Attack On Pearl Harbor......

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BurnleyMickSouth
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Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by BurnleyMickSouth » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:51 pm

Just watched episode one of the TRUE story of the Japanese suprise attack on pearl harbour, its on Channel 5, and its running over 3 nights at 9-00pm, you can see last nights episode on catch up, excellent documentary, well worth the watch if you like history, one Japanese pilot is 103 yrs old, he says that nobody would be returning to Japan, well he got that wrong !, also the Yanks got it all wrong regarding the chain of command, but a very good watch, and its ALL true....enjoy if you get to watch it.......by the way we have a very good head to head with Wolves at there place.....COYC.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:59 pm

BurnleyMickSouth wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:51 pm
Just watched episode one of the TRUE story of the Japanese suprise attack on pearl harbour, its on Channel 5, and its running over 3 nights at 9-00pm, you can see last nights episode on catch up, excellent documentary, well worth the watch if you like history, one Japanese pilot is 103 yrs old, he says that nobody would be returning to Japan, well he got that wrong !, also the Yanks got it all wrong regarding the chain of command, but a very good watch, and its ALL true....enjoy if you get to watch it.......by the way we have a very good head to head with Wolves at there place.....COYC.
My fantasy football team this year is named after the Japanese code word for the commencement of the Operation

Might watch that on catch up

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:01 pm

The best documentary is “Tora, Tora, Tora”
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:03 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:01 pm
The best documentary is “Tora, Tora, Tora”
Yeah, its a bit ropey in places but its about as accurate as a film is going to get, and when you consider when it was made, its a remarkably balanced piece

And the scene when the first Japanese planes appear over Pearl Harbour and the alarm gongs start going off is still one of my favourite scenes from any war movie

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:06 pm


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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:07 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:03 pm
Yeah, its a bit ropey in places but its about as accurate as a film is going to get, and when you consider when it was made, its a remarkably balanced piece

And the scene when the first Japanese planes appear over Pearl Harbour and the alarm gongs start going off is still one of my favourite scenes from any war movie
The bit when the private plane (flying lesson?) gets overtaken by the planes! Haven’t watched it for 40 years!!
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by BurnleyMickSouth » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:08 pm

Thats the name of the FILM, but the Japanese words for the real attack was tor, tor, tor, it was said that Tora, Tora, Tora, was for the film version, to make it more understandable ?.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:10 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:07 pm
The bit when the private plane (flying lesson?) gets overtaken by the planes! Haven’t watched it for 40 years!!
That bit is sadly untrue, but its as dramatic licenses go, its a damn fine one

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:11 pm

BurnleyMickSouth wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:08 pm
Thats the name of the FILM, but the Japanese words for the real attack was tor, tor, tor, it was said that Tora, Tora, Tora, was for the film version, to make it more understandable ?.
Ah, the code word for the attack was "Climb Mount Nikata"

I think (going from memory here) that "Tora Tora Tora" was what the Japanese attack force was to signal to the flagship of the Kido Butai if they had achieved complete surprise

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Hipper » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 pm

On the Smithsonian Channel recently there was 'America's Hidden Stories', Season 1 Episode 4, Pearl Harbor Spies.

Basically, Japanese, British and Americans spied for the Japanese as well is their own FBI not releasing information about some spying they discovered.

The Yanks should also have learnt lessons from the British attack on Taranto, Italy, as the Japanese had.

In the end though, Pearl Harbor was a failure for the Japanese as, by luck it seems, they did not destroy the US aircraft carriers which were at sea at the time.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm

Hipper wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:10 pm
On the Smithsonian Channel recently there was 'America's Hidden Stories', Season 1 Episode 4, Pearl Harbor Spies.

Basically, Japanese, British and Americans spied for the Japanese as well is their own FBI not releasing information about some spying they discovered.

The Yanks should also have learnt lessons from the British attack on Taranto, Italy, as the Japanese had.

In the end though, Pearl Harbor was a failure for the Japanese as, by luck it seems, they did not destroy the US aircraft carriers which were at sea at the time.
Thing is, even if they had destroyed the carriers, it would have made little difference as US Industrial production and already planned fleet expansion (Rowe-Vinson? Again, memory not sure but its something like that) would have completely altered the naval balance in the Pacific

Essentially the US forced Japan to either fight or surrender all its gains in China and Indo-China by enforcing the oil blockade with the UK and the DEI

And its safe to say that both sides knew that not fighting wasn't an option, but the US never considered an attack on Pearl Harbour was likely or achievable

In short, no one used massed carriers like the Japanese did in 1941 (First Carrier Striking Force or Kido Butai) and it came as a complete shock to all just now modern and efficient the IJN was

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by claretburns » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:52 pm

I heard on a documentary that by the end of the war America were producing a new carrier each month.

Also on the day of the Pearl Harbor attack it was ironically America who fired first that day sinking a Japanese sub at 7 in the morning.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:59 pm

claretburns wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:52 pm
I heard on a documentary that by the end of the war America were producing a new carrier each month.

Also on the day of the Pearl Harbor attack it was ironically America who fired first that day sinking a Japanese sub at 7 in the morning.
First shots of the war was in the South China Sea, when an RAAF Seaplane was shot down because it had spotted the Malaya Invasion force

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by superdimitri » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:35 pm

If you look at how close the battle of Midway was from turning one way into another I'm not really sure you can say that the sinking of the carriers wouldn't have made a difference. The 3 American carriers involved in Midway were all away from Pearl Harbor.
It was only 6 months after the Pearl Harbor attack and you have to remember sinking a ship is not only about armament, but sinking an experienced crew too.
Not only that but one of the carriers was also used in the Doolittle raid which was the Americans way of warning the Japanese they could attack them too.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:35 pm
If you look at how close the battle of Midway was from turning one way into another I'm not really sure you can say that the sinking of the carriers wouldn't have made a difference. The 3 American carriers involved in Midway were all away from Pearl Harbor.
It was only 6 months after the Pearl Harbor attack and you have to remember sinking a ship is not only about armament, but sinking an experienced crew too.
Not only that but one of the carriers was also used in the Doolittle raid which was the Americans way of warning the Japanese they could attack them too.
Oh, short term - yeah

But what could the Japanese have done short term more than they did?

By June 1942, they had conquered everything that they could (and had already started to over stretch their logistic capabilities)

Yeah, they might have grabbed Midway and some other islands but there was never any chance they could take Hawaii or India or Australia

The Japanese Merchant Marine, the Army, the Air fOrce, the Navy absolutely had their hands full just dealing and supplying the troops with what they had

Some of the stories of supply issues amongst the Japanese at Guadalcanal and New Guinea for example are horrifying

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Claret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:46 pm

From the true documentary - How ridiculous was this: the Japanese commander would send a signal of one flare if the attack was a complete surprise but 2 flares if the Americans had got wind of the attack. This was so that the Japanese pilots knew what formation to take and what targets would be attacked first. Well, the attack was a complete surprise and a single flare was sent up, but the commander wasn’t sure the squadron leader had seen it so he sent up another flare! Many Japanese pilots thought it was the “we’ve been rumbled” signal and attacked the wrong targets first.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:50 pm

Claret wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:46 pm
From the true documentary - How ridiculous was this: the Japanese commander would send a signal of one flare if the attack was a complete surprise but 2 flares if the Americans had got wind of the attack. This was so that the Japanese pilots knew what formation to take and what targets would be attacked first. Well, the attack was a complete surprise and a single flare was sent up, but the commander wasn’t sure the squadron leader had seen it so he sent up another flare! Many Japanese pilots thought it was the “we’ve been rumbled” signal and attacked the wrong targets first.
Well, the main targets where the BBs and Carriers, and with the carriers not there, the BBs got particularly hard hit

But you have to remember that this was a new type of warfare, and the real targets that would (with hindsight!) have really slowed the USN down would have been attacking the fuel tanks (over a years worth of fuel in there (again, going from memory so might not be correct) and the submarines

People go on about the Battle of the Atlantic v the U-boats, but the Japanese comprehensively lost the Battle of the Pacific versus the USN Submarines

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by BurnleyMickSouth » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:42 pm

Joking aside, the yanks only needed one Carrier, she was called the Enola Gay, B52, just Carried one bomb, the atomic one............result....end of the war, but the yanks gave the Japanese another one just in case, war is not a good thing too many innocent people die, and what for, hope i am not around for the 3rd world war ?, god help us ALL.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by grapidianclaret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:44 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:36 pm
A nip.in the air huh?
I wonder if we have any Japanese Clarets fans.
Lets hope not eh?

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Bosscat » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:47 pm

grapidianclaret wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:44 pm
I wonder if we have any Japanese Clarets fans.
Lets hope not eh?
Konichiwa grapidianclaret san

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by superdimitri » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:13 pm

grapidianclaret wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:44 pm
I wonder if we have any Japanese Clarets fans.
Lets hope not eh?
Judging by the use of the term Yanks used here by many, I hope we don't have any American fans either...not to mention our owners.

Let's let go of the derogatory terms, eh? It's not 1944 anymore.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Summerseat Claret » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:34 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Oh, short term - yeah

But what could the Japanese have done short term more than they did?

By June 1942, they had conquered everything that they could (and had already started to over stretch their logistic capabilities)

Yeah, they might have grabbed Midway and some other islands but there was never any chance they could take Hawaii or India or Australia

The Japanese Merchant Marine, the Army, the Air fOrce, the Navy absolutely had their hands full just dealing and supplying the troops with what they had

Some of the stories of supply issues amongst the Japanese at Guadalcanal and New Guinea for example are horrifying
I'm with you on this Lancs - given the difference in industrial capabilities there is no way that the Japanese could have won or even held their own in a war with America in a conflict of any length. The view of Jonathan Parshall, who to my mind is the leading expert on the Battle of Midway, is that the battle was a huge tactical victory, but it wasn't really a turning point in the war as ultimate American victory was inevitable anyway.

At one stage a bit after Pearl Harbor the Americans were down to a single Aircraft Carrier, and had to borrow HMS Victorious from the Royal Navy, which served as USS Robin for about six months in 1943 until the new American carriers started becoming available.

I also watched a Youtube video about the salvage operation at Pearl Harbor,which is the largest one in history apparently. Because it is a relatively shallow harbour the Americans managed to get most of the battleships that were sunk back up again with some of them seeing action again later on in the war.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by timshorts » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:40 pm

superdimitri wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:13 pm
Judging by the use of the term Yanks used here by many, I hope we don't have any American fans either...not to mention our owners.@

Let's let go of the derogatory terms, eh? It's not 1944 anymore.
Is it derogatory? I'm not sure what it's history is and thought (maybe mistakenly) that it referred to the northern team in their civil war and that they (basically) were the goodies.

There's not been much in English history since, though

1966 and reminders every bloody year therafter: World cup
1980's. Thatcher
Then brexit and its consequences.

I can't imagine that much else will seriously trouble the history books in a few hundred years time.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Herts Clarets » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:45 pm

The USS Arizona still lies beneath the water in Pearl Harbor, the final resting place of over 1100 US military personnel. I visited in 2003, a very moving memorial.
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by superdimitri » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:01 am

timshorts wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:40 pm
Is it derogatory? I'm not sure what it's history is and thought (maybe mistakenly) that it referred to the northern team in their civil war and that they (basically) were the goodies.

There's not been much in English history since, though

1966 and reminders every bloody year therafter: World cup
1980's. Thatcher
Then brexit and its consequences.

I can't imagine that much else will seriously trouble the history books in a few hundred years time.
First of all, you don't hear American's going round calling brits Tommy's or Limeys. They've moved on, it's not 1944 anymore.
Second, the term comes from the word 'Yankee's' that described northern 'Unionists' in some northern states of the USA. The term adopted by the confederates. If someone calls you a Yank, it's considered offensive because of its origins as a derogatory word for people who live in 'Yankee' states in the US.
The fact that us (as Brits) also used the derogatory term to describe all Americans is just damn stupid, since very few of Americans are not from 'Yankee' states anyway.

Thinking of something similar the other way round, it's a bit like Australians calling Brits Pommes.

Either way, anyone who studies history will know that the term is best not used nowadays. We owe a lot to those who sacrificed their lives in the war, including many men from the US who had no motive at all to do so other than a call by their country to war. We should show them respect, and not name them by a term they see themselves as offensive. Undoubtably, things would have been very different without them.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by BurnleyMickSouth » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:19 am

I see further back on my post i called the Americans....Yanks, that is what they are, i also referred to the Japanese as Japanese NOT nips, as the Americans call them, so here, so as not to upset the political correct brigade, i remember three jokes when i was 16 yrs and just left school, and they are as follows,whats the definition of an American Bra, One Yank and its Off :D the second one is nothing to do with America, whats the definition of a Glass Bra, smash n grab, :lol: and my last one is, definition of a grease proof bra,it does nothing for your breasts but it keeps what you have got fresh, :D, some people on here need to lighten up, a little bit sexist but funny, well i think so ! next on here people will be up in arms over what your thinking, for heavens sake, good job we cant read each others minds.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:31 am

Yank is derived from Yankleesh (or similar) a Native American pronunciation of English. So technically…

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Hipper » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:05 am

Summerseat Claret wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:34 pm
I'm with you on this Lancs - given the difference in industrial capabilities there is no way that the Japanese could have won or even held their own in a war with America in a conflict of any length. The view of Jonathan Parshall, who to my mind is the leading expert on the Battle of Midway, is that the battle was a huge tactical victory, but it wasn't really a turning point in the war as ultimate American victory was inevitable anyway.

At one stage a bit after Pearl Harbor the Americans were down to a single Aircraft Carrier, and had to borrow HMS Victorious from the Royal Navy, which served as USS Robin for about six months in 1943 until the new American carriers started becoming available.

I also watched a Youtube video about the salvage operation at Pearl Harbor,which is the largest one in history apparently. Because it is a relatively shallow harbour the Americans managed to get most of the battleships that were sunk back up again with some of them seeing action again later on in the war.
I saw that Youtube vid.

Two of the three battleships damaged at Taranto were back in service in seven months. Only one was effectively lost.

If we are talking about salvaging, as opposed to getting ships back into service, then the salvaging of the scuttled WW1 German warships at Scapa Flow might be competition. That's an interesting story too.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:33 pm

The planes that delivered the atomic bombs were B29’s, not B52’, which were used during the American Vietnam War.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by BurnleyMickSouth » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:16 pm

I stand corrected, it was indeed the B-29 THAT DROPPED THE ATOMIC BOMB, on Japan, my mistake i thought it was the B-52, i hold my hand up on that one.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:21 pm

BurnleyMickSouth wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:16 pm
I stand corrected, it was indeed the B-29 THAT DROPPED THE ATOMIC BOMB, on Japan, my mistake i thought it was the B-52, i hold my hand up on that one.
The Japanese were effectively defeated after the Marinas campaign

But they refused to surrender, and millions more died as a consequence

Nagasaki and Hiroshima were horrible, but the accounts of the Great fire bombing of Tokyo (in which twice as many Japanese died) are not an easy read

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:34 pm

Prior to ‘Vietnam’ was Laos (1953- 1975)running to the side of Vietnam. American insistence that their man be in charge had led to the breakdown of the three party rule created after the fall of French Indo China. Truman insisted on Pro American Government, his brother was a Communist and formed the Pathet Lao. The image of burning monks is Laos, they were Buddhist monks protesting about the American Supported Catholic leader who was determined to make Laos Catholic.

Internal communications within the Whitehouse demonstrate that even into JFK’s presidency the Joint Chiefs were advising preemptive Nuclear bombing of China. There reason, China had no bombs to fight back, then and they were bound to get involved against American domination of Thailand and Laos. Vietnam mainly became a target as the Ho-Chi min trail enabled China to supply through Vietnam. But, at Laos the main supporter of Communism was Russia, not China, China was still hoping the West would help them against their Soviet enemies and offer economic aid as China starved.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:45 pm

While we in the West proclaim the nuclear attacks as the catalyst for Japan’s surrender. The invasion of north Japan by Russian troops terrified them and is thought by many WWII academics as just as important as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, which were Far less powerful than even the short range anti tank missiles found later in Cuba, but not considered part of the missile crisis.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:55 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:45 pm
While we in the West proclaim the nuclear attacks as the catalyst for Japan’s surrender. The invasion of north Japan by Russian troops terrified them and is thought by many WWII academics as just as important as the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, which were Far less powerful than even the short range anti tank missiles found later in Cuba, but not considered part of the missile crisis.

Japan surrendered not because it had reached the stage due to economic blockade that it couldn't feed itself, not because it had almost completely run out of fuel, not because it had effectively lost everything already, not because the USN/USAAF/RN could effectively roam at will around the Home Islands, not because of the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria and not because of the fire bombing campaign (by Aug 1945, almost all the Japanese cities were completely burnt out) but because of a combination of that

But the catalyst was one bomb destroying Hiroshima, and the ramifications of the power of that one bomb, forced Hirohito (who did lots of shitty things during the war) to actually force the Japanese Army and people to agree to peace. They had to fight off an attempted coup to do it, but without his divine (remember he's a living god to the Japanese) intervention, the Japanese would have waited for the invasion of the home Islands

Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyushu, was expected to result in over 500,000 Allied casualties (could be 750,000, but again going from memory), and over a million Japanese ones.

Like Nazi Germany, the leaders of the defeated countries kept fighting long after they had lost, and millions died as a result

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:00 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:55 pm
Japan surrendered not because it had reached the stage due to economic blockade that it couldn't feed itself, not because it had almost completely run out of fuel, not because it had effectively lost everything already, not because the USN/USAAF/RN could effectively roam at will around the Home Islands, not because of the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria and not because of the fire bombing campaign (by Aug 1945, almost all the Japanese cities were completely burnt out) but because of a combination of that

But the catalyst was one bomb destroying Hiroshima, and the ramifications of the power of that one bomb, forced Hirohito (who did lots of shitty things during the war) to actually force the Japanese Army and people to agree to peace. They had to fight off an attempted coup to do it, but without his divine (remember he's a living god to the Japanese) intervention, the Japanese would have waited for the invasion of the home Islands

Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyushu, was expected to result in over 500,000 Allied casualties (could be 750,000, but again going from memory), and over a million Japanese ones.

Like Nazi Germany, the leaders of the defeated countries kept fighting long after they had lost, and millions died as a result
Thanks for that, only a passing interest in the Pacific during WWII - I am on much firmer ground in Laos :lol:

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by claret59 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:54 pm

I only saw the third ( and last ) feature and most of the first so it may have been mentioned and I missed it but if not I was surprised there was no mention of the Royal Navy cracking the Japanese code and so being aware that a Japanese invasion fleet was at sea although the precise target and date were not known. I think there is some controversy as to whether this info. was passed to the US government. The conspiracy theory ( or fact?)being that Churchill withheld the information so as to ensure the attack went ahead and with it America being brought into the war. Also it was not mentioned that Germany declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour and not the other way round.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:24 am

The development of the B29 cost more than the development of the atomic bomb. When it was put to use over Japan it was unsuitable for high level bombing due to the winds. Thus they had to use it for low level incendiary bombing.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by superdimitri » Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:04 am

If anyone is struck by the harrowing atom bombs were it's worth reading about the atrocities by the Japanese in their invasion of China and Singapore, many of which they still deny today.

Likewise, if you felt the medical experiments performed by Nazis were bad, read up about the Japanese experiments.

A cruel regime in it's own way, in many ways worse than the Nazi regime.

As for the term Yank, it's considered offensive by many Americans, which is reason alone not to use it imo.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Belgianclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:28 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:31 am
Yank is derived from Yankleesh (or similar) a Native American pronunciation of English. So technically…
Actually I was told in NY (at the Yankees stadium) that the term Yankees was historically derived from the Dutch names Jan and Kees.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:43 am

Regarding the Royal Navy cracking the Japanese code and knowing of the attack on Pearl Harbour. Its a myth. The Japanese were under strict radio silence, thus nothing would have been picked up. US and British coastal monitoring stations were therefore unable to track their fleet position through radio direction. Also, every American intelligence department was severely under resourced. As an example the head of Naval Intelligence had been replaced three times in 1941. There was also conflict between US Army & Navy intelligence. Army int had discovered that Japan had ordered all codes in key cities by 2 December 1941. The info was not sent to Hawaii.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Hipper » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:48 am

ebby wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:24 am
The development of the B29 cost more than the development of the atomic bomb. When it was put to use over Japan it was unsuitable for high level bombing due to the winds. Thus they had to use it for low level incendiary bombing.
Was this due to the then unknown (to the US) jet stream?

https://www.airspacemag.com/as-next/as- ... 180968355/

The B-29 was a pretty innovative aircraft.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:25 am

Yes, the Jetstream was the issue. The problem almost Custis Le May to loose his job. The Firebombing of Tokyo caused significant damage due to several factors. Unlike Germany which had nightfighters, searchlights and anti-aircraft batteries, Japan was unprepared. Civil -defence along with its fire department were totally unprepared and poorly equiped. This along with the majority of the building being timber caused immense destruction. Sixteen square miles were destroyed, and the death rate was higher that either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:28 am

In six months Le Mays Supefortresses with incendiary bombs destroyed most of Japans urban areas

By Sept 1945 there was barely any large urban areas left untouched

It was far more effective than the strategic bombing campaign in Europe was

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by DocFoster » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:37 am

If it wasn't for politics - certain senior Yanks desire to be seen to be the ones who ended the war - 'the limeys', would have been the ones to drop the bombs. The b-29, although innovative, didn't have a big enough bomb bay and had to undergo significant modifications.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AviationHistor ... casters_a/

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:29 am

Belgianclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:28 am
Actually I was told in NY (at the Yankees stadium) that the term Yankees was historically derived from the Dutch names Jan and Kees.
I suspect my sources on this are better than those employed by Yankee stadium tours. I have been studying British colonialism in the 13 Colonies, and especially North America and Canada during the French and Canadian War (that won Canada for Britain from France) and have studied the North American Indian tribes displaced during that earliest period, for around thirty years.

As a historian, my sources are other academic historians.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:45 am

… Belgium.

They have taken the fact that New York was originally New Amsterdam, and a Dutch colony. However the Dutch traded in Spices and so America was a minor Dutch trading port. The fur traders were French and English and the Third Anglo Dutch War saw possession change in 1673… smack bang in my specialist period.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:49 am

If America had not come into the war Britain would have gone. Even with the Colonies support: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and Canada. The US with Lend-Lease supported Britain. The food and material they supplied kept Britain afloat, through the Atlantic conveys, especially when Japan entered the conflict. Britain was also broke, after two years of war, so also needed US capital to continue.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:03 pm

ebby wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:49 am
If America had not come into the war Britain would have gone. Even with the Colonies support: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and Canada. The US with Lend-Lease supported Britain. The food and material they supplied kept Britain afloat, through the Atlantic conveys, especially when Japan entered the conflict. Britain was also broke, after two years of war, so also needed US capital to continue.
The loan repayments for the war led to the further downturn in Britain’s fortunes… this became especially notable in the seventies and the “winter of discontent”. Britain was broke due to full dividends having to be paid after America insisted on full instalment and repayment in reaction to Harold Wilson refusing to send British troops to Vietnam… the anti Vietnam demonstrations that blamed Wilson for not being tougher on America were so far off base it was, with benefit of hindsight almost comical… today, many believe it ultimately cost Wilson the election.

There are several reasonable sources prepared to risk their reputations by suggesting they have seen documents from Churchill’s secret service warning Roosevelt not only that the Japs were on the move, that there destination was believed to be Pearl Harbour two weeks before the attack. Many historians believe Roosevelt moved the newest naval ships from Pearl Harbour as a result. Though this remains an area of research yet to convince the panel that make a history, academic quality history and so it rarely gets mentioned in fully published work ( appearing in “papers” and the odd Journal that are not quiet so rigorous with their interrogation of sources).

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:14 pm

Hi Eleaclaret, agree re the debt that Britain had for many years.

Regarding Churchill and Roosevelt and the possibility of intelligence being passed between them, have not come across it before, but there are many revisionist historians around.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:17 pm

Sorry elwaclaret I got your name wrong. Are you still studying? I am into my second year of a history PhD.

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