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English managers
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:41 pm
by Wile E Coyote
Wonder why there is such a lack of top flight english managers in the Premier league.
What is it about foreign talent that is seen as preferable to the majority of our best clubs.
If our league is supposedly the best in the world, where do the continental coaches acquire their know how?
Currently the relegation slots are all occupied by English managers, although norwich is only due to them binning Farke the other week.
I assumed our coaching programmes were highly regarded everywhere, but the majority of the clubs clearly don't favour home grown talent enough.
Some of the appointments seem obvious, proven winners of major tournaments, but there does appear to be a lot of fairly average men employed in this division.
Re: English managers
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:09 pm
by minnieclaret
Possibly because foreign players/coaches/managers have, historically, had a greater love and respect for the game. The British are slowly coming out of the drinking culture that pervaded the game for far too long, straight from training down the pub. Far too many, not all, were just in it for the money. Currently we are 10 years away from the new culture in English football turning into a swathe of top coaches/managers
Re: English managers
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm
by ClaretTony
Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:41 pm
Wonder why there is such a lack of top flight english managers in the Premier league.
There was a point last season when of the Premier League managers were English
Dean Smith (Aston Villa)
Graham Potter (Brighton)
Sean Dyche (Burnley)
Frank Lampard (Chelsea)
Roy Hodgson (Crystal Palace)
Scott Parker (Fulham)
Steve Bruce (Newcastle)
Sheffield United (Chris Wilder)
West Brom (Sam Allardyce)
plus
Leicester (Brendan Rodgers) - Northern Ireland
West Ham (David Moyes) - Scotland
Rodgers & Moyes still there but just five English managers now - Potter & Dyche still plus Steven Gerrard (Aston Villa), Eddie Howe (Newcastle) and Smith (Norwich)
Re: English managers
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:30 pm
by timshorts
We still haven't sussed out that being a top player does not equate to being a top coach.
Hence if our top clubs want to hire an English coach, they would rather pick a Lampard with little experience than a guy who has been tearing it up with, say, Blackpool.
If we are talking about foreign coaches then they are usually graded on their prowess as a coach - at bodo/glint or dortmund etc, not what they did as a player.
Down to the media to some extent, I think. Solskaer was a bit of an exception to the rule, but I imagine that it was because he played for man u.
Anyone on here actually rate Zidane as a coach?
Re: English managers
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:33 pm
by Bosscat
timshorts wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:30 pm
We still haven't sussed out that being a top player does not equate to being a top coach.
Hence if our top clubs want to hire an English coach, they would rather pick a Lampard with little experience than a guy who has been tearing it up with, say, Blackpool.
If we are talking about foreign coaches then they are usually graded on their prowess as a coach - at bodo/glint or dortmund etc, not what they did as a player.
Down to the media to some extent, I think. Solskaer was a bit of an exception to the rule, but I imagine that it was because he played for man u.
Anyone on here actually rate Zidane as a coach?
If he carries on laundering money in Speed Dahl on Corrie he will be in trouble
Re: English managers
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:58 pm
by houseboy
Of course it has nothing to do with ‘fashion’ has it? In all walks of life the idea of style over content has a
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 am
by Wile E Coyote
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm
There was a point last season when of the Premier League managers were English
Dean Smith (Aston Villa)
Graham Potter (Brighton)
Sean Dyche (Burnley)
Frank Lampard (Chelsea)
Roy Hodgson (Crystal Palace)
Scott Parker (Fulham)
Steve Bruce (Newcastle)
Sheffield United (Chris Wilder)
West Brom (Sam Allardyce)
plus
so from that list, we now have 4. Quite a cull one would imagine.
Leicester (Brendan Rodgers) - Northern Ireland
West Ham (David Moyes) - Scotland
Rodgers & Moyes still there but just five English managers now - Potter & Dyche still plus Steven Gerrard (Aston Villa), Eddie Howe (Newcastle) and Smith (Norwich)
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:53 am
by Wile E Coyote
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm
There was a point last season when of the Premier League managers were English
Dean Smith (Aston Villa)
Graham Potter (Brighton)
Sean Dyche (Burnley)
Frank Lampard (Chelsea)
Roy Hodgson (Crystal Palace)
Scott Parker (Fulham)
Steve Bruce (Newcastle)
Sheffield United (Chris Wilder)
West Brom (Sam Allardyce)
plus
so from that list, we now have 4. Quite a cull one would imagine.
Leicester (Brendan Rodgers) - Northern Ireland
West Ham (David Moyes) - Scotland
Rodgers & Moyes still there but just five English managers now - Potter & Dyche still plus Steven Gerrard (Aston Villa), Eddie Howe (Newcastle) and Smith (Norwich)
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:52 pm
by AfloatinClaret
I've long argued that Journeyman players especially defenders make better coaches than 'gifted' ones. Those journeymen had to work/learn to achieve their success so can now pass that experience on while the gifted lads could just do it, but without necessarily knowing how they did it - Dyche/Allardyce over Rooney/Lampard every time.
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:05 pm
by Rowls
English football still suffers from (but is slowly recovering) from a malaise that spread in the 80s and 90s whereby ex-players were automatically deemed to have the qualifications to become managers.
Need a new manager? Appoint an recently retired ex-player of high standing was the formula.
We had Casper and Miller. Not completely dreadful, but neither were great managers. They were great players and that is where their greatness ended.
Until manager's are appointed on their ability to manager rather than their playing days then English manager's will be held back because the system will be getting clogged up. Ex-players of dubious managerial ability will block the progression path of promising young managers just as much as the imports of foreign managers will do.
This wrong-headed thinking has affected all levels of the English game.
For example, how often do Premier League teams appoint a manager that has done well in the Championship or below? It happens very rarely. But equally, how often do a lower league club pick a young manager doing well in the non league scene? Not often. Clubs are more likely to appoint from within.
The foreign managers have done better because they often are better. They're better because they have been able to rise to prominence via open pathways that were not hindered by bad thinking and bad appointments.
But bad thinking is not limited to the appointment of English managers. Just as some English managers have been appointed simply because of their playing ability, one or two foreign bosses have been appointed because they sound sophisticated and are the antithesis to the old Ron Manager / Mike Bassett stereotype.
Fortunately, Burnley haven't followed this path for a generation now and it has done wonders for us - our managerial appointments have (barring one notable exception) led us to where we are today. If other clubs around us had adopted similarly sensible approaches we wouldn't have been able to compete in the way we have.
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:50 pm
by KRBFC
timshorts wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:30 pm
We still haven't sussed out that being a top player does not equate to being a top coach.
Hence if our top clubs want to hire an English coach, they would rather pick a Lampard with little experience than a guy who has been tearing it up with, say, Blackpool.
If we are talking about foreign coaches then they are usually graded on their prowess as a coach - at bodo/glint or dortmund etc, not what they did as a player.
Down to the media to some extent, I think. Solskaer was a bit of an exception to the rule, but I imagine that it was because he played for man u.
Anyone on here actually rate Zidane as a coach?
I mean how can you not rate a manager who won 3 Champions League trophies in 4 years? go on, tell me Dyche is better
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 pm
by KRBFC
The English managers appear to be really old fashioned and have been pushed out of the game, at the top. There's a reason Aidy Boothroyd, Allardyce, Pulis, Megson, Curbishley never got top jobs and have been slowly but surely edged out of the game. Football fans in the PL want to be entertained while winning, dinosaur managers don't bring entertaining football regardless of budget.
If you give Allardyce a bigger budget, his teams don't change style. He doesn't evolve into Pep Guardiola.
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:04 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:50 pm
I mean how can you not rate a manager who won 3 Champions League trophies in 4 years? go on, tell me Dyche is better
There was a general feeling amongst a large chunk of the sports media that Zidane did a great job with the squad he had, but he wouldn't be able to do a rebuild in the same manner as someone like Fergie and to a lesser degree Pep.
That probably explains why he had zero interest in taking the Utd job.
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:06 pm
by Rowls
KRBFC wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:57 pm
The English managers appear to be really old fashioned and have been pushed out of the game, at the top. There's a reason Aidy Boothroyd, Allardyce, Pulis, Megson, Curbishley never got top jobs and have been slowly but surely edged out of the game. Football fans in the PL want to be entertained while winning, dinosaur managers don't bring entertaining football regardless of budget.
If you give Allardyce a bigger budget, his teams don't change style. He doesn't evolve into Pep Guardiola.
Bothroyd doesn't belong with that group of managers. He had a single brief period of success and has repeated failed to replicate it.
Allardyce was one of the most progressive and intelligent managers in the game who never got the credit he deserves. Dyche gets pigeon holed for the same reasons. Allardyce brought success wherever her went.
Megson was successful in most of his roles but more limited.
Curbishley worked magic at Charlton but went stale however he built them into a team that became established in the Premier League. Look at how Charlton fared without him, both before and after.
Pulis has, again, been largely successful where he has been.
The fact that you've grouped together a disparate bunch of managers with varying styles of football, varying levels of success and different records into a single group shows the way most people view managers. The fact that, for many who think as you do, Dyche would be placed in the same category has worked very much in our favour.
Re: English managers
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:26 pm
by Jakubclaret
If you believe in fairness & equality everybody should be treat the same across all nationalities based on merit for selection.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:57 am
by timshorts
I have to admit some major surprise in how well Wayne Rooney has been doing at Derby just recently.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:18 pm
by KRBFC
Rowls wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:06 pm
Bothroyd doesn't belong with that group of managers. He had a single brief period of success and has repeated failed to replicate it.
Allardyce was one of the most progressive and intelligent managers in the game who never got the credit he deserves. Dyche gets pigeon holed for the same reasons. Allardyce brought success wherever her went.
Megson was successful in most of his roles but more limited.
Curbishley worked magic at Charlton but went stale however he built them into a team that became established in the Premier League. Look at how Charlton fared without him, both before and after.
Pulis has, again, been largely successful where he has been.
The fact that you've grouped together a disparate bunch of managers with varying styles of football, varying levels of success and different records into a single group shows the way most people view managers. The fact that, for many who think as you do, Dyche would be placed in the same category has worked very much in our favour.
They're all dinosaurs and the standard of football in the top flight is better without them.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:22 pm
by Rileybobs
The Premier League is lauded as the best in the world, so it is no surprise that the top coaches and managers around the world work in England. It’s no different than asking why there are so (relatively) few English players playing in the Premier League.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:25 pm
by Rowls
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:18 pm
They're all dinosaurs and the standard of football in the top flight is better without them.
Allardyce was a fantastic manager who improved the fortunes of nearly every club he was at.
When you look what happened to the clubs once he departed you get to see just how much he was contributing.
Allardyce adopted new developments like sports science, statistical analysis, yoga and ballet very early on and he reaped the rewards on the pitch.
The fact that he was prepared to play directly, had a northern accent and sported a very dodgy 'tache should not and does not detract from his outstanding record as a manager.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:35 pm
by Devils_Advocate
Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:22 pm
The Premier League is lauded as the best in the world, so it is no surprise that the top coaches and managers around the world work in England. It’s no different than asking why there are so (relatively) few English players playing in the Premier League.
This, there is more money and prestige in the Premier league so owners pretty much have the pick of managers right across Europe baring a few big clubs so you are bound to get a good mix of nationalities.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:57 pm
by Rammy1968
Must agree with Rowls Big Sam was a class manager and attracted some very good footballers to Bolton and played some great football. At other clubs like Dyche has had to do here he has played to his players strengths and got results. When you are in charge at Man U, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea you can buy who you want it’s a different ball game all together. Personally I think Dyche would make Everton into a top six team if given a chance and time to implement his ways.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:13 pm
by KRBFC
Rowls wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:25 pm
Allardyce was a fantastic manager who improved the fortunes of nearly every club he was at.
When you look what happened to the clubs once he departed you get to see just how much he was contributing.
Allardyce adopted new developments like sports science, statistical analysis, yoga and ballet very early on and he reaped the rewards on the pitch.
The fact that he was prepared to play directly, had a northern accent and sported a very dodgy 'tache should not and does not detract from his outstanding record as a manager.
Exactly he's a dinosaur, produced some good results once upon a time with dull football and has been edged out of the game as time has gone on and the PL has improved in every aspect.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:23 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:18 pm
They're all dinosaurs and the standard of football in the top flight is better without them.
Are you saying the PL would be better off without Dyche?
It sounds like it
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:33 pm
by KRBFC
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:23 pm
Are you saying the PL would be better off without Dyche?
It sounds like it
Did you miss the list of English managers or something?
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:31 pm
by GodIsADeeJay81
KRBFC wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:33 pm
Did you miss the list of English managers or something?
Nope, but from the looks of it you missed Dyche's name being in the comment you responded to when you said they're all dinosaurs etc.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:55 pm
by AlargeClaret
When you’ve bought a club for 100’s of millions and expect to spend a billion or so ,you’re more likely to want some exotic Latino -esque sounding name than Dave or a Sean . Didn’t the Venkys look at Maradona ?
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:58 pm
by Spijed
OGS proved beyond doubt that any incompetent manager can get one of the big six clubs to finish in the top four. They finished second and got to the Europa League final.
It was simply because of the players he had available, not because of his management skills. He'd failed everywhere he went, yet still got the United job.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:44 pm
by KRBFC
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:31 pm
Nope, but from the looks of it you missed Dyche's name being in the comment you responded to when you said they're all dinosaurs etc.
I was talking about the list, please re-read the previous post with the list.
Re: English managers
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:57 pm
by IanMcL
It just seems that the prem aims at being a world league and therefore the clubs sign players and managers accordingly.
