Having entered into a discussion about our central midfield, their lack of goals and their strength, which generally is to defend, it got me thinking as to whether a variation of 5–2-3 would be a possibility going forward.

Firstly, I’m not expecting change as 442 or 451 is without doubt SD’s chosen system. However, Nathan Collins has been absolutely excellent since his first league start and he deserves his place in the side. Coupled with the fact that Ben Mee is probably our least error-prone defender, as well as the fact that in Lowton and especially Roberts, Taylor and Cornet, we have players who could easily offer a threat higher up the pitch.

Naturally, it would be best if Cornet and McNeil were used as more attacking options, as opposed to wingback roles, so I would probably play Wood as the central striker, with McNeil and Cornet in arracking positions.

I would revert Westwood back to a deeper, sitting role in midfield alongside either Brownhill or Cork.

Recipe for disaster? Possibly, but would like your thoughts on how you’d address things. One thing of note, I’m convinced Roberts will improve us once given a run in the side.


Pope

Roberts/Lowton
Collins
Tarkowski
Mee
Taylor

Westwood
Cork/Brownhill

McNeil
Wood
Cornet

I think, once Roberts is fit, for the first time we have the personnel to make that system work. Dyche has experimented with it before so it's not totally out of the question, but he very quickly dropped it again as it has never worked.

Roberts has a lot of experience playing that system for club and for country with a lot of success. The three central defenders are clearly very good players and I'm sure could adapt to a slightly different positional game. I would question the left side a little, as I'm not sure Charlie Taylor has played in a left-wing back slot before. I'd certainly be open minded about that though.

I think in midfield I'd have the two central players, with McNeil given licence to roam in a number 10 role just in front, linking the play through the middle and with both wing backs. Wood and Cornet ahead of McNeil and I think there might just be something to work with there.

It remains to be seen whether the route out of our wretched form is to stick with the tried and tested (which has got us out of bother before), or search for something slightly different.

I think that could be a very viable plan, and when you look at the front and back in your line up they look strong indeed. It just reinforces the fact that it is the midfield that is very much the weak link at present.

I was at the game yesterday and would have said hello if I'd spotted you (if only to confirm that I am still around!).

We would get absolutely obliterated with this formation, we don’t have the athletic ability or technical ability to play such a formation.

You need CBS have that can play out from the back and CMs that can retain possession.

Codger wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:10 pm

I think that could be a very viable plan, and when you look at the front and back in your line up they look strong indeed. It just reinforces the fact that it is the midfield that is very much the weak link at present.

I was at the game yesterday and would have said hello if I'd spotted you (if only to confirm that I am still around!).

I wasn’t at the game sir. Indeed, away games are not commonplace for me at present. I’m hoping to get to Newcastle and Leeds.

Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:14 pm

We would get absolutely obliterated with this formation, we don’t have the athletic ability or technical ability to play such a formation.

You need CBS have that can play out from the back and CMs that can retain possession.

You may be right

If results don't improve sharpish (although judging yesterday's game in isolation and on its own merits a PL away point is a decent result) then we will have to try something different and what you've set out would be an option. Personally I'd prefer packing and narrowing the midfield.

Would be interesting to see it deployed if thought an improvement by the manager.

I like the idea of playing our best players, even if that means changing our 4-4-2 formation.

We are missing Ben Mee but, who do you drop to make way for him? Certainly not Collins or Tarkowski.

To counter the argument about cm needing to be good in possession, Westwood was whilst at Villa. Dyche drilled him to become more industrious.

McNeil too, could drop from the 3 up front to form a three in CM, meaning that Cornet partners Wood upfront, as he did for a period yesterday at Southampton.

………………….….... Hennessy ..…………………………

Roberts …..…Tarks…………..Mee ………….…Taylor

……………..Collins…………………Brownhill……………

………..Vydra…………Mcneil…….…Cornet……………

…………………………….Wood ……………………………….

I was saying the same thing this morning but slightly different lineup... 5 in defence without the ball, 4 in midfield when we have the ball, trying to play in the talent up front

2 in our midfield - unbelievable!

We can’t manage with 5

SalisburyClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:14 pm

2 in our midfield - unbelievable!

We can’t manage with 5

It isn't as basic as "2 in midfield" is it though...there are 3 defenders plus 2 wing backs who make it a 3-4-3 when we have the ball. Cornet and McNeil either side of Wood certainly gives us threat and creativity. Interesting thought.

I thought Brownhill, McNeil and Cornet as a 3 behind Wood yesterday looked really promising. But I thought they were let down by quite a few things: Wood just isn't anywhere near his best atm. Cork and Westwood is a spent deal. Lowton looked defensively woeful. Tarks' head is somewhere else.

I'd base my team around that 3 at the moment. It gives plenty of flexibility, and I think it gets us up the pitch so much better. I just can't see Dyche going back to 5 at the back. I'd like to see Vydra as the striker, Roberts given a chance, and Tarks put under pressure to perform when Mee is back. With Collins performing as he is, Tarks is, for the first time in a long time, droppable.

4231 for me at the moment (and a DCM absolute priority in Jan)

Woody needs a goal and but for a very good save would have got one yesterday, I feel we are getting close to that first win

We need to do something in terms of formation but what that something
is up to Dyche. Albeit his options are limited.
Strengthening in midfield seems to be needed but we haven't got the
players to do it. And waiting until the January window to try and
bring someone in might be too late.

My only thought on this is whether Roberts could switch to a more midfield role?

A long shot admittedly.

We need midfielders who are more confident at holding on to the ball a little longer than we have currently and players who come and take short passes off our back four, so that they don’t have to hit it long as often as we do. The Tarks error yesterday would be less likely to have happened. McNeil can hold on to it but has a habit of turning into an ever decreasing circle. When in possession we need to give the man with the ball more options than we currently do.

A central midfielder the priority then?

If we are going to play 4-4-2 (which we will) please let the 2 be Vydra and Cornet.

Dyche will never play 2 smallish strikers. He needs Wood to defend corners. However, Vydra has to get in the team somehow. His pace, coupled with Cornet is the key to us scoring enough to win games and thereby stay up.

Despite his poor form and slow start to the season, I would not want to see Chris Wood dropped from our starting lineup. He’s integral to how we play

Lord_Bob wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:15 pm

If we are going to play 4-4-2 (which we will) please let the 2 be Vydra and Cornet.

We can’t really do that to be honest. Cornet can play wide in a 442 with woody and vyds up top, but then we don’t necessarily get the best out of him. It’s about finding the best compromise between attacking and defending whilst getting our best 11 on the pitch. I think we may have to sacrifice Vydra to do that and go 433, with one of the front 3 dropping back at all times to get the 2 banks of 4. This is what we tried to do on Saturday and it worked at times but when their rb got forward we didn’t quite have the organisation and understanding for it yet with wood, brownhill, Cornet and cork seemingly randomly choosing who plays where.

The obvious option is to play cornet in a more traditional rigid 442 left/right position but it seems dyche also wants him breaking the back line, which leaves us exposed if nobody is ready to fill in for the counter attack.

jdrobbo wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:34 am

Despite his poor form and slow start to the season, I would not want to see Chris Wood dropped from our starting lineup. He’s integral to how we play

Integral or not, if he's not doing the things required for that style to work, he's droppable. He's losing the ball too much for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Wood's biggest fan, but he has shown plenty of times that he has qualities, and when at the top of his game is a certain starter. But too often he goes weeks or even months where he is so much off the boil, that I think we cannot afford to give him a free pass

I’m sure Dyche is ‘assessing’ (hoping ) whether Roberts can play right midfield which would allow McNeil to switch back to the left of midfield and allow Cornet a free roaming role behind/alongside Wood. This would free up Cornet from some defensive duties - we need him up front to score goals.

Might be worth trying this against Spurs?

Roberts Brownhill Westwood McNeil
—————Wood————Cornet

I think 4-2-3-2 might be a winner if we get away with it

I'd prefer 352 with Mcneil in a central midfield role with licence to roam.

Pope
Collins Tark Mee
Roberts Westwood Cork Taylor
Mcneil
Cornet Wood

I think we look a better side with Vydra starting though, so I'd probably drop Wood for him atm.

Darnhill Claret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:58 pm

We need midfielders who are more confident at holding on to the ball a little longer than we have currently and players who come and take short passes off our back four, so that they don’t have to hit it long as often as we do. The Tarks error yesterday would be less likely to have happened. McNeil can hold on to it but has a habit of turning into an ever decreasing circle. When in possession we need to give the man with the ball more options than we currently do.

Passing and composure from our central midfielders has been a problem for a while. Everything is played at 100mph!

Lord_Bob wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:15 pm

If we are going to play 4-4-2 (which we will) please let the 2 be Vydra and Cornet.

Strange how hardly anyone is including vydra in their suggestions and idea's of a different formation, including most importantly as was evident on Saturday dyche, in the right set up now having players like mcneil, cornet wood he is one of our best options, purely because he's prepared to chase lost causes and has pace, but can also play a bit and is on a similar wavelength to cornet and mcneil in terms of an attacking force, the area we clearly seem to be lacking now in this if you can call it rebuild is a cm, this in my opinion should be someone in the mould of if not Ross barkley, clearly jrod and Ashley are fast becoming players classed as not good enough, so let's try to move them on and bring 1 of quality in coupled with fast tracking 1 of Mellon, Thompson, Richardson etc.

I'd agree with Newcastle unfortunately, Tarks and Ben are too weak at the passing game to make 3 at the back effective.
Whichever system we use, we need to utilise our quickest playets, and our best passers. That means Cornet, Collins and Roberts need to play.
McNeil, Tarks, Mee and Pope are a given.
Brownhill and Taylor are on the next level, where at their best both should be starting. Brownhill seems to be the new Hendrick jack of all trades, and suffers consequently. Taylor never looks like he's got over his injury, and has been left horribly exposed at times this season, so that Pieters always looks more solid at the back.
Midfield, it always comes back to the Midfield. I love them both,but Westwood and Cork aren't a great partnership. Jack was always very weak in the tackle. When he came back from his long injury last season, he played 6 games where he looked fantastic, but he's back to where he was. Whether Westy would benefit from having a stronger partner, who knows, we haven't tried to find a long term solution, and even then they would need time to forge a partnership anyway.
But change is needed.

BleedingClaret wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:43 pm

………………….….... Hennessy ..…………………………

Roberts …..…Tarks…………..Mee ………….…Taylor

……………..Collins…………………Brownhill……………

………..Vydra…………Mcneil…….…Cornet……………

…………………………….Wood ……………………………….

Not sure whether that would work but I know one thing, if that front four clicked it would be awesome.