The farce that is playing out from the back.
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The farce that is playing out from the back.
I really do not understand why so many teams insist on playing out from the back. I watched United last night and Villareal did this constantly and they were eventually caught out. A ball out from the keeper, their cb got caught and it left ronaldo 1v1. If we did this it would drive me crazy! The amount of goals I see like this these days it’s just madness. Our goal last season vs Arsenal at home is another prime example. Barcelona and Guardiola seemed to start this trend off, and when they did it it was fantastic to watch, but ultimately they had the best in the world at the time that was able to do it consistently, the same with city now. This has lead to every man and his dog attempting it and it’s just gone complete overkill. Sides like Norwich coming up and trying it, got found out and went down. Goalkeepers are now judged on their passing rather than the job they are actually paid to do - keep the ball out of the bloody net! I know we can be a pain to watch at times but predominantly our defenders defend, and our goalkeeper does his job well. I yearn for football to return to the days where teams had their own style and way of playing, rather than the identikit teams we see today which leaves little to the imagination.
Sorry had to get that off my chest. UTC.
Sorry had to get that off my chest. UTC.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I’ve no doubt the statistics back up that you keep possession far better that lumping it forward and hoping to hit your striker.
In this situation I think us Burnley fans are probably wrong even though my feelings are the same as yours, I actually love it when teams do it to us, particularly with players like Vydra and Cornet to put pressure on.
In this situation I think us Burnley fans are probably wrong even though my feelings are the same as yours, I actually love it when teams do it to us, particularly with players like Vydra and Cornet to put pressure on.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I'm more than happy for average teams to keep trying to do it against us.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I disagree. Most teams may keep possession for three or four passes then end up hitting it long. They just delay the inevitable and invite pressure onto players who aren't good enough to get away with it.Burnley1989 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:33 amI’ve no doubt the statistics back up that you keep possession far better that lumping it forward and hoping to hit your striker.
In this situation I think us Burnley fans are probably wrong even though my feelings are the same as yours, I actually love it when teams do it to us, particularly with players like Vydra and Cornet to put pressure on.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
This argument was made on here last year. Pretty sure all the stats indicated that teams that passed it out from the back conceded less and scored more.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:36 amI disagree. Most teams may keep possession for three or four passes then end up hitting it long. They just delay the inevitable and invite pressure onto players who aren't good enough to get away with it.
There’s a reason all the best teams in world football play out from the back.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
That’s how I feel it just amazes me that with that they wouldn’t be aware of this and would continue if it didn’t work better for them in the long run.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:36 amI disagree. Most teams may keep possession for three or four passes then end up hitting it long. They just delay the inevitable and invite pressure onto players who aren't good enough to get away with it.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
& it’s paying dividends with a cursory glance at the league table.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:34 amI'm more than happy for average teams to keep trying to do it against us.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I'm talking about the average and poor teams (Norwich as a prime example) doing it.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:39 amThis argument was made on here last year. Pretty sure all the stats indicated that teams that passed it out from the back conceded less and scored more.
There’s a reason all the best teams in world football play out from the back.
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
When it comes off it’s beautiful to watch. Watch some of Maurizio Sarri’s Napoli from 2015-2018, their tactics involved literally sucking teams in to press them and then playing through the press with one touch vertical passing which opened up space for Insigne/Higuain/Mertens to attack.
Obviously it’s not easily done due to the pressure and some teams do mess up if certain players or the coaching isn’t good enough. For example Potter’s Brighton didn’t master it for two seasons but now it seems to have clicked, they now play some excellent passing football through the field.
Obviously it’s not easily done due to the pressure and some teams do mess up if certain players or the coaching isn’t good enough. For example Potter’s Brighton didn’t master it for two seasons but now it seems to have clicked, they now play some excellent passing football through the field.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I think they would argue that what got them to the premier leagueTheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:40 amI'm talking about the average and poor teams (Norwich as a prime example) doing it.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Because a few managers with the most expensive and best squads in the world do it, then the brainwashed think it is the only way to do things.
Can't think of anything more stupid than going up against a team with better players and playing the way they do. Sheep will be sheep though.
Can't think of anything more stupid than going up against a team with better players and playing the way they do. Sheep will be sheep though.
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Obviously the counter-argument and stronger case is adapt for the Premier League or you are likely to be relegatedNewcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:50 amI think they would argue that what got them to the premier league
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Crystal Palace did it very well on Saturday in the first half. People assume it's our midfield that let us down but we usually stand 10 yards off players and aren't quick enough to get there, or sharp enough reading the game.
When we got a lot closer to them 2nd half they struggled more, but Palace are only a few games into playing this way.
When we got a lot closer to them 2nd half they struggled more, but Palace are only a few games into playing this way.
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Not to the extent of what is being described here i.e. where some some of the top teams are often playing it out from their own box. 90% of teams aren't doing that. And the poorer teams that try to overplay out from the back are more likely to be relegated.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:07 amTo be fair Taio I would say 90% of premier league teams play out from the back.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Because they’re the best teams with the best players. Stats are pretty useless for this IMHO, as you can make them fit whatever you’re trying to prove. The only benefit I see for most teams outside of the top 6-8, is the fact that it gives your players a slight rest versus the hit it long but it might come right back at you tactic.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:39 amThis argument was made on here last year. Pretty sure all the stats indicated that teams that passed it out from the back conceded less and scored more.
There’s a reason all the best teams in world football play out from the back.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Playing across the back four against fast teams like Palace is utter madness
We get robbed often in cm and are on the back foot straight off
We need to encourage our wide players to want the ball attack the opposition and press
Dwight though ofter drifts off his wing leaving Charlie no option but to pass sideways or try a charge from his own half
We get robbed often in cm and are on the back foot straight off
We need to encourage our wide players to want the ball attack the opposition and press
Dwight though ofter drifts off his wing leaving Charlie no option but to pass sideways or try a charge from his own half
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
True you can make any stat support a view.box_of_frogs wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:17 amBecause they’re the best teams with the best players. Stats are pretty useless for this IMHO, as you can make them fit whatever you’re trying to prove. The only benefit I see for most teams outside of the top 6-8, is the fact that it gives your players a slight rest versus the hit it long but it might come right back at you tactic.
I would suggest that all off the worlds top managers are not just “brainwashed” and are actually very good at there jobs.
It’s been proven over the last 20 odd years that playing out from the back is the most successful way of playing football.
However as you highlighted you need the correct players. Which is why for the life of me I can’t understand how anyone wants to play three at the back, a formation which relies on the progressive passing of CBs
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
On their main forum their fans were critical of the way they were playing out from the back saying it was the wrong tactic in the second half.Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:11 amCrystal Palace did it very well on Saturday in the first half. People assume it's our midfield that let us down but we usually stand 10 yards off players and aren't quick enough to get there, or sharp enough reading the game.
When we got a lot closer to them 2nd half they struggled more, but Palace are only a few games into playing this way.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
There are stats and stats. That one is fake.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:39 amThis argument was made on here last year. Pretty sure all the stats indicated that teams that passed it out from the back conceded less and scored more.
There’s a reason all the best teams in world football play out from the back.
How many goal do you see that start from the keeper passing it out at the back v. how many goals do you see conceded from the same start?
Conceded wins every time.
The best teams score more and concede less is the reason they are the best teams. Nothing to do with the starting position.
There is another stat that most goals are scored from less than 5 touches, you don’t score if 3 of them are in your own penalty area.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
^^^^This^^^^Burnley1989 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:33 amI’ve no doubt the statistics back up that you keep possession far better that lumping it forward and hoping to hit your striker.
In this situation I think us Burnley fans are probably wrong even though my feelings are the same as yours, I actually love it when teams do it to us, particularly with players like Vydra and Cornet to put pressure on.
Its horses for courses and think there's probably some teams where its more borderline and they'd be better off mixing it up more or being like us but the football analyst guys who the top managers (including Dyche) rely on will be assessing all sorts of things and it obviously indicates for most top level teams keeping possession outweighs the risks of making an error passing it out at the back.
It wouldn't work for Burnley and Im sure the analytics that Dyche uses backs that up hence why we dont do it however other clubs will employ the tactics that look to work best for them.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
You dont score if you haven't got the ball eitherminnieclaret wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:52 amThere are stats and stats. That one is fake.
How many goal do you see that start from the keeper passing it out at the back v. how many goals do you see conceded from the same start?
Conceded wins every time.
The best teams score more and concede less is the reason they are the best teams. Nothing to do with the starting position.
There is another stat that most goals are scored from less than 5 touches, you don’t score if 3 of them are in your own penalty area.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:37 amTrue you can make any stat support a view.
I would suggest that all off the worlds top managers are not just “brainwashed” and are actually very good at there jobs.
It’s been proven over the last 20 odd years that playing out from the back is the most successful way of playing football.
However as you highlighted you need the correct players. Which is why for the life of me I can’t understand how anyone wants to play three at the back, a formation which relies on the progressive passing of CBs
PSG play out from the back and couldn't even win the french league with the cheating squad they have assembled.
If all 20 teams in the Premier League play out from the back only 1 can win it that means 19 can't, so how does your daft stat even get close to the truth. This is the problem for people who judge everything in football by stats rather than their own eyes.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
And what were the team doing that won Ligue 1? yes they played out from the back.claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:56 amPSG play out from the back and couldn't even win the french league with the cheating squad they have assembled.
If all 20 teams in the Premier League play out from the back only 1 can win it that means 19 can't, so how does your daft stat even get close to the truth. This is the problem for people who judge everything in football by stats rather than their own eyes.
Come on claret who have you seen win a league recently not playing out from the back? Before you say Leicester, they did play out from the back it was what made there counter attacks so successful.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Different fans have different opinions but if you're playing 451 with Gallagher supporting the striker, then they will need to build up more as a team.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 amAnd what were the team doing that won Ligue 1? yes they played out from the back.
Come on claret who have you seen win a league recently not playing out from the back? Before you say Leicester, they did play out from the back it was what made there counter attacks so successful.
You said a stat shows that teams playing out from the back are the most successful. I am just showing you that a team that PSG couldn't even win the French league doing so.
You also said stats show teams playing out from the back concede less (again this stat is ********)
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Yes and I am showing you that even though PSG didn’t win it a team with a considerably lower budget won it by playing out from the backclaretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:08 amYou said a stat shows that teams playing out from the back are the most successful. I am just showing you that a team that PSG couldn't even win the French league doing so.
You also said stats show teams playing out from the back concede less (again this stat is ********)
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Stats will show England beat San Marino and we played out from the back. Do you think that is why we beat them ?Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:10 amYes and I am showing you that even though PSG didn’t win it a team with a considerably lower budget won it by playing out from the back
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I like it, and I like our way of doing it as well (we mix it up a lot more than we get credit for)
And it has to be said, its a great way of teaching the basics of football like movement, control, quickness and accuracy of passing, so its also good to watch it being attempted by most teams at kids level
And it has to be said, its a great way of teaching the basics of football like movement, control, quickness and accuracy of passing, so its also good to watch it being attempted by most teams at kids level
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
That's true about kids' teams. Some of the football the juniors play even at grassroots level is ridiculous now compared to years gone by. There's teams in mid-level Sheffield u12s league playing like 2010 Barcelona - or at least trying to. Good to see. Although I quite like it when we leather it up to the big man too, so happy to watch it all.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:14 amI like it, and I like our way of doing it as well (we mix it up a lot more than we get credit for)
And it has to be said, its a great way of teaching the basics of football like movement, control, quickness and accuracy of passing, so its also good to watch it being attempted by most teams at kids level
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
LiverpoolNewcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 amAnd what were the team doing that won Ligue 1? yes they played out from the back.
Come on claret who have you seen win a league recently not playing out from the back? Before you say Leicester, they did play out from the back it was what made there counter attacks so successful.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Leicester played it long quite often to Vardy and still doNewcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:01 amAnd what were the team doing that won Ligue 1? yes they played out from the back.
Come on claret who have you seen win a league recently not playing out from the back? Before you say Leicester, they did play out from the back it was what made there counter attacks so successful.
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
More long passes than any other PL club when they won the title.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Yes they suck teams in from playing out from the back. That allows them to break very quickly with direct balls.claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:40 amLeicester played it long quite often to Vardy and still do
They still play out from the back
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Think its safe to say that nobody has had a greater influence on football than Pep GuardiolaNottsClaret wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:22 amThat's true about kids' teams. Some of the football the juniors play even at grassroots level is ridiculous now compared to years gone by. There's teams in mid-level Sheffield u12s league playing like 2010 Barcelona - or at least trying to. Good to see. Although I quite like it when we leather it up to the big man too, so happy to watch it all.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Cruyff?Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:47 amThink its safe to say that nobody has had a greater influence on football than Pep Guardiola
He's the one who inspired Pep, created the Barca academy and it's philosophy etc.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Playing out from the back (besides being monumentally boring to watch) carries a high risk - so the benefits have to outweigh that risk - do they?
Of course they don't, unless you have a billion-pound squad and an outstanding manager and even then you get caught out.
The only benefit is if you know the opposition's method of pressing and have a plan on how to open them up when they move into that position. Pep does this, the others just think it's about possession- and after a while they get fired.
Of course they don't, unless you have a billion-pound squad and an outstanding manager and even then you get caught out.
The only benefit is if you know the opposition's method of pressing and have a plan on how to open them up when they move into that position. Pep does this, the others just think it's about possession- and after a while they get fired.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
It always makes me smile when the goalie knocks it to the cb and he knocks it to the full back, who knocks it to the other cb, who knocks it to the goalie, who knocks it to the first cb, who then knocks it sideways to the other full back who then boots it as long and as far as he can up the line in a great impression of the brilliant Ray Deakin! What a load of emporers new clothes (imo!!)
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Using this weird logic any move that starts from the keeper is playing out from the back, even if he rolls it 10 yards and a defender plays an 80 yard ballNewcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:42 amYes they suck teams in from playing out from the back. That allows them to break very quickly with direct balls.
They still play out from the back
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
ProbablyGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:48 amCruyff?
He's the one who inspired Pep, created the Barca academy and it's philosophy etc.
Been refined to almost perfect by Pep though
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I suggest you Google the definition of playing out from the back. It will help you understandclaretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:55 amUsing this weird logic any move that starts from the keeper is playing out from the back, even if he rolls it 10 yards and a defender plays an 80 yard ball
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
IronyNewcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:00 amI suggest you Google the definition of playing out from the back. It will help you understand
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
First post that came up on google.
“teams tend to play out from the back which means that they pass the ball out from the goalkeeper to defenders rather than kicking it long. ... They do this to try and entice the opposing team to press them so that there will be more space in behind them.”
This is exactly what Leicester and Liverpool did during there league wins.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
I’m looking forward to watching the current Newcastle team develop this style under Howe.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Claretonthecoast suggested it's just a keeper who passes it to a defender, which is what you've stated....Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:03 amFirst post that came up on google.
“teams tend to play out from the back which means that they pass the ball out from the goalkeeper to defenders rather than kicking it long. ... They do this to try and entice the opposing team to press them so that there will be more space in behind them.”
This is exactly what Leicester and Liverpool did during there league wins.
Hence the irony comment.
What the defender does with it after that is up to them, but if a defender kicks it long, then it's still technically playing out from the back if he got the ball from the keeper.
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
It works both ways. As you accurately point out, you don't score if you don't have the ball (Chris Wood's goal v. Arsenal being an exception ) but on the other hand, you don't score if you have the ball in your own half.
There are two things you must do with the ball. Get it to your own players in a goalscoring position, and stop the opposition from getting it to their players in a goalscoring position. All else is detail. If you have players like Burnley, tippy tapping to the centre halves may not be the best way to achieve either. If you have players like Man City, it may be.
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Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
My sentiments almost entirely and what the Premier League do others are bound to follow.gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:28 amI really do not understand why so many teams insist on playing out from the back. I watched United last night and Villareal did this constantly and they were eventually caught out. A ball out from the keeper, their cb got caught and it left ronaldo 1v1. If we did this it would drive me crazy! The amount of goals I see like this these days it’s just madness. Our goal last season vs Arsenal at home is another prime example. Barcelona and Guardiola seemed to start this trend off, and when they did it it was fantastic to watch, but ultimately they had the best in the world at the time that was able to do it consistently, the same with city now. This has lead to every man and his dog attempting it and it’s just gone complete overkill. Sides like Norwich coming up and trying it, got found out and went down. Goalkeepers are now judged on their passing rather than the job they are actually paid to do - keep the ball out of the bloody net! I know we can be a pain to watch at times but predominantly our defenders defend, and our goalkeeper does his job well. I yearn for football to return to the days where teams had their own style and way of playing, rather than the identikit teams we see today which leaves little to the imagination.
Sorry had to get that off my chest. UTC.
Watching local football and it's the same sort of nonsense going on week after week.
Re: The farce that is playing out from the back.
Pope passes it to Mee quite a few times during a game.claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:55 amUsing this weird logic any move that starts from the keeper is playing out from the back, even if he rolls it 10 yards and a defender plays an 80 yard ball
Total football!
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