If Tarks is refusing to sign a new deal (and possibly sold in Jan) is it time to start Collins moving forward? I think he's shown enough about him to be up for the fight.

If we want to survive the drop then we need to play our best players. And Tarkowski is our best player.

Yes, Tarky is very worldie

If he doesn't want to sign, why pit him in the window, let's play the side who will play next year in the championship?

Time to start building, as today was the worse I think ice seen in terms of 50k a week premier league footballers

We need Tarkowski to play - plenty to play for

If only there was something we could do, possibly through the alteration of the formation, that would mean we could play all three of our centre halves on the same football pitch.

Both in a 3 at the back but Dyche wont do that.

considering how many wins we've got in the last 50 games I'd try something different

................Pope.......................
..........Mee Collins Tarks..............
Roberts Westy Brownhill Cork Taylor
............McNeil Cornet.....................

or a combination of other players, but 4-4-2 hoofball is taking us to the championship

Both in a 3 at the back but Dyche wont do that.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:33 pm

considering how many wins we've got in the last 50 games I'd try something different

................Pope.......................
..........Mee Collins Tarks..............
Roberts Westy Brownhill Cork Taylor
............McNeil Cornet.....................

or a combination of other players, but 4-4-2 hoofball is taking us to the championship

If playing three centre halves then positionally it would have to be:

...Collins Tarkowski Mee...

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:33 pm

considering how many wins we've got in the last 50 games I'd try something different

................Pope.......................
..........Mee Collins Tarks..............
Roberts Westy Brownhill Cork Taylor
............McNeil Cornet.....................

or a combination of other players, but 4-4-2 hoofball is taking us to the championship

Bloody hell, not many goals in that side.

Play the 3 CBs,
Keep clean sheets and hope for a goal or two.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:33 pm

considering how many wins we've got in the last 50 games I'd try something different

................Pope.......................
..........Mee Collins Tarks..............
Roberts Westy Brownhill Cork Taylor
............McNeil Cornet.....................

or a combination of other players, but 4-4-2 hoofball is taking us to the championship

Pope
Collins Tarkowski Mee
Roberts Westwood Cork McNeil Taylor
Wood Rodriguez

That would be my line up for the West Ham, assuming Cornet is injured.

Spot on about the rudimentary 442 though. We have a whole calendar year's worth of evidence now that if we continue to serve that up, we will not pick up anywhere near enough points. Got to give something else a go now.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:39 pm

Pope
Collins Tarkowski Mee
Roberts Westwood Cork McNeil Taylor
Wood Rodriguez

That would be my line up for the West Ham, assuming Cornet is injured.

Spot on about the rudimentary 442 though. We have a whole calendar year's worth of evidence now that if we continue to serve that up, we will not pick up anywhere near enough points. Got to give something else a go now.

And at last I think we have the players who could do this

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:36 pm

Bloody hell, not many goals in that side.

same in the current side, that's the issue - the playing into corners isn't creating anything so we might as well try something different. As is, we are going down no question

taio wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:35 pm

If playing three centre halves then positionally it would have to be:

...Collins Tarkowski Mee...

yeah I was just throwing names in positions tbh

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:44 pm

same in the current side, that's the issue - the playing into corners isn't creating anything so we might as well try something different. As is, we are going down no question

Obviously if things don’t improve then we’re going down, but I don’t think we’re quite at the point where we may as well try anything new because ‘it can’t be worse’.

I’ve nothing against a change in formation per se, but the lineup you suggested would score even less goals, and win even less games than we do at present.

davetheclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:33 pm

Both in a 3 at the back but Dyche wont do that.

Mentioned it in another post. Its never likely to happen this season, as Dyche remains against change. The sin however being we have never tried it pre season, and thats a major failing in todays modern game

warksclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:58 pm

Mentioned it in another post. Its never likely to happen this season, as Dyche remains against change. The sin however being we have never tried it pre season, and thats a major failing in todays modern game

Maybe Dyche just doesn’t think we’ve got the personnel to effectively play in a 3-5-2 formation.

If results don't improve very quickly it will be time to try a different shape and formation.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe Dyche just doesn’t think we’ve got the personnel to effectively play in a 3-5-2 formation.

I'm pretty sure we have now.
Three good CBs, mobile LB and RB (Roberts and Taylor)
Surely worth a try given our poor win record over the past year?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:59 pm

Maybe Dyche just doesn’t think we’ve got the personnel to effectively play in a 3-5-2 formation.

Maybe he doesn't, but nor do we have the personnel to effectively play in a 4-4-2 formation, clearly.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:02 pm

I'm pretty sure we have now.
Three good CBs, mobile LB and RB (Roberts and Taylor)
Surely worth a try given our poor win record over the past year?

Maybe we do, we certainly have players who can play in those positions. But Dyche may not feel that a 3-5-2 will play to their strengths.

We need to also consider the amount of hours that these players put in on the training ground working on particular systems. It really isn’t as simple as telling them to go out and play in a totally different set up. Not to say we can’t get something different, just trying to add a bit of balance as to why Dyche may not favour switching to something so ‘alien’ to this squad.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:06 pm

Maybe he doesn't, but nor do we have the personnel to effectively play in a 4-4-2 formation, clearly.

Not quite true. This squad has shown they can effectively play in a 4-4-2. They haven’t done so this season, but even then we’ve been on a good run of form with just 1 defeat in 8 (I think), before today. So whilst the wins haven’t been coming for quite some time, the points have been ticking over and the performances in the main have been decent.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:06 pm

Maybe we do, we certainly have players who can play in those positions. But Dyche may not feel that a 3-5-2 will play to their strengths.

We need to also consider the amount of hours that these players put in on the training ground working on particular systems. It really isn’t as simple as telling them to go out and play in a totally different set up. Not to say we can’t get something different, just trying to add a bit of balance as to why Dyche may not favour switching to something so ‘alien’ to this squad.

I agree with that, with the one difference being that both Cornet and Roberts are comfortable as wing-backs... oh, and the centre midfield is currently not doing the business, and 2 up front are giving us precious little goal threat

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:08 pm

Not quite true. This squad has shown they can effectively play in a 4-4-2. They haven’t done so this season, but even then we’ve been on a good run of form with just 1 defeat in 8 (I think), before today. So whilst the wins haven’t been coming for quite some time, the points have been ticking over and the performances in the main have been decent.

We'll see, but for me there's nothing effective about our performances and results this year. We're really struggling.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:12 pm

I agree with that, with the one difference being that both Cornet and Roberts are comfortable as wing-backs... oh, and the centre midfield is currently not doing the business, and 2 up front are giving us precious little goal threat

The potential issues I can see with a 3-5-2 are the lack of mobility and ball playing ability of our centre backs, and who plays as the most advanced midfielder. McNeil could maybe play that role but I’m not convinced.

I also wouldn’t like to see Cornet in a wing back role as he currently carries our biggest goal scoring threat, and the defensive side of his game doesn’t seem too strong.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:22 pm

The potential issues I can see with a 3-5-2 are the lack of mobility and ball playing ability of our centre backs, and who plays as the most advanced midfielder. McNeil could maybe play that role but I’m not convinced.

I also wouldn’t like to see Cornet in a wing back role as he currently carries our biggest goal scoring threat, and the defensive side of his game doesn’t seem too strong.

I do appreciate your concerns, but what we're doing now isn't working so what 's to lose by trying?

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:22 pm

The potential issues I can see with a 3-5-2 are the lack of mobility and ball playing ability of our centre backs, and who plays as the most advanced midfielder. McNeil could maybe play that role but I’m not convinced.

I also wouldn’t like to see Cornet in a wing back role as he currently carries our biggest goal scoring threat, and the defensive side of his game doesn’t seem too strong.

I guess there's a good chance Cornet won't be fit for the next game so it would be McNeil, or Cork if we were to pack the midfield.

ksrclaret wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:20 pm

We'll see, but for me there's nothing effective about our performances and results this year. We're really struggling.

Sure, we’re definitely struggling, I’m not disputing that. Just pointing out that we’re not at the stage where we may as well try anything because it’s different - because for all we know as casual fans it may be a lot worse. There’s a lot of football still to play, and sometimes having belief in the things that you know can bring success is better than going back to the drawing board.

Just to reiterate though, I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be looking at making changes.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:23 pm

I do appreciate your concerns, but what we're doing now isn't working so what 's to lose by trying?

A win today would have taken us out of the bottom three. So the point I’m making is that whilst what we’re doing isn’t working as well as we needs it to, it’s still working to some degree. What we have to lose is picking up even less points than we currently are and leaving us with an impossible task to survive relegation.

taio wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:25 pm

I guess there's a good chance Cornet won't be fit for the next game so it would be McNeil, or Cork if we were to pack the midfield.

I’m not sure a midfield 3 of Cork, Brownhill and Westwood ahead of 3 centre backs is a good option. McNeil would seem like the obvious choice but Dyche has been reluctant to play him centrally.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:32 pm

I’m not sure a midfield 3 of Cork, Brownhill and Westwood ahead of 3 centre backs is a good option. McNeil would seem like the obvious choice but Dyche has been reluctant to play him centrally.

Totally understandable you thinking that about Westwood, Cork and Brownhill, if you think 352 is a bad idea in the first place. In my view, if things don't change quickly, we must try something different, and those three could solidify our central midfield area that has struggled too often this season. The same could be achieved through 433 too.

taio wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:39 pm

Totally understandable you thinking that about Westwood, Cork and Brownhill, if you think 352 is a bad idea in the first place. In my view, if things don't change quickly, we must try something different, and those three could solidify our central midfield area that has struggled too often this season. The same could be achieved through 433 too.

I don't think 3-5-2 is necessarily a bad idea. I'm just not sure whether such a radical deviation from what we know is a good idea at such a crucial stage of the season.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:44 pm

I don't think 3-5-2 is necessarily a bad idea. I'm just not sure whether such a radical deviation from what we know is a good idea at such a crucial stage of the season.

I don't think we are quite at that point yet.

taio wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:47 pm

I don't think we are quite at that point yet.

I'm not sure what point we are at right now.

Personally I think had we had Comet coming in rather than playing as a forward had to be the option today from the off. We really took the game to them and they wobbled even with our lack of threat. We need to be braver at hitting people on the ropes, at times we are almost anti-Howe in just making the most of our endeavour. (And I’m not a Howe fan and am truly gutted we gave Newcastle a win).

Slightly on a tangent:
Some are saying Dwight McNeil has become less effective, if the opposition plays a wing-back (3-5-2) they can man mark DM half way up the pitch.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:52 pm

Obviously if things don’t improve then we’re going down, but I don’t think we’re quite at the point where we may as well try anything new because ‘it can’t be worse’.

I’ve nothing against a change in formation per se, but the lineup you suggested would score even less goals, and win even less games than we do at present.

yeah, hence the reason I put "or a combination of other players" - it was more about the change in formation because the 4-4-2 isn't going to get us enough points if you take the last 50 games into account. We are struggling and it's not looking good

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:48 pm

I'm not sure what point we are at right now.

Still 24 league games left to play.