Attack On Pearl Harbor......

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:28 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:03 pm
The loan repayments for the war led to the further downturn in Britain’s fortunes… this became especially notable in the seventies and the “winter of discontent”. Britain was broke due to full dividends having to be paid after America insisted on full instalment and repayment in reaction to Harold Wilson refusing to send British troops to Vietnam… the anti Vietnam demonstrations that blamed Wilson for not being tougher on America were so far off base it was, with benefit of hindsight almost comical… today, many believe it ultimately cost Wilson the election.

There are several reasonable sources prepared to risk their reputations by suggesting they have seen documents from Churchill’s secret service warning Roosevelt not only that the Japs were on the move, that there destination was believed to be Pearl Harbour two weeks before the attack. Many historians believe Roosevelt moved the newest naval ships from Pearl Harbour as a result. Though this remains an area of research yet to convince the panel that make a history, academic quality history and so it rarely gets mentioned in fully published work ( appearing in “papers” and the odd Journal that are not quiet so rigorous with their interrogation of sources).
Utter ******** I'm afraid

Its the sort of theory that sadly tv documentaries love to bandy about

British sources knew that the Japanese were coming for Malaya, and the US were about half way through a massive reinforcement drive for the Philippines (which included moving the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbour, because its a lot closer)

Essentially, the window for war from a Japanese point of view was short, because the US would have been substantially reinforced in the Philippines and every month the Japanese waited, the US got stronger

Don't get me wrong btw, there is no doubt that neither side was serious about peace, and both probably wanted war, but the idea that the US deliberately kept the defences at both Philippines and PH unprepared is (and has proved to be) complete BS

Both US bases had differently reasons for being caught completely by surprise

PH, because no one expected or knew what the Japanese navy was really capable of (massed carrier strikes were completely unknown, remember Taranto was from one RN carrier) and the whole island was caught with its pants down

The Philippines has 12 hours warning, and the leadership of McArthur and his complete failure to act, plus some extremely good luck on the side of the Japanese (Fog in Formosa meant that the raids on Clark Field and Manila were delayed, so they arrived just as the CAP was setting down to refuel, and the bombers had just returned from an aborted attack on Formosa) meant that they caught most of the aircraft on the ground, and with the destruction of the US bombers and fighters, the Philippines were impossible to hold

But is a nice theory for selling stuff isn't it?
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by JohnMcGreal » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:41 pm

Truman was a war criminal and should have been in the dock with the rest of the monsters who carried out appalling atrocities.

I suppose it's easier to get off with such things when you end up on the winning side, and you can write the history to justify your actions.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:49 pm

Evidence? Rash statements like that need backing up with primary source material.
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:51 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:41 pm
Truman was a war criminal and should have been in the dock with the rest of the monsters who carried out appalling atrocities.

I suppose it's easier to get off with such things when you end up on the winning side, and you can write the history to justify your actions.
Thats not fair either

In Trumans case, he saw the projected casualty figures for the invasion of Japan, the reluctance of Japan to surrender even though they had clearly lost, the public opinion after evidence of Japanese war crimes against US troops, general war wariness and he had a war winning weapon

He saved millions of lives

Sadly, its a lose/lose, but there are millions of people alive today who wouldn't be if it wasn't for Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and yes, there are millions who are not as well, but as I've already said, the Great Tokyo Fire Raid of March 1945 killed more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined)
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by JohnMcGreal » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:05 pm

Read the UN's definitions (taken from the 1949 Geneva Conventions) of what a war crime entails, and count up how many apply to the incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The consensus seems to be that he did commit war crimes (or would have done had the Geneva Conventions existed at the time), but it was justified. Because not committing them might have lead to more casualties.

Which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't a war criminal. He was, on multiple counts. But apparently, he had his reasons.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by JohnMcGreal » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:51 pm
Sadly, its a lose/lose, but there are millions of people alive today who wouldn't be if it wasn't for Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and yes, there are millions who are not as well, but as I've already said, the Great Tokyo Fire Raid of March 1945 killed more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined)
Absolutely, and I think that's another interesting debate. At what point does such horrific and extreme action become unjustified? Was the complete destruction of Dresden militarily necessary, for example? Or did that act stray into war crime territory?

I think it's an interesting topic and it isn't always black and white, but at the same time I don't think that the ends always justify the means.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:11 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:05 pm
Read the UN's definitions (taken from the 1949 Geneva Conventions) of what a war crime entails, and count up how many apply to the incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The consensus seems to be that he did commit war crimes (or would have done had the Geneva Conventions existed at the time), but it was justified. Because not committing them might have lead to more casualties.

Which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't a war criminal. He was, on multiple counts. But apparently, he had his reasons.
"He had his reasons"

I normally agree with a lot of what you say, and I'm not going to argue with the definition of a war criminal, because you are essentially correct, but the reasons for dropping the bomb have to be taken in the context of when that decision was taken

And you also have to bear in mind that millions of war criminals completely got away with it, in both Germany and Japan, simply because of the geo political situation post 1945

Again, not right, but at the time, was considered justified

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:13 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:28 pm
Utter ******** I'm afraid

Its the sort of theory that sadly tv documentaries love to bandy about

British sources knew that the Japanese were coming for Malaya, and the US were about half way through a massive reinforcement drive for the Philippines (which included moving the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbour, because its a lot closer)

Essentially, the window for war from a Japanese point of view was short, because the US would have been substantially reinforced in the Philippines and every month the Japanese waited, the US got stronger

Don't get me wrong btw, there is no doubt that neither side was serious about peace, and both probably wanted war, but the idea that the US deliberately kept the defences at both Philippines and PH unprepared is (and has proved to be) complete BS

Both US bases had differently reasons for being caught completely by surprise

PH, because no one expected or knew what the Japanese navy was really capable of (massed carrier strikes were completely unknown, remember Taranto was from one RN carrier) and the whole island was caught with its pants down

The Philippines has 12 hours warning, and the leadership of McArthur and his complete failure to act, plus some extremely good luck on the side of the Japanese (Fog in Formosa meant that the raids on Clark Field and Manila were delayed, so they arrived just as the CAP was setting down to refuel, and the bombers had just returned from an aborted attack on Formosa) meant that they caught most of the aircraft on the ground, and with the destruction of the US bombers and fighters, the Philippines were impossible to hold

But is a nice theory for selling stuff isn't it?
Agree (though you give far more detail than I could manage off the top of my head and Is why the sources came with a warning.
As I said passing interest in WWII Pacific Campaign no more, as you know as a historian, it is necessary to pick and chose which areas you ‘research’ from those you ‘read’. I bow to you every time on the Pacific War.
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:22 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:13 pm
Agree (though you give far more detail than I could manage off the top of my head and Is why the sources came with a warning.
As I said passing interest in WWII Pacific Campaign no more, as you know as a historian, it is necessary to pick and chose which areas you ‘research’ from those you ‘read’. I bow to you every time on the Pacific War.
Thing is, lots of stuff written 1945-1970s, based on what was known at the time, and relying a bit too much on stories from people who were there but remembered things rather differently to what actually happened

Some of the more modern works (especially recommend "Shattered Sword" for the Battle of Midway btw) use the evidence that we can now see from opened archives, modern archaeology etc

Quoting something like Manstiens "Lost Victories" now would be laughable (possibly one of best army commanders of all time btw, but also someone responsible for atrocities on the Eastern Front)

But this is defo my thing!
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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:23 pm

However the first paragraph is anything but ‘bullshit’, I studied the Kennedy administration (specialising in Laos) as a module of my BA. sources are archival and come from the Pentegon, Kennedy Library papers and Parliamentary records (available for reference by appointment at the People’s History Museum in Manchester) where all internal Labour Party archives are kept (along with the other more minor parties).

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:24 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:23 pm
However the first paragraph is anything but ‘bullshit’, I studied the Kennedy administration (specialising in Laos) as a module of my BA. sources are archival and come from the Pentegon, Kennedy Library papers and Parliamentary records (available for reference by appointment at the People’s History Museum in Manchester) where all internal Labour Party archives are kept (along with the other more minor parties).
My bullshit comment was all about the attack on Pearl Harbour

All I know about Laos is that it used to be run by the French and that it between Thailand and Vietnam!

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:25 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:24 pm
My bullshit comment was all about the attack on Pearl Harbour

All I know about Laos is that it used to be run by the French and that it between Thailand and Vietnam!
I realise that, but just clarifying for others who may be following our conversation.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:32 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:25 pm
I realise that, but just clarifying for others who may be following our conversation.
Really recommend Laos for a less fashionable insight into JFK and his relationship with his advisors. Had The perfect failure of the Bay of Pigs not happened, Laos would have been remembered rather than the later Vietnam. little Mac thought himself Kennedy’s father figure, but JFK saw him as an interfering old man, standing in the way of American interest. The UN eventually forced America’s hand over Laos… but it had been Truman’s baby, continued by Eisenhower and Kennedy had been elected on a being tougher on Communism ticket. If it is hard to side with America in Vietnam Laos was bordering on insanity.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:38 pm

ebby wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:17 pm
Sorry elwaclaret I got your name wrong. Are you still studying? I am into my second year of a history PhD.
No, sadly having to take a year out, due to late marking after COVID I missed my link for Masters. Was hoping to go to York to do Medieval history, but looking at Lancaster’s growing history department with some interest. What area are you studying Ebby? And even more importantly are you any relation Graham ‘Ebby’ Holden, who was a very close friend of mine?

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by ebby » Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:54 pm

Hi elwayclaret, pity about Covid stopping you doing your Masters.
My thesis in on Italian and German POWs who were in Australia during WW2. There were just over 20k of them, predominantly Italians. Similar to Britain; there was a labour shortage, thus they were put to work on the farms until repatriated. The second part of my research is how many of them returned as migrants.

Regarding the sad passing of your friend, no did not know him. I have lived in Australia for over 42 years. My nickname comes from St Teds.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:00 pm

ebby wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:54 pm
Hi elwayclaret, pity about Covid stopping you doing your Masters.
My thesis in on Italian and German POWs who were in Australia during WW2. There were just over 20k of them, predominantly Italians. Similar to Britain; there was a labour shortage, thus they were put to work on the farms until repatriated. The second part of my research is how many of them returned as migrants.

Regarding the sad passing of your friend, no did not know him. I have lived in Australia for over 42 years. My nickname comes from St Teds.
Interesting topic. There was a large Italian PoW just off the A59 around Billington, one of them, sadly now passed, was a patient of mine when I worked in ophthalmics; he had some great stories and a truly wonderful broad Lancashire/Italian accent. I’m sure a good proportion took up the chance to stay in Aus too. Really hope I can read that.

As for delay, it actually might work out well. I have looked around and the 2years at Lancaster sounds a lot more boots on the ground than the 1 year York course, but of course the kudos is with York. Taking the opportunity to learn Latin (which is not something I’ve ever studied) because while the course does allow for none Latin writers (and does introductory Latin)… I would much prefer to be at least at intermediate level before going into a lecture. So I’m keeping the cogs turning lol

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by claret59 » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:36 pm

Writing of war criminals why no mention of the Japanese Emperor ? He must have given the go-ahead for PH and prior to that were the awful atrocities in China, the Rape of Nanking being just one horrific example and the true figures of the execution of Chinses military personnel ( who had surrendered,) and the civilian population are unknown even to this day. A recent TV programme ( this weeks' Unreported World) highlighted the treatment of Korean women as sex slaves in WW2 by Japanese soldiers ( or 'comfort women' as the Japanese military referred to them.) Was the Emperor unaware of any of this?

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:42 pm

claret59 wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:36 pm
Writing of war criminals why no mention of the Japanese Emperor ? He must have given the go-ahead for PH and prior to that were the awful atrocities in China, the Rape of Nanking being just one horrific example and the true figures of the execution of Chinses military personnel ( who had surrendered,) and the civilian population are unknown even to this day. A recent TV programme ( this weeks' Unreported World) highlighted the treatment of Korean women as sex slaves in WW2 by Japanese soldiers ( or 'comfort women' as the Japanese military referred to them.) Was the Emperor unaware of any of this?
Almost certainly

But as I alluded to further up the thread, the decision was made (lots of input from McArthur, who you might have gathered was completely useless) to keep him as a head of state to help the transition post war

He deserves a bit of credit for actually ending the war, but he should have done it much, much, much earlier

The Japanese war crimes were a bit of a sham to be honest, commanders of armies who had defeated the Allies in 1942 being executed for actions taken on the spot by their subordinates (with little or no evidence that they ordered it), and I think less than 100 lost their lives

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Hipper » Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:36 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:38 pm
No, sadly having to take a year out, due to late marking after COVID I missed my link for Masters. Was hoping to go to York to do Medieval history, but looking at Lancaster’s growing history department with some interest. What area are you studying Ebby? And even more importantly are you any relation Graham ‘Ebby’ Holden, who was a very close friend of mine?

Just reading 'Making a Living in the Middle Ages - The People of Britain 850-1520' by Christopher Dyer. Interesting!

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:55 pm

claret59 wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:36 pm
Writing of war criminals why no mention of the Japanese Emperor ? He must have given the go-ahead for PH and prior to that were the awful atrocities in China, the Rape of Nanking being just one horrific example and the true figures of the execution of Chinses military personnel ( who had surrendered,) and the civilian population are unknown even to this day. A recent TV programme ( this weeks' Unreported World) highlighted the treatment of Korean women as sex slaves in WW2 by Japanese soldiers ( or 'comfort women' as the Japanese military referred to them.) Was the Emperor unaware of any of this?
I think the reason no one particularly concentrates on Japan atrocities is that they were so evident and widespread. I worked (many years ago) with a former Burma prisoner of war, he had to be removed from the shop floor whenever Honda, Toyota etc. Visited John Cotton’s Colne as he made no pretence that he would not slit Japanese throats without remorse, even in the nineteen eighties as an old man. Nobody from the boardroom down blamed him.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:12 pm

Hipper wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:36 am
Just reading 'Making a Living in the Middle Ages - The People of Britain 850-1520' by Christopher Dyer. Interesting!
A truly exciting time to be researching the Middle Ages, so much of what we thought we knew is being unravelled and post Roman Britain far far removed from the Britain we were taught… the dark ages turn out to be anything but. History generally is finally bursting through Victorian spin to reveal rather different truths. Chris Dyer is in the front line and his pedigree speaks for itself.

Robert Poole, my former lecturer and a top ten historian on Peterloo told me the current pre-Victorian research is being done by some of the finest minds ever turned to the subject and speaking to them is almost spellbinding there is so much being discovered, same goes for pre-Roman Britain: Barbarians… not one bit.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by Hipper » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:11 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:12 pm
A truly exciting time to be researching the Middle Ages, so much of what we thought we knew is being unravelled and post Roman Britain far far removed from the Britain we were taught… the dark ages turn out to be anything but. History generally is finally bursting through Victorian spin to reveal rather different truths. Chris Dyer is in the front line and his pedigree speaks for itself.

Robert Poole, my former lecturer and a top ten historian on Peterloo told me the current pre-Victorian research is being done by some of the finest minds ever turned to the subject and speaking to them is almost spellbinding there is so much being discovered, same goes for pre-Roman Britain: Barbarians… not one bit.
I'm certainly finding that the meaning of being a 'peasant', 'serf', even 'slave', is not what I thought.

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Re: Attack On Pearl Harbor......

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:04 pm

Hipper wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:11 am
I'm certainly finding that the meaning of being a 'peasant', 'serf', even 'slave', is not what I thought.
Quite. When people say ‘slave’ they do not think of Jamestown, the Local barons right to have first dibs at the new wife or that a 7year slavery stretch on a plantation did not come with a return ticket for those caught steeling… so in effect British white slavery was also a life sentence. When we are taught of ‘Britain’ it is not recognisable in most of the country, the mistreatment of the lower orders could be incredible.

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