Must win again Brentford?

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taio
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by taio » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:09 pm
The quality comes before the form, without the quality in this league it's unlikely you'll ever find any sort of consistent good results, we haven't phased the old guard out & replaced with younger on a incremental basis often enough.
It wasnt really in any particular order. It's not to say that we don't the some quality to improve our form.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by ksrclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:07 pm
Funnily enough in that season we actually managed to get ourselves back on an even keel. After our poor start we then got 16 points from the next 11 matches, leaving us on 20 points after 21 matches.

Missing the penalty at home to Leicester that year didn't help...
But you're always going to have spells during a season where you don't get many points. The longer those spells last for, the more likely you are to go down.

You can't afford to write off the first quarter of any season, because then you need amazing form for the rest of it, and can't afford another dodgy spell at any point. That's what happened in 2014/15, and my worry is that similar could happen this year.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:09 pm
The quality comes before the form, without the quality in this league it's unlikely you'll ever find any sort of consistent good results, we haven't phased the old guard out & replaced with younger on a incremental basis often enough.
And you're bound to be in trouble when you sign players almost specifically for the bench.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:12 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
4 wins in 29 games.

None in the last 12 kind of supports the theory
The behaviour of our players certainly doesn’t support that theory. When there was an injury stoppage did you see how intently Tarkowski was taking instructions from Dyche? Certainly didn’t look like Dyche had lost that part of the dressing room.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:13 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:07 pm
No it doesn't. It supports the view that we aren't good enough right now. If you are sure in your head Dyche has lost the dressing room do you want him gone?
No,

I think he has got to grab the team and try get them back on side.

Similar to after the Everton result

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by diamondpocket » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:14 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:07 pm
No it doesn't. It supports the view that we aren't good enough right now. If you are sure in your head Dyche has lost the dressing room do you want him gone?
If we don't win another game this year then I'd be getting shut regardless of his legend status. A time will eventually have to come, if it isn't after 6 wins in a year then I don't know when it will be. He'll have had plenty of time & options to change the tide. He makes the final decisions. He's rightly had the praise for many many seasons, he should also get the boot when it's right. 6 wins in a year is right for me. But we've still got plenty of games left to play yet before that becomes a reality.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:15 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 pm
It wasnt really in any particular order. It's not to say that we don't the some quality to improve our form.
We have some quality whether that's not enough to improve the form is highly debatable. I disagree with posters saying there's a lack of effort or commitment when I think they are trying but simply not up to the standard anymore by age regression.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by taio » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:15 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:13 pm
No,

I think he has got to grab the team and try get them back on side.

Similar to after the Everton result
If he has lost the dressing room, which I feel is complete nonsense, it won't be easy as just 'grabbing the team'

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:15 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 pm
But you're always going to have spells during a season where you don't get many points. The longer those spells last for, the more likely you are to go down.

You can't afford to write off the first quarter of any season, because then you need amazing form for the rest of it, and can't afford another dodgy spell at any point. That's what happened in 2014/15, and my worry is that similar could happen this year.
I share the same worries, but we’re not at that point yet. We need less than 1.2 points per game for the remainder of the season to almost certainly survive the drop. That’s why points at places like Leicester and Soton are still good results, but obviously need to supplemented by victories against the likes of Brentford.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by taio » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:17 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:15 pm
We have some quality whether that's not enough to improve the form is highly debatable. I disagree with posters saying there's a lack of effort or commitment when I think they are trying but simply not up to the standard anymore by age regression.
I think our form will improve, as we are starting from such a low base results wise, and so the debatable point is would that be enough to enable survival.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Elizabeth » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:18 pm

The key is improving our poor home form

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by KRBFC » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:22 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:11 pm
Didn't AC Milan pay close to €40 million for Silva before loaning him to Frankfurt?
Leipzig then paid around €27 million for him from Frankfurt

Our club doesn't have the contacts to make those sort of loan deals I'm going to suggest, so it's all very well you throwing these names round, but you're omitting certain details and ignoring our lack of European transfer network.
It took us a fair while to get the deal for Cornet over the line this summer as it was
AC Milan sold him to Frankfurt for less than £7m after loaning him initially. Lack of European transfer network? we've been a PL club for how long? sick of hearing excuses. If I can pick players out, I'm sure a highly paid ''head of international recruitment'' Ian Butterworth can. £5m on Nahki Wells, why? was Watkins not at Exeter available for £1m? How much did we spend on Brady/Hendrick/Gibson? probably £45m -50m (with wages/bonuses included), how much did we get back in fees? £8m?

This is the reason we are where we are, year on year, too much money ****** up the wall on overpriced players and not much back in return. £8m in for Vokes, Crouch in for free on big wages, why? Vydra £7m, why? he's never been fancied from day 1.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by beddie » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm

We’re short of two players, a mobile centre forward and a ball winning quality midfielder. Costly and hard to find but if we are serious about staying up then both are a must.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm

taio wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:17 pm
I think our form will improve, as we are starting from such a low base results wise, and so the debatable point is would that be enough to enable survival.
It's a nonsense debate really because it's largely based upon what others do because we can only do so much ourselves & so far results wise it's not a lot, we could lose to Brentford win our next 2 & still roughly be in the mix, you've got a thread stating Brentford is a must win & if we lose to Brentford & Leeds lose we are only still 1 win away from climbing out of the bottom 3 based on GD so how is Brentford a must win when we are that close to getting out of the bottom 3?

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:27 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:22 pm
AC Milan sold him to Frankfurt for less than £7m after loaning him initially. Lack of European transfer network? we've been a PL club for how long? sick of hearing excuses. If I can pick players out, I'm sure a highly paid ''head of international recruitment'' Ian Butterworth can. £5m on Nahki Wells, why? was Watkins not at Exeter available for £1m? How much did we spend on Brady/Hendrick/Gibson? probably £45m -50m (with wages/bonuses included), how much did we get back in fees? £8m?

This is the reason we are where we are, year on year, too much money ****** up the wall on overpriced players and not much back in return. £8m in for Vokes, Crouch in for free on big wages, why? Vydra £7m, why? he's never been fancied from day 1.
You might be sick of hearing it, but it clearly never sinks in with you.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by taio » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:27 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm
It's a nonsense debate really because it's largely based upon what others do because we can only do so much ourselves & so far results wise it's not a lot, we could lose to Brentford win our next 2 & still roughly be in the mix, you've got a thread stating Brentford is a must win & if we lose to Brentford & Leeds lose we are only still 1 win away from climbing out of the bottom 3 based on GD so how is Brentford a must win when we are that close to getting out of the bottom 3?
I don't think it is a must win.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:24 pm
It's a nonsense debate really because it's largely based upon what others do because we can only do so much ourselves & so far results wise it's not a lot, we could lose to Brentford win our next 2 & still roughly be in the mix, you've got a thread stating Brentford is a must win & if we lose to Brentford & Leeds lose we are only still 1 win away from climbing out of the bottom 3 based on GD so how is Brentford a must win when we are that close to getting out of the bottom 3?
Question not a statement ;)

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by KRBFC » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:33 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:27 pm
You might be sick of hearing it, but it clearly never sinks in with you.
Because it's excuses, what other PL club doesn't have international recruitment setup? we've been in the PL for 6 of the last 7 years....

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:34 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:29 pm
Question not a statement ;)
Well question then I believe some people are drawing hasty conclusions & fearing things are far worse than reality, Southampton aren't a bad side, I think we'll be ok in time & slowly climb.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Rombald » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:35 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:52 pm
I think Dyche has lost the dressing room. We are no longer hard to beat and the players look lack lustre nearly every game.

Difficult to see who we can beat in this league at the moment
Just when I thought comments couldn't get more ridiculous. Well done

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:40 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:33 pm
Because it's excuses, what other PL club doesn't have international recruitment setup? we've been in the PL for 6 of the last 7 years....
Yes and we've been poorly operated in some areas for a large number of years, but for whatever reason you don't seem to be able to grasp that and it's just odd.
We've also been ran very well in other areas and that's given us 6 yrs of PL football under Dyche, which I'm not sure you appreciate anymore.

That's starting to change though as shown by the Cornet signing.

Change takes time, Dyche worked within the market he had and has done very well.
Now he gets to play in a bigger area and if the Cornet signing is anything to go by, it should also go well.

All clubs make dud signings, although from your attitude it's almost like you've forgotten that too.
We have less duds than we do successes though

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by KRBFC » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:44 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:40 pm
Yes and we've been poorly operated in some areas for a large number of years, but for whatever reason you don't seem to be able to grasp that and it's just odd.
We've also been ran very well in other areas and that's given us 6 yrs of PL football under Dyche, which I'm not sure you appreciate anymore.

That's starting to change though as shown by the Cornet signing.

Change takes time, Dyche worked within the market he had and has done very well.
Now he gets to play in a bigger area and if the Cornet signing is anything to go by, it should also go well.

All clubs make dud signings, although from your attitude it's almost like you've forgotten that too.
We have less duds than we do successes though
I was just giving the reason why we are shite now, you seem to agree the recruitment has been poor for years. We are in agreement

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:48 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:40 pm
Yes and we've been poorly operated in some areas for a large number of years, but for whatever reason you don't seem to be able to grasp that and it's just odd.
We've also been ran very well in other areas and that's given us 6 yrs of PL football under Dyche, which I'm not sure you appreciate anymore.

That's starting to change though as shown by the Cornet signing.

Change takes time, Dyche worked within the market he had and has done very well.
Now he gets to play in a bigger area and if the Cornet signing is anything to go by, it should also go well.

All clubs make dud signings, although from your attitude it's almost like you've forgotten that too.
We have less duds than we do successes though

Yes, Dyche worked with a small budget, which mean "dud" signings have a greater negative impact.
Slow process, I know, but I feel that things started to go wrong immediately after our European adventure. We really have signed some expensive benchwarmers since then.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Spijed » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:55 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:48 pm
Yes, Dyche worked with a small budget, which mean "dud" signings have a greater negative impact.
Slow process, I know, but I feel that things started to go wrong immediately after our European adventure. We really have signed some expensive benchwarmers since then.
We did match our points total of 54 two seasons ago let's not forget.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:59 pm

Spijed wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:55 pm
We did match our points total of 54 two seasons ago let's not forget.
Tes, I'm not denying any successes we have had, I'm looking at what appeared to be the policy of signing players coming to the end of their (PL) careers, players whose on-pitch contributions did not match their cost to the club.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by JohnMac » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:24 pm

We will probably have to play better than anytime since Fulham away if we hope to take 3 points next week. Anything less than a win and I don't think we'll get out of the bottom 3 at all this season barring some sort of miracle.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by KRBFC » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:28 pm

I think Dyche needs to be stripped of full responsibility of transfer incomings. We could do with a transfer specialist, giving Dyche options to chose from instead of Dyche writing a wish list. I don't think any transfer recruitment specialist is paying £10m for Jay Rodriguez and paying him £50k per week nor would they sign Dale Stephens to a 2 year contract on almost £40k per week. What an incredible waste of over £20m....

However I guess we would end up with more Bamford scenarios when he was never given any kind of chance and what a terrible decision that turned out to be, I'd have Bamford over Vydra/Barnes/Rodriguez all day long. A huge part of Bamford's close family live and support Burnley too.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:32 pm

I'm not one for huge changes, tweaking the problem leads to more stability. Yet despite playing some good football this season we aren't capable of a complete performance.
Today we had the good, the bad, and the bloody ugly. Our midfield is just too old, and too slow for the Premier league.
It's radical, and against my normal instinct, but we need to make huge changes in order to rectify the weaknesses.
532, or 4132
Pope
Roberts Tarks Mee Pieters
Collins
Brownhill McNeil Cornet
Vydra Wood


It loses our oldest, slower players, carries a lot more threat, and still has strength at the back. If the midfield looks light, I'd argue it looks light when Cork and Westy are on the pitch anyway.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:49 pm

Collins as CDM?

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:56 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:49 pm
Collins as CDM?
I think this must be the line-up for the Halloween netball tournament with Collins playing his favoured position as Centre. I believe Vydra is one of best Goal Attacks in the Czech Republic so we've got a real chance this year.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:59 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:49 pm
Collins as CDM?
Just when you thought Dyche losing the dressing room was the silliest comment tonight.

:lol:
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:02 pm

Incidentally, why are certain posters on here privy to the wages of our players?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear they were pulling figures out of their bums.

;)

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Dark Cloud » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:30 pm

In answer to the op: Yes! Anything else and we're starting to look adrift and we'll be well into November without a win. Surely that only ends one way come May.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:33 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:32 pm
I'm not one for huge changes, tweaking the problem leads to more stability. Yet despite playing some good football this season we aren't capable of a complete performance.
Today we had the good, the bad, and the bloody ugly. Our midfield is just too old, and too slow for the Premier league.
It's radical, and against my normal instinct, but we need to make huge changes in order to rectify the weaknesses.
532, or 4132
Pope
Roberts Tarks Mee Pieters
Collins
Brownhill McNeil Cornet
Vydra Wood


It loses our oldest, slower players, carries a lot more threat, and still has strength at the back. If the midfield looks light, I'd argue it looks light when Cork and Westy are on the pitch anyway.
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:38 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:02 pm
Incidentally, why are certain posters on here privy to the wages of our players?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear they were pulling figures out of their bums.

;)
It's called guesswork & if you question it no doubt somebody will post an internet article confirming that belief, whether that articles factually incorrect it matters not nevertheless it will still be believed as gospel as some of the stats displayed are.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:43 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:02 pm
Incidentally, why are certain posters on here privy to the wages of our players?

If I didn't know better, I'd swear they were pulling figures out of their bums.

;)
There are numerous websites that have information about the wages of players, from most clubs.
They don't all give the exact same amount, but it gives fans a ballpark figure to work with.

That's why I've always laughed when one of the regular idiots on here used to state as fact that we had players on close to £100k a week when no website has ever said anything of the sort.
Drinkwater was the closest and that's because he was on a Chelsea contract.
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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:43 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:38 pm
It's called guesswork & if you question it no doubt somebody will post an internet article confirming that belief, whether that articles factually incorrect it matters not nevertheless it will still be believed as gospel as some of the stats displayed are.
Stats are supposed to be factual though.

Players wages aren't supposed to be disclosed. There may be some that know players personally, but even then, I doubt that the said player would be okay about having his wages made known to all and sundry. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I believe there are people who post these "details" on here to try and appear more in the know than they actually are.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:49 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:43 pm
Stats are supposed to be factual though.

Players wages aren't supposed to be disclosed. There may be some that know players personally, but even then, I doubt that the said player would be okay about having his wages made known to all and sundry. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I believe there are people who post these "details" on here to try and appear more in the know than they actually are.
Ok then I'm wrong & nobody ever posts any ******** on the internet you win. Nobody knows apart from the player & whoever that player chooses to tell maybe an agent & family close friends & people who work in the finance department at BFC & whoever they tell, if people leak information anybody can add or deduct or distort the truth.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:53 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:49 pm
Ok then I'm wrong & nobody ever posts any ******** on the internet you win. Nobody knows apart from the player & whoever that player chooses to tell maybe an agent & family close friends & people who work in the finance department at BFC & whoever they tell, if people leak information anybody can add or deduct or distort the truth.
From what I've read on here, you're very good at distorting the truth :roll:

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:56 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:53 pm
From what I've read on here, you're very good at distorting the truth :roll:
I could equally say the same about you, we can snipe at each other or leave aside the unpleasantries & have a sensible discussion just an idea or maybe I'm wasting my time.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by MrTopTier » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:58 pm

Nothing is must win in October.

We need a win though to break the cycle, a win at home stops the bad run of home form. A win gets three points on the board and potentially out of the bottom three and effectively gets our season up and running.

So whilst all that sounds obvious, a win is important, not a must win situation.... yet.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:59 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:56 pm
I could equally say the same about you, we can snipe at each other or leave aside the unpleasantries & have a sensible discussion just an idea or maybe I'm wasting my time.
I don't believe I've ever distorted the truth, but I can't be bothered arguing with you either.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Papabendi » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:01 pm

We need to win. Home form has been dreadful, and the corner has to be turned now.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Shaggy » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:08 pm

For what it’s worth we are 2nd favourite for relegation and odds on… in October.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:45 pm

fidelcastro wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:59 pm
I don't believe I've ever distorted the truth, but I can't be bothered arguing with you either.
That's extremely debatable. I think we can safely say we don't know for sure what the players are earning despite some posters claiming to know.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by fidelcastro » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:46 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:45 pm
That's extremely debatable. I think we can safely say we don't know for sure what the players are earning despite some posters claiming to know.
Agreed.

:D
This user liked this post: Jakubclaret

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by ClaretMat » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:47 pm

We need 4 wins at the very least before Christmas and this is certainly one you'd target, despite their good start.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by dsr » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:19 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:22 pm
£8m in for Vokes, Crouch in for free on big wages, why?
That's actually an easy one to answer. Let me put it this way:

We had a reserve player, past his best, who wasn't scoring. We had the chance to replace with with similar. For doing so, we would be paid £8m.

Not too difficult a decision?

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by KRBFC » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:40 pm

dsr wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:19 pm
That's actually an easy one to answer. Let me put it this way:

We had a reserve player, past his best, who wasn't scoring. We had the chance to replace with with similar. For doing so, we would be paid £8m.

Not too difficult a decision?
but long term, we now have a group of 4 strikers who are meh, the sale suited us and I think it was the right time for Vokes to leave but the funds should've been used considerably better.

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Re: Must win again Brentford?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:56 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:49 pm
Collins as CDM?
We can fall back to 3 CBs when defending, and Collins can play in front of them when we push out. He's clearly faster, and a better passer of the ball, than Tarks or Mee. They have the better experience in defence. We have to have someone in the hole in front of the backline to break up counter attacks, and I'm confident he could do a better job than the present incumbents.
I don't believe we are good enough footballers to play a conventional 3 at the back, but Collins presence would allow Pieters and Roberts to join the attacks more.

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