The farce that is playing out from the back.

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Spijed
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Spijed » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:23 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:06 am
Claretonthecoast suggested it's just a keeper who passes it to a defender, which is what you've stated....
Hence the irony comment.

What the defender does with it after that is up to them, but if a defender kicks it long, then it's still technically playing out from the back if he got the ball from the keeper.
Isn't that how Liverpool tend to play - give it to VVD who hoofs it up to their front three - who then ultimately give it to Salah - who then scores?

Simple ;)

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by SalisburyClaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:41 am

Spijed wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:23 am
Isn't that how Liverpool tend to play - give it to VVD who hoofs it up to their front three - who then ultimately give it to Salah - who then scores?

Simple ;)
Yep - Liverpool are the ultimate long-ball side. They haven't played out from the back since Vokes and Gray showed them how stupid it was

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by RalphCoatesComb » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:45 am

Let others do what they want. I wouldn't want my team doing it though. Too much chance of defenders being left with egg on their faces.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by minnieclaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:51 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:54 am
It always makes me smile when the goalie knocks it to the cb and he knocks it to the full back, who knocks it to the other cb, who knocks it to the goalie, who knocks it to the first cb, who then knocks it sideways to the other full back who then boots it as long and as far as he can up the line in a great impression of the brilliant Ray Deakin! What a load of emporers new clothes (imo!!)
The reason the top 5 in passing stats are CBs. Not one progressive pass amongst them. Just another meaningless stat.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by RVclaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:33 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:41 am
Yep - Liverpool are the ultimate long-ball side. They haven't played out from the back since Vokes and Gray showed them how stupid it was
A Burnley fan calling Liverpool a long ball side. Crikey.

For reference, here is the total long ball table in the Prem this year:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... long_balls

Burnley are 1st (by quite a distance). Liverpool are 13th.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:40 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:07 am
It works both ways. As you accurately point out, you don't score if you don't have the ball (Chris Wood's goal v. Arsenal being an exception :D ) but on the other hand, you don't score if you have the ball in your own half.

There are two things you must do with the ball. Get it to your own players in a goalscoring position, and stop the opposition from getting it to their players in a goalscoring position. All else is detail. If you have players like Burnley, tippy tapping to the centre halves may not be the best way to achieve either. If you have players like Man City, it may be.
As I said in my above post its horses for courses and this will be analysed to death looking at every aspect of possession football, playing out from the back, playing more direct etc and the analytics and stats most show over a period of time there is more benefit from playing out at the back and risking making a mistake than there is of booting it clear (for most top tier clubs).

Its obvious for the way we play this wouldnt work and thats why we dont do it.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by SalisburyClaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:42 am

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:33 am
A Burnley fan calling Liverpool a long ball side. Crikey.

For reference, here is the total long ball table in the Prem this year:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... long_balls

Burnley are 1st (by quite a distance). Liverpool are 13th.
As Minnie says above - Meaningless stats.

We’re known for our long balls - Liverpool are known for their long passes
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:45 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:07 am
It works both ways. As you accurately point out, you don't score if you don't have the ball (Chris Wood's goal v. Arsenal being an exception :D ) but on the other hand, you don't score if you have the ball in your own half.

There are two things you must do with the ball. Get it to your own players in a goalscoring position, and stop the opposition from getting it to their players in a goalscoring position. All else is detail. If you have players like Burnley, tippy tapping to the centre halves may not be the best way to achieve either. If you have players like Man City, it may be.
Couldnt edit but just to add in answer to your basic point about needing possession in your opponents half to score then that probably what the analytics show for a lot of teams (not us) is that you're much more likely to get possession in the other teams half by playing it out from the back and trying to keep possession than you are booting it up the field and contesting it with the other team

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:46 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:42 am
As Minnie says above - Meaningless stats.

We’re known for our long balls - Liverpool are known for their long passes
Surely the accuracy of such passes is the reason no?

(Doesn't mean that we don't do accurate passes, but I'd be amazed if we are as accurate as Liverpool are)

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:53 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:46 am
Surely the accuracy of such passes is the reason no?

(Doesn't mean that we don't do accurate passes, but I'd be amazed if we are as accurate as Liverpool are)
There is a quite a substantial difference between punting the ball up the pitch and hoping someone gets on the end of it.

To Trent Alexander Arnold hitting inch perfect cross field passes.

Again there is a reason we have lowest pass completion stats in the league.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by RVclaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:55 am

SalisburyClaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:42 am
As Minnie says above - Meaningless stats.

We’re known for our long balls - Liverpool are known for their long passes
It’s literally measured by the Premier league so hardly meaningless - it’s objective. Take the game at the weekend, Vydra’s chance was a hopeful long hooked ball over the top as was the Wood/Anderson red card situation. Created two big chances so I’m not saying it can’t work but those type of hopeful balls you would rarely see from Liverpools midfield of Thiago, Fabinho and Keira (for example).

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by SalisburyClaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:10 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:55 am
It’s literally measured by the Premier league so hardly meaningless - it’s objective. Take the game at the weekend, Vydra’s chance was a hopeful long hooked ball over the top as was the Wood/Anderson red card situation. Created two big chances so I’m not saying it can’t work but those type of hopeful balls you would rarely see from Liverpools midfield of Thiago, Fabinho and Keira (for example).
Stats as we know can be interpreted in various ways and we have no way of knowing what the PL have asked of their stat supplier.

We play in different ways we frequently play into spaces, Liverpool try to target more. Neither is better - but we are way off topic.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by dsr » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:19 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:45 am
Couldnt edit but just to add in answer to your basic point about needing possession in your opponents half to score then that probably what the analytics show for a lot of teams (not us) is that you're much more likely to get possession in the other teams half by playing it out from the back and trying to keep possession than you are booting it up the field and contesting it with the other team
True again. And of course the analytics also show that you are a lot more likely to give the opponents possession in your own half by playing it out from the back than you are booting it up the field and contesting it.

Where it all goes wrong is when you go to the other extreme. There are grumblings at Brighton about their style of play; particularly last weekend when they kept the ball for 85 minutes without looking much like scoring, and let in two late goals. Playing short passing from the back, and doing it badly, is just as dull as playing our way and doing it badly. And either style looks good when it works.

Horses for courses, like you say.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by minnieclaret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:46 am
Surely the accuracy of such passes is the reason no?

(Doesn't mean that we don't do accurate passes, but I'd be amazed if we are as accurate as Liverpool are)
I would guess the difference is we aim for Wood or Barnes head, some you win some you lose.
Liverpool aim down the wing for Mane or Salah to run onto and they normally retain possession.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:25 pm

dsr wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:19 pm
True again. And of course the analytics also show that you are a lot more likely to give the opponents possession in your own half by playing it out from the back than you are booting it up the field and contesting it.

Where it all goes wrong is when you go to the other extreme. There are grumblings at Brighton about their style of play; particularly last weekend when they kept the ball for 85 minutes without looking much like scoring, and let in two late goals. Playing short passing from the back, and doing it badly, is just as dull as playing our way and doing it badly. And either style looks good when it works.

Horses for courses, like you say.
Well I think we aren't that far from agreement which is pretty good going for us and I wasn't making any comments around style and exciting or dull it is as I agree with your point on that.

It is a lot more nuanced and there are good discussions on all sides but the extreme opinions as per this thread are usually more the people who categorically say it is terrible full stop and claim its just a fad rather than accept that managers will look at things in their full context and do what they see as being right for their club and getting the best results

I definitely would agree that some teams in the bottom half would be better served to be more like us in clearing their lines but then again the club has the stats, analysis and experts so what do I know
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by dibraidio » Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:35 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:33 am
A Burnley fan calling Liverpool a long ball side. Crikey.

For reference, here is the total long ball table in the Prem this year:

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... long_balls

Burnley are 1st (by quite a distance). Liverpool are 13th.
That site doesn't give stats on crosses. It doesn't appear to distinguish between long passes, crosses and long balls. The ratio of passes to long balls for Burnley is around 1:4.6 which sounds about right because we try and transition quickly and after 4 or 5 passes the ball will either get punted forward into the channels or someone will try and cross it into the box.

Another notable thing in that set of stats is that Burnley have been dispossessed as many times as Norwich.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:38 pm

dibraidio wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:35 pm
That site doesn't give stats on crosses. It doesn't appear to distinguish between long passes, crosses and long balls. The ratio of passes to long balls for Burnley is around 1:4.6 which sounds about right because we try and transition quickly and after 4 or 5 passes the ball will either get punted forward into the channels or someone will try and cross it into the box.

Another notable thing in that set of stats is that Burnley have been dispossessed as many times as Norwich.
The Palace match was typical, they were far better than us at moving the ball, and holding on to it. You can expect the long pass
to occasionally go astray, but even our short passing was poor. It's something we had improved on this season. Yet somehow we managed to create more chances than them.

I think playing out from the back is madness, unless you have the quality to do it, which is a very small group of teams, probably the top 3 only, and even they make rickets on a regular basis.
The style doesn't bother me as much as the apish way others follow it. Nowhere near enough individuality in management. I blame it on the must have coaching badges turning out clones. Why it is necessary to have to be accredited in order to organise a team is head shaking.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:47 am

This week - Brighton very nearly losing the game late on at home to Leeds through this utter madness. Let’s see if we see more calamitous defending today.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Spijed » Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:48 pm

Good to see Moyes doesn't subscribe to playing out from the back when they didn't have to.

Good old school management.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Winstonswhite » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:33 pm

Just catching up with MOTD and Arsenal scored one of the goals of the season playing out from the back on Saturday. When it works it’s a delight to watch.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:38 pm

Is there any stats on how many goals have been conceded in the Prem League this season from an error whilst trying to play out from the back?

Must be a fair few given the noise made about it

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:53 pm

It's needless tripe most of the time.

Some folk think that it's something new, but some teams were playing out from the back as far back as the 70's. What they weren't doing though is p1ssing about playing it across the 6 yard box with the goalie and the worst ball players in a team.

Thick as pig sh1t stuff is that.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Rowls » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:15 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:38 pm
Is there any stats on how many goals have been conceded in the Prem League this season from an error whilst trying to play out from the back?

Must be a fair few given the noise made about it
Might be worth collecting them at the end of the season now Eddie Howe has got his Newcastle side playing this way. Maybe do before and after comparison?

I can still feel the fear from whenever we "conceded a goal kick" under the Howe tenure at Turf Moor.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by RVclaret » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:26 pm

Arsenal’s goal at the weekend was a thing of beauty. One touch passing along the floor from back to front.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:27 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:15 pm
Might be worth collecting them at the end of the season now Eddie Howe has got his Newcastle side playing this way. Maybe do before and after comparison?

I can still feel the fear from whenever we "conceded a goal kick" under the Howe tenure at Turf Moor.
Whats the before then?

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Rowls » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:30 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:27 pm
Whats the before then?
Before Howe took over at Newcastle compared to afterwards.

These kind of goals are sure to increase now Howe is back in the Prem with such an awful defence. Expect a fair few more if he persists on trying to play out from goalkicks at Newcastle.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:35 pm

Rowls wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:30 pm
Before Howe took over at Newcastle compared to afterwards.

These kind of goals are sure to increase now Howe is back in the Prem with such an awful defence. Expect a fair few more if he persists on trying to play out from goalkicks at Newcastle.
What I asked is how many have been conceded so far this season. Do you know?

If you want to compare before and after Howe took over at Newcastle then you probably need to know the before or you're gonna struggle. Im not that interested in Newcastle per se but happy to help you out with my advice

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Rowls » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:40 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:35 pm
What I asked is how many have been conceded so far this season. Do you know?

If you want to compare before and after Howe took over at Newcastle then you probably need to know the before or you're gonna struggle. Im not that interested in Newcastle per se but happy to help you out with my advice
Thank you for your advice. I've always found it to be sage and genuine.

I don't know the answer to the question you're searching for. Conceding by trying play out from the back hasn't been a concern of mine for ... ohhhhh, I'd say about 9 years and 2 months now.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by KefkaClaret » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:20 am

We should play out from the back to stop Pope kicking it out for a throw-in. 7 times a game.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:20 pm

Forest have just conceded the most ridiculous goal you will see all season

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Burnleyareback2 » Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:47 pm

KefkaClaret wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:20 am
We should play out from the back to stop Pope kicking it out for a throw-in. 7 times a game.
When you say 7 times a game do you mean once every now and again?

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:06 pm


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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by maccclaret » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:37 am

I watched Oldham trying to do this yesterday; 2 CHs on the edge of the 6 yard box, 2 FBs 6 yards from the bye-line just outside the box, then nobody until the centre circle. Bonkers. It was like the coach watches Man City on MOTD and imagines gliding through League 2 teams in a similar way, but neither he nor the players have the ability to set it up or execute it.
They eventually gave up when the boos from the crowd became too loud and regular to ignore, about 10 minutes into the second half.
It didn’t cost them a goal, but only because they were playing S*unthorpe.

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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.

Post by Claretitus » Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:13 pm

Saw a bit of St.Johnstone v Celtic on tv yesterday. St.Johnstone we’re trying it and failing miserably, their players were like Div2/National League standard, and clearly not up to it ability wise. Mind you their head coach is Blackburn and Knob End legend Callum Davidson :lol: :lol:

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