and a ball winning quality midfielder. Costly and hard to find but if we are serious about staying up then both are a must.
I can never understand the obsession with a ‘ball winning’ central midfielder. How many PL midfielders do you see today who are tough tacking and win the ball back. We desperately need a central midfielder, one who can dictate the tempo of the play, speed the game up and, more importantly, slow the game down.

To add my two Penneth to the initial question, Saturday is a must win game, no doubt. If we can’t beat Brentford at home, despite how well they’ve done so far, we will struggle hugely to stay up. I admit I can’t see 3 poorer teams than us currently, hopefully I’m just being my usual cynical self.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:19 am

If all you wanted Cork to do was just sit in front of the back 4 and protect them then he could do that easily but A midfield player (even a holding one) has to do a lot more than that.

They need to be mobile, play with the ball in front, behind and to the side of them, they need to be able to take the ball under pressure and be able to keep possession and recycle the ball, they need to read the game and have awareness of whats going on all around them and need to have great positional sense.

For a centre half to be able to step up and play midfield they have to have a lot of skills and attributes most defenders (even the best) just dont have to compete in that position at the top level

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:34 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:43 am
To be fair I can’t tolerate bigots, unfortunately it seems the mods won’t do anything about posters like you.
He just thinks you are a tool and a fantasist

He's not alone in that

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:40 am

Back to the topic, be interesting to see how SD lines up on Saturday (or even Wednesday)

Two goodish performances but only one point

Finding a way to make us more solid while not constraining Cornets attacking instincts is going to be a challenge, and its up to SD to find it

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:05 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:40 am
Back to the topic, be interesting to see how SD lines up on Saturday (or even Wednesday)

Two goodish performances but only one point

Finding a way to make us more solid while not constraining Cornets attacking instincts is going to be a challenge, and its up to SD to find it
Wednesday is an ideal opportunity to try and find a team for Saturday. The result against Spurs matters, but not as much as the 3pts.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:18 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:43 am
To be fair I can’t tolerate bigots, unfortunately it seems the mods won’t do anything about posters like you.

Feel free to explain your bigot comment, would hate for you to be lying again

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by dandeclaret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:28 pm

Actual "Must Win" games in t last 35 years

1) Orient
2) Torquay (H) 4th Division Playoffs
3) Plymouth (A)
4) Stockport (N) Play Off Finals
5) Sheff Utd (N) Play Off Finals
6) Plymouth (H) - Waddle season

plus some we've lost on the day that mathematical safety was ended

There have been plenty more that would be very beneficial to win, but no game at this stage of the season is "Must Win"

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:29 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:36 am
Norwich at home was a must win game.

I think we have to be looking at a minimum of 4 points from the next two home games (Brentford and Palace).

If we fail to win either of those it's most likely going to be curtains for us at this level, bar a miraculous turnaround.

If we win them both the league table suddenly looks very different and we're in a good position to start pulling away from the bottom.

Fingers crossed we pull some big results out, because we bloody need them.
That's a very bleak outlook because even if we draw against them we are still taking 2 points off them & the likes of Leeds & Southampton ect aren't guaranteed to win so we could close the gap even by drawing but you are saying curtains seriously? The sooner we pick up a win sooner the better but plodding along with draws providing teams in & around us lose is a good thing & a point for us is better than nothing. You are predicting gloom way too early the maths suggest the same.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Spijed » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:30 pm

warksclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:56 am
Just like Southampton, vital we don't lose.Rome not built in a day
As long as we can stay in a holding pattern at the very least and keep well in touch then wins, whilst very important, are not do or die moments in our season at this stage.

One win can change everything, just in one game. Having just checked, only one club in the bottom half won this weekend, that being Watford.

But we certainly can't afford to lose games like these. A point is a must just to keep some momentum going.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:56 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:07 am
You're looking at it the wrong way. What is being said is we need someone in midfield who can tackle, especially just in front of the back 4. In the absence of that midfielder, why not try Collins. We know Westwood and Cork aren't the answer, we've watched them for many seasons now.
I can understand the doubts about playing Collins there, but if you don't want that what is your solution? Because we are desperate for someone to stop teams breaking on us constantly.
The way Brentford play, press, speed, enthusiasm. We are their ideal opponents. Slow ineffective midfield (defensively), susceptible to balls played in behind. Saturday could be a car crash unless we find an answer.

They'll commit people forward and we need to hit them fast inorder to exploit it. Which requires Vydra up front, but also players who can play quick balls through the channels or down the line. Westwood and Cork move the ball too slowly, play the easy safe pass and allow the opposition time to get back. A midfield with Cornet, McNeil and Brownhill, with Collins behind them, is more capable of moving the ball quickly.
Westwood moves the ball too slowly and plays the easy safe pass? I’d say the exact opposite is true.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:15 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:58 pm
Being a good passer of the ball is good but not always the same as being creative with the ball.
I don't disagree, and I don't know whether Collins can be creative with the ball, but Jack and Westy aren't being creative enough with the ball either, and neither is very good at breaking up attacks in the middle of the Park. We don't have the complete midfielder we need. In that case isn't it worth at least seeing if Collins can break up those attacks in the middle of the park, anything else would be a bonus.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by ecc » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:16 pm

It's not a must-win. How can it be when there will be 28 games left after this one? And if we're that crap even a win against Brentford won't save us.

However, it is clearly a "will feel much better if win match".

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:27 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:56 pm
Westwood moves the ball too slowly and plays the easy safe pass? I’d say the exact opposite is true.
If it was still true we wouldn't have to resort to hoofing the ball down the pitch, just to have it back on the edge of the box 30 secs later. There's a reason we don't PLAY the ball out of defence, and it's because we have been too slow compared to the opposition, and we move the ball too slowly.

We've played so well at times this season, for little reward, but if you look back and see where the weaknesses are that caused that, then apart from not taking opportunities, it's the midfield. A, in not creating, and B, in not being strong enough in defence. I don't think there's anyone on this board who doesn't agree we need to improve this area, but we can't improve it if we just keep playing the same personnel in the same formation. I've said I can understand the reservations of playing Collins in front of the back 4, but we have to try something different, we can't carry on saying we played well, but......

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by JohnMcGreal » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:37 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:29 pm
That's a very bleak outlook because even if we draw against them we are still taking 2 points off them & the likes of Leeds & Southampton ect aren't guaranteed to win so we could close the gap even by drawing but you are saying curtains seriously? The sooner we pick up a win sooner the better but plodding along with draws providing teams in & around us lose is a good thing & a point for us is better than nothing. You are predicting gloom way too early the maths suggest the same.
Taking these odd points here and there is all well and good. The draw at Leicester was a decent result. A draw away to Southampton isn't a terrible result, either. But draws like that without wins will see us relegated. We have to start winning games. It's as simple as that.

Under your scenario where we draw against Brentford and Palace, that means we'll have failed to win a single game out of our first 12 (assuming we don't win at Chelsea). How many teams in the PL have failed to win any of their opening 12 games and gone on to stay up? I'd suggest not many, if any.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by bobinho » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:59 pm

jojomk1 wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:27 pm
Has anyone actually seen Collins play in midfield ?
Suggest if not, there may be a reason why !
Suspect we will simply revert to the usual 4-4-2 against Brentford
Brownhill and Westwood central with Cornet and McNeil wide
Pick any one from three up front with Wood - haven't a clue who Dyche prefers
Will be interesting to see who plays at the back if Mee is available
You may not have a clue who he prefers to partner Wood, but at least you know who he doesn’t prefer.

And you know as well as I do as soon as Mee is match fit, he starts. Not saying I agree, I’m just saying that’s what he will do.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by dibraidio » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:28 pm

I feel sorry for anyone who is feeling stressed because we're in the bottom three, we're likely to be in there until sometime in December EVEN if we hit "promotion form" and get an average of 2 points a game. We're not far behind Leeds but they have got Norwich next so they'll probably move up to 10 points. The Best case scenario is that Palace lose to City and Wolves and we go ahead of them in mid November but that's still weeks away. Southampton have got Norwich to play in 3 games time too.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:17 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:37 pm
Taking these odd points here and there is all well and good. The draw at Leicester was a decent result. A draw away to Southampton isn't a terrible result, either. But draws like that without wins will see us relegated. We have to start winning games. It's as simple as that.

Under your scenario where we draw against Brentford and Palace, that means we'll have failed to win a single game out of our first 12 (assuming we don't win at Chelsea). How many teams in the PL have failed to win any of their opening 12 games and gone on to stay up? I'd suggest not many, if any.
I disagree it's becoming a very odd season where it's a 3 horse race & them teams won't be touched nobody else will come close the rest are just bang average & all capable of beating each other on the day, lots of draws are happening it's possible we could continue drawing & still stay relatively close to getting out of trouble.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:20 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:17 pm
I disagree it's becoming a very odd season where it's a 3 horse race & them teams won't be touched nobody else will come close the rest are just bang average & all capable of beating each other on the day, lots of draws are happening it's possible we could continue drawing & still stay relatively close to getting out of trouble.
Just to point it out to you... we only gain one point for drawing a game.

You have to win sooner or later.

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