I can't see it posted elsewhere, but there are calls for him to go by certain people after some rather inappropriate comparisons.

I remember Stan Ternent saying something similar, many years ago, when he was describing a refereeing performance, but maybe times have changed since then.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... 037474.amp

A stupid comparison and not something I’ve heard say before, then again I’ve compared things ‘to an abortion’ in the past and that’s a terrible comparison but something I’d heard a lot growing up.
Engage brain, before opening mouth!

Not sure I’ve ever heard it used in that context.

A strange character for sure.

An inappropriate comment made by an intelligent but not well educated man.

No doubt he will apologise and should be forgiven, consequently.

Unfortunate.

A bit gormless..with probably no intention to offend whatsoever...but in this day and age there's a thousand snowflakes under every stone just desperate to be outraged.

I really wish they'd focus on the genuinely nasty dangerous people, not clowns like Joey.

fatboy47 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:12 pm

I really wish they'd focus on the genuinely nasty dangerous people, not clowns like Joey.

Yeah. Like Jeremy Corbyn.

Just seen it. What a shocking analogy. Joey? Kin'ell man.

A poor choice of words to describe a poor performance, but clearly said off the cuff on the spur of the moment without considering or realising how it could be seen or interpreted by some. Unfortunate, but surely an apology should suffice.

Unfortunate choice of words, but it's not a sacking offence. His results might be though, if they don't improve.

Hard lines, Joey. Poor words. Take your medicine and move on. Don’t read the paper underneath your chips tomorrow night.

Agree that it was probably clumsy rather than intentionally offensive but it's odd that neither he nor BRFC have apologised.

Is there a difference between the word holocaust and The Holocaust?

Yes, most definitely.

A storm causing a holocaust, is perfectly legitimate use of the word… and it’s legitimate use… IT IS WHY THE TERM WAS APPLIED To the death camps in the first place.

Joel Barton not only has nothing to apologise for,he was linguistically correct and Deserves an apology.

In many ways it’s not too much different to saying ‘Salah murdered Maguire’ etc. I remember Alan Pardew once using the term ‘he’s absolutely raped him’ which I found particularly odd.

Either way, you’ve got to be lacking in brainpower and any kind of awareness to use the word holocaust in this context.

Probably just Barton trying to come across as a bit clever and throwing an obscure word in there, but I don’t think it deserves the uproar it seems to have got.

Stan Ternent calling Dean West ‘Fred’ used to always make me chuckle.

BurnleyFC wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:15 pm

Probably just Barton trying to come across as a bit clever and throwing an obscure word in there, but I don’t think it deserves the uproar it seems to have got.

Stan Ternent calling Dean West ‘Fred’ used to always make me chuckle.

Yes me too.
Typical of the way things are though sadly. As I say the reason the Allies used the term in the first place was because it was a one word term for beyond desolation…

Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Is there a difference between the word holocaust and The Holocaust?

Yes

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:19 pm

Yes me too.
Typical of the way things are though sadly. As I say the reason the Allies used the term in the first place was because it was a one word term for beyond desolation…

The word cones from the the Greek word holokauston, itself a translation of the Hebrew olah, meaning "completely burnt offering to God,"

Long before the allies the lowercase "holocaust" has described violent deaths of large groups of people and is thought to go back to the 18th century. I believe Churchill amongst over used the word before the second world war when describing the genocide of the Armenians during the first world war.

Im sure all of this is what Joey was thinking about when he used "having a holocaust" to describe his players having a nightmare performance.

As people have pointed out idiots sometimes use foolish ill thought-out phrases but if you're gonna casually use a word like that then your fair game for the criticism.

If I was his chairman Its not his language that would be worrying me but his ability (or lack of it) as a football manager

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:35 pm

The word cones from the the Greek word holokauston, itself a translation of the Hebrew olah, meaning "completely burnt offering to God,"

Long before the allies the lowercase "holocaust" has described violent deaths of large groups of people and is thought to go back to the 18th century. I believe Churchill amongst over used the word before the second world war when describing the genocide of the Armenians during the first world war.

Im sure all of this is what Joey was thinking about when he used "having a holocaust" to describe his players having a nightmare performance.

As people have pointed out idiots sometimes use foolish ill thought-out phrases but if you're gonna casually use a word like that then your fair game for the criticism.

If I was his chairman Its not his language that would be worrying me but his ability (or lack of it) as a football manager

I didn’t say it wasn’t Ill advised… just linguistically legitimate. There seems a complete lack of any allowance for “misspoke” in today’s world. The dunking stool of the modern world.

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:35 pm

The word cones from the the Greek word holokauston, itself a translation of the Hebrew olah, meaning "completely burnt offering to God,"

Long before the allies the lowercase "holocaust" has described violent deaths of large groups of people and is thought to go back to the 18th century. I believe Churchill amongst over used the word before the second world war when describing the genocide of the Armenians during the first world war.

Im sure all of this is what Joey was thinking about when he used "having a holocaust" to describe his players having a nightmare performance.

As people have pointed out idiots sometimes use foolish ill thought-out phrases but if you're gonna casually use a word like that then your fair game for the criticism.

If I was his chairman Its not his language that would be worrying me but his ability (or lack of it) as a football manager

Apparently the word pre-dates ‘the Holocaust’ by some 700 years. Which makes me think about how some words become associated with something whilst actually not being part of it. As you rightly point out it means burnt offering or sacrifice. It also relates to mass killings of any kind (nuclear Holocaust would be a true and rightful meaning given the nature of what would happen if such a hell were to be let loose).
Having said that I think Joey has done nothing other than an error of judgment. It is difficult these days though to know what is appropriate and what isn’t. People can no longer be spontaneous for fear of saying the wrong thing. Yes some things are offensive to some people and understandably so, but if things are uttered in anger or frustration or the heat of the moment I do not think the person saying them should be hung out to dry by the PC police. People should perhaps have a quiet word with the offender, not try to publicly humiliate them or demand they lose their jobs.

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:51 pm

I didn’t say it wasn’t Ill advised… just linguistically legitimate. There seems a complete lack of any allowance for “misspoke” in today’s world. The dunking stool of the modern world.

Sorry I should have quoted when you said the following which I believe is inaccurate. Joey did not use the word in the context of a storm but in the context of his players having a nightmare it also has nothing to do with why the word was applied to the Nazi deathcamps.

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:03 pm

A storm causing a holocaust, is perfectly legitimate use of the word… and it’s legitimate use… IT IS WHY THE TERM WAS APPLIED To the death camps in the first place.

As for the dunking stool of the modern world just as Joey is free to use these words then others are just as free to criticise.

Claret wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:44 pm

Is there a difference between the word holocaust and The Holocaust?

See my recent post. The word pre-dates what became the act by around 700 years. So the answer is absolutely yes.

houseboy wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:57 pm

Apparently the word pre-dates ‘the Holocaust’ by some 700 years. Which makes me think about how some words become associated with something whilst actually not being part of it. As you rightly point out it means burnt offering or sacrifice. It also relates to mass killings of any kind (nuclear Holocaust would be a true and rightful meaning given the nature of what would happen if such a hell were to be let loose).
Having said that I think Joey has done nothing other than an error of judgment. It is difficult these days though to know what is appropriate and what isn’t. People can no longer be spontaneous for fear of saying the wrong thing. Yes some things are offensive to some people and understandably so, but if things are uttered in anger or frustration or the heat of the moment I do not think the person saying them should be hung out to dry by the PC police. People should perhaps have a quiet word with the offender, not try to publicly humiliate them or demand they lose their jobs.

I agree with most of what you say but in labelling peoples right to criticise something as "PC Police" in the same way words like woke and virtue signalling are thrown about you seem to be guilty of the very thing you are moaning about.

My view is Joey can use whatever terms he likes and people have the same right to use whatever terms they like to criticise him. He isnt being publicly humiliated or hung out to dry and a few hundred people on Twitter saying he should lose his job is nowhere near an outcry and again by being so dramatic about a storm in a teacup you seem to be acting like those you criticise

The only thing Joey should lose his job for is being a crap football manager

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:07 pm

I agree with most of what you say but in labelling peoples right to criticise something as "PC Police" in the same way words like woke and virtue signalling are thrown about you seem to be guilty of the very thing you are moaning about.

My view is Joey can use whatever terms he likes and people have the same right to use whatever terms they like to criticise him. He isnt being publicly humiliated or hung out to dry and a few hundred people on Twitter saying he should lose his job is nowhere near an outcry and again by being so dramatic about a storm in a teacup you seem to be acting like those you criticise

The only thing Joey should lose his job for is being a crap football manager

Fair enough, came on here for the news as been a busy day… didn’t realise it was a storm in a teacup

elwaclaret wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:13 pm

Fair enough, came on here for the news as been a busy day… didn’t realise it was a storm in a teacup

I think most of life is just storms in teacups

Silly statement to make, but certainly not a sacking offence. People get offended far too easily. I can't believe anyone genuinely believes Joey thinks defeat to Newport was as bad as 6 million Jews being slaughtered, so why would anyone want to take him literally. Unless they want the attention of course.

Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:07 pm

I agree with most of what you say but in labelling peoples right to criticise something as "PC Police" in the same way words like woke and virtue signalling are thrown about you seem to be guilty of the very thing you are moaning about.

My view is Joey can use whatever terms he likes and people have the same right to use whatever terms they like to criticise him. He isnt being publicly humiliated or hung out to dry and a few hundred people on Twitter saying he should lose his job is nowhere near an outcry and again by being so dramatic about a storm in a teacup you seem to be acting like those you criticise

The only thing Joey should lose his job for is being a crap football manager

You are correct and maybe I myself should be criticised for being like those I criticise. I think maybe I came across wrongly. No-one on this site believes in free speech more than I do but I perhaps failed to get across the fact that, in my opinion, there is a difference between saying something ‘general’ that could be labelled offensive and people making personal attacks on an individual because they said it. My point being that in this case Barton said something that, to certain sections of society was offensive (although he almost certainly didn’t mean to cause offence). But the response from certain people (not aimed at anyone on here by the way) has been in itself inappropriate.
The problem with free speech is that it sometimes can cause offence but rather that than people being gagged for maybe having views that don't sit too well with many. But that is a whole other argument and not for on here.

fidelcastro wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:15 pm

Yeah. Like Jeremy Corbyn.

He he still alive? He should have been shot at dawn many moons ago.

dermotdermot wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:38 am

He he still alive? He should have been shot at dawn many moons ago.

Really, any need for this .

There is also of course the 'nuclear holocaust'.

'Holocaust' is a legitimate word to use but has become a bit risky to say only because you know some people will jump on an opportunity to be offended.

Anyway, could this be the local media contacting various people that might be offended by Barton's comments. Afterall it seems to me unlikely that some of them would seek out Barton's views on Bristol Rovers performances.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:44 am

There is also of course the 'nuclear holocaust'.

'Holocaust' is a legitimate word to use but has become a bit risky to say only because you know some people will jump on an opportunity to be offended.

Anyway, could this be the local media contacting various people that might be offended by Barton's comments. Afterall it seems to me unlikely that some of them would seek out Barton's views on Bristol Rovers performances.

Do you not think that's it's possible for people to naturally feel offended by things? Granted, there are people who like to cause outrage over trivial matters, but I suspect had I been personally affected by The Holocaust then I would probably feel a bit offended that a football manager has likened those atrocities to a player having a bad game. It's an incredibly stupid thing to say and you've got to wonder what's going through his head to use that term in this context.

As for comments from representatives of the Jewish Labour Movement and various Holocaust memorial organisations, I expect these have been sought out by the BBC, and naturally these people will be keen to make sure that this word isn't trivialised. I can hardly blame them for that.

I wonder whether the mood would have been the same had one of our politicians used the same terminology rather than one of our ex-players.

Also, how did the BBC know he said the word with a capital H? All their reports appear to have assumed he said Holocaust?
I think it was an unwise word to use, though, simply because of The Holocaust.

Barton has the right to say it, people have the right to be offended by it and they have the right to voice their opposition and offence.

They do not have the right, however, to enforce any action by him, such as an apology, because of it.

IMO, of course.

It's a possibility that holocaust may be a common term to use on the training ground. "Fuckin ell Smithy, you've had an 'olocaust there mate".

Still not wise to use it in an interview but would go some way to rationalise why it was used.

dermotdermot wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:38 am

He he still alive? He should have been shot at dawn many moons ago.

Whatever your political leanings that's hardly an appropriate comment in the wake of an MP being murdered is it.

Daft comment by Barton, and he could surely have found a better word to describe Bristol Rovers performance than that.

However he shouldn't lose his job over this, results is an entirely different matter mind you.

Darthlaw wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:23 am

Barton has the right to say it, people have the right to be offended by it and they have the right to voice their opposition and offence.

They do not have the right, however, to enforce any action by him, such as an apology, because of it.

IMO, of course.

He shouldn't be forced to apologise but you'd think that after causing offence (real offence, to people who suffered as a result of the Holocaust) he would do so voluntarily

TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:40 am

It's a possibility that holocaust may be a common term to use on the training ground. "Fuckin ell Smithy, you've had an 'olocaust there mate".

Still not wise to use it in an interview but would go some way to rationalise why it was used.

This is my reading of the situation. Amongst the lads they probably use the term 'having a holocaust' for 'having a nightmare' in just a jokey way as groups of mates and colleagues do for probably loads of stupid analogies.

Im sure amongst my friends I say inappropriate things but we know each other and we know it is just messing about and we wouldn't act the same with outsiders who might take things in the wrong way

I think Joey just let the word slip in the interview as he sort of immediately corrects himself and changes it to nightmare and im sure no offence was intended but if you are in the public arena then you open yourself up by using language like he did.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:23 am

Do you not think that's it's possible for people to naturally feel offended by things?

Yes, of course. And they have every right to be if they wish. But why do they need to tell everyone about it? Who are they talking to? Most people know about the Holocaust (not just Jews died of course) and if they don't, well a quiet word would suffice surely.

It was clearly not in anyway intoning “ the holocaust “ he was simply bemoaning the inconsistency of his players ie “ one week great the next “ an absolute holocaust “ it’s certainly a very shoot from the hip choice of words but there’s no way in holy hell he was referencing the mass deaths of Jews . A quick apology would suffice for the offended imo

I was working at Highbury Stadium yesterday and the impression I got from talking to the workforce is the place is a lot calmer since he was sacked by Fleetwood

dermotdermot wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:38 am

He he still alive? He should have been shot at dawn many moons ago.

Why? Exactly. Could you enlighten us as to how you have come to the conclusion that a man should die? Or is summary execution fine in your world?

Local cricketer wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:52 pm

I was working at Highbury Stadium yesterday and the impression I got from talking to the workforce is the place is a lot calmer since he was sacked by Fleetwood

What isit that you do for work LC?