Sack Dyche now

[boatshed bill]

They are his achievements but that has no bearing on us finishing 7th for instance being classed as overachieving. It's disingenuous saying otherwise. If overachieving is not a thing you have to wonder why the word even exists.

When you look at the record book you may find a list of achievements.
There is no listing of over achievements, it's like an abstract concept, held only in the eyes of those who want to believe it

[Jamesy]

And when you assess that achievement against the expected achievement given resources etc available? In order to bring a context to that achievement, then what?

What on earth are you on about? You are sounding like a politician who has just been rumbled.

[Burnleyareback2]

Been trying to avoid this thread but a bottle of wine got the better of me.

If you don’t recognise what Sean Dyche has done for this club since picking it up from Howe, stopping the rot of goals conceded and transforming us into a team that has survived in the premier league and walked the championship then you really need to think about your perception of reality.

Championship survival is our natural level as a club in modern football, we are massively overachieving.

Whilst I still have some hope that we can turn this season around, there is absolutely nobody that I would trust more to give us a fight chance of a top 6 finish if we were to drop.

Get behind the lads.

[taio]

What on earth are you on about? You are sounding like a politician who has just been rumbled.

Was clear, made complete sense and a good definition of overachieving.

[Jamesy]

Was clear, made complete sense and a good definition of overachieving.

Fair enough. I would have preferred it in layman’s terms.

[boatshed bill]

Was clear, made complete sense and a good definition of overachieving.

Do you not mean "exceded my expectations"? Which is altogether both acceptable and completely different?

[Lancasterclaret]

I get the incredulity you place on what he said but ask yourself this. If we sacked Dyche and he was looking for work do you think he would get another Premier League job?
The answer is no.

The answer is that he's kept a team that shouldn't be at this level in the premier league and qualified it for Europe

Is it good at the moment?

No

Will we get relegated?

Probably

Would he get another job at a premier league club?

I reckon he would, because every fan of other clubs may absolutely hate us and him, call us a dirty team and the Brexit Barcelona, or a bunch of racists , or whatever, but for six years when the season ends we are not in the bottom three and stay up (or much better), and they all think, all of them, including the pundits and chairman, I wonder what he could do if he had some real money?

I'm all for having a good think about his position at the end of the season in the event of a relegation btw, because I think it might be time for us and him to part company if we go down, but we are not down yet, and we've been here before, and Sean Dyche has got us out of it, despite loads of us thinking he's lost the dressing room, or he's tactically inept, or whatever, and he pulls us out of the fire.

Some of us remember that, and clearly, some of you do not, and you post the same stuff after every bad performance

Hey you might be right (this time), but you've been very wrong before, and you might well be again

I reckon to keep us up, the best man for the job is Sean Dyche, and I hope you lot can deal with that reality

[alf_resco]

Been trying to avoid this thread but a bottle of wine got the better of me.

If you don’t recognise what Sean Dyche has done for this club

I don't think anyone is arguing against/questioning that.

What concerns most folk is the here and now.

Dyche & his team need to show they can progress.

There comes a time fof all managers to leave because whatever they are trying/ have tried isn't working anymore.

EVERY manager has a sell-by date. Fact.

[taio]

Do you not mean "exceded my expectations"? Which is altogether both acceptable and completely different?

No, I meant overachieving.

[boatshed bill]

No, I meant overachieving.

Hey look, we are not opposed to one another, so I would ask you very politely:
What did (or do) you set as an acceptable level of achievement?

[taio]

Hey look, we are not opposed to one another, so I would ask you very politely:
What did (or do) you set as an acceptable level of achievement?

Burnley staying in the PL for six years and qualifying for Europe for instance is overachieving. If you can't immediately see that there's no point discussing it. Good night.

[Lancasterclaret]

Burnley staying in the PL for six years and qualifying for Europe for instance is overachieving. If you can't immediately see that there's no point discussing it. Good night.

I mean, you put it like that, and how on earth can anyone remotely living in the real world argue with that?

[Spijed]

I don't think anyone is arguing against/questioning that.

What concerns most folk is the here and now.

Dyche & his team need to show they can progress.

There comes a time fof all managers to leave because whatever they are trying/ have tried isn't working anymore.

EVERY manager has a sell-by date. Fact.

Without endless amounts of money no manager can achieve anymore than what SD has. The next manager would have exactly the same issues.

[Vegas Claret]

IF they sack Dyche and IF Pace wants to do what he says he wants to do then I would expect a "big name" to help attract players and someone who's team style is 100 times more entertaining than Dyche's football. Dyche has absolutely been a miracle worker for us but the football has been extremely hard to watch over the last few years.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

IF they sack Dyche and IF Pace wants to do what he says he wants to do then I would expect a "big name" to help attract players and someone who's team style is 100 times more entertaining than Dyche's football. Dyche has absolutely been a miracle worker for us but the football has been extremely hard to watch over the last few years.

We don't need a "big name" manager though, because as Everton have shown it isn't a guarantee of anything.

An up and coming manager with a clear idea of what they can do with our current squad and the changes they'd want to implement would be a better option.

[boatshed bill]

Burnley staying in the PL for six years and qualifying for Europe for instance is overachieving. If you can't immediately see that there's no point discussing it. Good night.

So you can't answer the question, and choose to answer a different one... good night, sleep tight

[alf_resco]

Without endless amounts of money no manager can achieve anymore than what SD has. The next manager would have exactly the same issues.

You really are the master of the non-sequitur.

"No manager can achieve anymore than what SD has."

So forget the 4 yr contract, let's give him a 34 yr contract. Because no-one "can achieve anymore,"

[boatshed bill]

You really are the master of the non-sequitur.

"No manager can achieve anymore than what SD has."

So forget the 4 yr contract, let's give him a 34 yr contract. Because no-one "can achieve anymore,"

These ridiculous pro-Dyche statements actually do him (SD) no favours,

[Vegas Claret]

We don't need a "big name" manager though, because as Everton have shown it isn't a guarantee of anything.

An up and coming manager with a clear idea of what they can do with our current squad and the changes they'd want to implement would be a better option.

yeah I wasn't clear, I should have put a big name younger manager that has the publicity to along with it

[UpTheClaretsFCBK]

Be utterly ridiculous to sack a manager with two promotions in two Championship seasons with us, and two promotions in three Championship seasons in total in his career, he made the play offs in his other season from a near impossible position.

Even if we go down, he deserves at least half of next season before there's a decision to be made. If we're hovering around the edge of the play offs by then, I think we could then make a decision on his future.

People can make as many comments about 'playing style' and 'tactics' as they want, the fact is that we've gotten lucky in an era where some of the poorer sides in the Premier League were really poor.

The reintroduction of Leeds and Villa to the league when we've lost clubs like Stoke, West Brom, Fulham, Norwich etc was always going to complicate our survival chances and we've also recruited poorly during the last 3 seasons.

I think we've also seen that the 'British only' transfer policy seems to have been a trait of the past regime and tied Dyche's hands into signing people like Gibson.

Sacking Dyche would be cutting off our nose to spite our face, a really stupid and dangerous decision.

If we do end up in the Championship next season, I see no better candidate to help us bounce immediately back than Dyche.

[KRBFC]

If we do end up in the Championship next season, I see no better candidate to help us bounce immediately back than Dyche.

but we're back in the same position, boring football and an old squad...

[KRBFC]

Burnley staying in the PL for six years and qualifying for Europe for instance is overachieving. If you can't immediately see that there's no point discussing it. Good night.

we didn't qualify for Europe, we lost in the qualifying rounds, unless you also believe San Marino qualified for the World Cup.

[Vegas Claret]

we didn't qualify for Europe, we lost in the qualifying rounds, unless you also believe San Marino qualified for the World Cup.

we failed to make the group stages, we absolutely qualified for Europe

[Vegas Claret]

The reintroduction of Leeds and Villa to the league when we've lost clubs like Stoke, West Brom, Fulham, Norwich etc was always going to complicate our survival chances and we've also recruited poorly during the last 3 seasons.

This is a really good point, I honestly think going forward the best most teams can hope for is to be a yo-yo team. I'm not seeing many in the championship that will be able to compete at the top table.........probably only Fulham

[ClaretMov]

Without endless amounts of money no manager can achieve anymore than what SD has. The next manager would have exactly the same issues.

Rubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.

It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.

Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.

[Spijed]

Rubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.

It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.

Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.

So why has no other team with limited resources managed to stay in the PL for more than a season or two?

Why can't any of the promoted sides in recent seasons, such as Huddersfield for example last more than a couple of years if it's easy as you say?

Why have we managed six seasons to date when all these newly promoted clubs with similar budgets have better tactics and formations than us yet most seem to drop back through the trap door in the blink of an eye?

[ClaretMov]

That's us in the past, that's not us over the last 57 league games over the last season and a half, it's clearly not working now, the games moved on and team's don't need to do their homework on us to work out how to best us or stop us scoring, also the championship has moved on in the last six year's, if fan's think we will walk that division with Dyche and 442 then you're in for a shock

[Lancasterclaret]

Rubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.

It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.

Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.

Anyone know this lad in real life?

Someone should really check on him to make sure he's ok

[ClaretMov]

Anyone know this lad in real life?

Someone should really check on him to make sure he's ok

Okay plead his case, tell us all why Dyche stays, and please don't drag up crap about six years in the premier league because the last two have been painful

[ClaretMov]

Wow almost 20 minutes and no reply when you normally jump on anything I say within 30 seconds, says it all, thank you

[Newcastleclaret93]

Anyone know this lad in real life?

Someone should really check on him to make sure he's ok

I don’t agree with everything in his statement but he has made some good points.

Look at that forest starting eleven yesterday. It cost 4.8m pounds. We have just signed a striker for three times that amount. Money can hinder a lot of things but that’s why good recruitment is key. Not offering contracts to over 30’s

[TonbridgeClaret]

Wow almost 20 minutes and no reply when you normally jump on anything I say within 30 seconds, says it all, thank you

This

[RVclaret]

I don’t agree with everything in his statement but he has made some good points.

Look at that forest starting eleven yesterday. It cost 4.8m pounds. We have just signed a striker for three times that amount. Money can hinder a lot of things but that’s why good recruitment is key. Not offering contracts to over 30’s

Agree - good strategic recruitment, a decent youth system where the odd one makes it (see Brennan Johnson) and squad building is the absolute key to sustainability. I find it incredible how so many clubs get it so so wrong. It will be interesting to see if Brentford manage to stay up next season and don’t suffer the infamous second season syndrome.

[wilks_bfc]

If you stand still when everyone else is moving forwards, you go backwards.

Yes, this team (players & management) have served us well in the past, but least be honest, being the opposition and preparing to play us isn’t the most difficult thing to do.

They know the players we will play in what formation and the tactics we will use. They’ll even know the substitutions we will make and when we’ll make them.

Something does need to change, but as others have said I’m not sure changing the management, at this stage, will make any difference, but I think some major discussions & decisions need to be made over the summer

[Spijed]

That's us in the past, that's not us over the last 57 league games over the last season and a half, it's clearly not working now, the games moved on and team's don't need to do their homework on us to work out how to best us or stop us scoring, also the championship has moved on in the last six year's, if fan's think we will walk that division with Dyche and 442 then you're in for a shock

And therefore neither is any other formation working considering any club of a comparable size drops like a stone when they get promoted.

Remember the much hailed Sheff United, for example, with their centre halves charging forward?

That worked well.

[nyclaret]

Sean Dyche is bigger than the club now it appears.

[Quickenthetempo]

If you don’t recognise what Sean Dyche has done for this club since picking it up from Howe, stopping the rot of goals conceded and transforming us into a team that has survived in the premier league and walked the championship then you really need to think about your perception of reality.

It's pushing it to say walked the championship. The trophy was up at Boro, as they thought we would bottle the last day hurdle. Boro bottled it as it happens in the last few weeks.

It was a great achievement and Dyche's finest hour though.

[Dark Cloud]

Ultimately I've no idea who's fault it really is that we're where we are in the brown stuff, but I strongly suspect it's not SD's fault. He can only work with the players the board are prepared to shell out for and recruitment in the key area of central midfield hasn't happened in window after window (and I'm deliberately not counting Stephens). Garlick was culpable, but then again ALK have had 3 windows now to sort it out and haven't. Pointless sacking the manager and it's going to be pretty pointless addressing the glaring issues in midfield in the summer when we've been relegated and it's all far too late.

[Lancasterclaret]

Wow almost 20 minutes and no reply when you normally jump on anything I say within 30 seconds, says it all, thank you

Well, Mr weirdo, some of us don't live on here. I've been on a pre-work walk

Clears the mind, and stops me getting way too annoyed with stuff like this

I've stated my case (once or twice). You've said the same thing now for about nine pages and I think we get the message

Can I just check this is correct?

"Last two years have been dreadful, he's not up to the premier league , if he went someone would come in and improve us, just like that"

My problem with all that is that its inaccurate and wildly optimistic about our chances if we sack Dyche now*

(no problem with changing the manager either in the summer btw if the results continue like this)

With the squad we've got, and the way we play, I don't think we'd be able to do anything better than SD, and I've got enough faith that we can still get out of this

[Lancasterclaret]

This

Weird

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Okay plead his case, tell us all why Dyche stays, and please don't drag up crap about six years in the premier league because the last two have been painful

So you want someone to explain why Dyche should be allowed to stay but without using his current CV?
Hardly fair but hey ho.

[Elizabeth]

Rubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.

It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.

Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.

While I agree with the main thrust of your argument I think now is the time to give him our support, not call for his head.
Based on the first half of the season and Newcastle’s Jan window things are looking bleak on the PL survival front at the moment I agree. I think the word ‘stale’ is a good description.
I wouldn’t write Dyche off just yet though despite him having to find wins with arguably the poorest set of midfield players in the division. He must know he has to find the answer to us scoring more goals , and a team like Brentford having a very poor second half to the season could save us if he does.
I feel like I’m clutching at straws but what else is there to do.

[Jakubclaret]

I think some of us are now conditioned to think other managerial alternatives beyond dyche don’t exist & to a extent are fearful of change, he’s done a bloody good job previously but that was in the past & for everybody’s sake things need freshening up, new ideas & a new direction.

[Top Claret]

No, they don't, deejay.

The Orient game and any other reference to the past is to put what is happening in the present in context.

Dyche is doing the best with what he has. The PL has moved on by clubs spending millions upon millions of pounds most of that money underpinned by incredibly wealthy backing.

We haven't got that , we have a small, loyal fanbase and a bunch of PL hangers-on , quite a few on here by the look of it , so Dyche formulated a framework which has managed to confound the critics and defy the odds.

For variour reasons, lack of funds especially, Dyche has had to stick to his system and mend and make do. No other manager has come anywhere near to his success in battling the odds and, remarkably, he's doing it again to some extent this season.

We are not out of it by a long shot, our midfield is inferior there's no doubt about it but to talk about sacking Dyche or rejigging the whole system is madness.

We're not getting hammered by anybody so there is some hope that any tweaking might get us the win we need for lift off.

Owd Eddie just about sums it up.

We won't get anywhere panicking as we don't have the personal to change things, we need to stick to what we do and see if we can grind out the wins to keep us in this league

[Dy1geo]

Dyche has been good for us and I would have no issue him staying on if we had a team rebuild. The fact is the team has become stale when we played West Ham after the Everton debacle in 2018 our midfield was JBG, Cork, Westwood and McNeill and it was the same when we played them in our 0-0 almost 3 years later. Theres had changed significantly. Is this down to loyalty or a board not will too sanction any new decent transfers. My big issue is our lack of talent breaking through. One positive with dropping down a league is that we will have to trim the wage bill which will focus on the need to bring home grown talent through. If at the end of the season I just see many contract extensions if we drop my opinion of keeping Dyche will change.

[Jakubclaret]

Due to the finances & his contract, it’s largely irrelevant whether we wanted him to stay or go anyway.

[Woonderbah]

One positive with dropping down a league is that we will have to trim the wage bill which will focus on the need to bring home grown talent through.

My argument will always be that it's easier to stay in this league than win promotion to it.
We don't need to drop a division to inject some youth into the team.
Plenty of our competitors don't have an issue with bringing young talented players through but it's certainly a weakness for us.
Maybe there are positives to a season or two in the Championship but I'd rather see us evolve in the Premier League.
The January window was a huge missed opportunity to freshen things up.

[Shaggy]

https://footystats.org/managers/england/sean-dyche

I mean this season stats are horrendous. Not one other club would put up with that level of performance.

Then you add in the dull boring rigid football on offer, the lack of trying anything new and the woeful transfer acumen.

I honestly believe those wanting him to stay must have Stockholm syndrome.

[dandeclaret]

I think some of us are now conditioned to think other managerial alternatives beyond dyche don’t exist & to a extent are fearful of change, he’s done a bloody good job previously but that was in the past & for everybody’s sake things need freshening up, new ideas & a new direction.

Not fearful of change, but fearful of change for change sake...... which is what the vast majority of football clubs do, which is where Burnley have bucked the trend over the years of standing by managers. Most managerial changes don't affect the overall, long term, trajectory of the club. They bring inflated costs, unsettled personnel, and a cycle of change, that takes the easy decisions, rather than the critical decisions.

Why are Burnley in the "Brown Stuff" - somebody said above "If you stand still, you go backwards". What should Burnley do to keep moving? Is the market moving faster than the club can? Has the successful strategy of mixing about a 3rd of the squad with up and coming players, and 2/3 experienced good professionals run it's course, or is it a transitional phase? Do the club resources (funds, scouting network, youth development, club support staff, language capabilities etc) even allow for it? Do they need to be more risk adverse - if so, what does the best, worst and expected case look like?

It's not black and white. MY own personal view is

1) The club has, and whilst they are in the premier league, will continue to over achieve. If you drew up the league ladder on the available resources (not just money - as highlighted above) I supect Burnley would be somewhere between 32 and 48 based on natural resources, and probably between 16 and 26 with the stuff premier league money has allowed them to invest in.

2) The club is approaching a restart phase of their strategy. That restart requires 1 of 2 things to happen - 1) funds to reshape the squad totally - unavailable to Burnley in the main or 2) Contracts to end, and funds available to invest in wages - happening this season

3) The scouting network has grown - players are being found further afield, I hope the club is putting the relevant support networks in place

4) The manager is proven - proven in the premier league where results have and continue to (in my opinion) exceed resources available. One mans stubborn, or another mans focused belief in a strategy. Like genius and stupidity, there's often a fine line. Swapping the manager, in my opinion, is unlikely to change the trajectory of the club in a positive manner, but is likely to lead to a worse manager taking the job (because of resources available, as mentioned above) and thus accelerating performance closer to the bottom end of expected / natural performance.

5) Managers go stale - I agree with this strongly. But, they can be reinvigorated, with the creation of the right challenge, or removal of constraints that cause frustration. I'd back a manager to be reinvigorated with a new challenge at a club, rather than replace him without giving a chance.

6) It's an entertainment business - 15 - 20 years ago, I would have been 100% in your camp, punching about below the level that Burnley's resources should have them, playing average no lose football under the crucifier - I would have been there with you 100%. However, when results outstrip resources, when the ongoing growth of the club is dependant on continuing to "Beat the market" then I can see, granted looking from a distance, why to the wider world, what Burnley keep doing looks amazing. I am also fully aware, if I was investing time and money to watch it every week, I would likely have a different view - and be closer to what I was saying about Waddle, Stan for a time, Cotterill, Laws and Howe. Being a bit older, does mean I can understand that middle ground a bit more. These are some of the very best players that many of us will have ever seen play for Burnley. They may look less effective at the level they are playing at, but comparisons to others lower down the leagues for us, does them a dis-service. They may not be good enough to stay up. Relegation from this division, at some point, is an inevitability for Burnley / Norwich / Brentford / Stoke / West Brom / Birmingham / Bolton / Blackburn / Barnsley / Reading and so on. It's how the club stops the spiral that's important, and 2 bad decisions I reckon is all it takes to break years and years of good work.

Anyway, enough of me rattling on, time for some dinner.

[Jakubclaret]

Not fearful of change, but fearful of change for change sake...... which is what the vast majority of football clubs do, which is where Burnley have bucked the trend over the years of standing by managers. Most managerial changes don't affect the overall, long term, trajectory of the club. They bring inflated costs, unsettled personnel, and a cycle of change, that takes the easy decisions, rather than the critical decisions.

Why are Burnley in the "Brown Stuff" - somebody said above "If you stand still, you go backwards". What should Burnley do to keep moving? Is the market moving faster than the club can? Has the successful strategy of mixing about a 3rd of the squad with up and coming players, and 2/3 experienced good professionals run it's course, or is it a transitional phase? Do the club resources (funds, scouting network, youth development, club support staff, language capabilities etc) even allow for it? Do they need to be more risk adverse - if so, what does the best, worst and expected case look like?

It's not black and white. MY own personal view is

1) The club has, and whilst they are in the premier league, will continue to over achieve. If you drew up the league ladder on the available resources (not just money - as highlighted above) I supect Burnley would be somewhere between 32 and 48 based on natural resources, and probably between 16 and 26 with the stuff premier league money has allowed them to invest in.

2) The club is approaching a restart phase of their strategy. That restart requires 1 of 2 things to happen - 1) funds to reshape the squad totally - unavailable to Burnley in the main or 2) Contracts to end, and funds available to invest in wages - happening this season

3) The scouting network has grown - players are being found further afield, I hope the club is putting the relevant support networks in place

4) The manager is proven - proven in the premier league where results have and continue to (in my opinion) exceed resources available. One mans stubborn, or another mans focused belief in a strategy. Like genius and stupidity, there's often a fine line. Swapping the manager, in my opinion, is unlikely to change the trajectory of the club in a positive manner, but is likely to lead to a worse manager taking the job (because of resources available, as mentioned above) and thus accelerating performance closer to the bottom end of expected / natural performance.

5) Managers go stale - I agree with this strongly. But, they can be reinvigorated, with the creation of the right challenge, or removal of constraints that cause frustration. I'd back a manager to be reinvigorated with a new challenge at a club, rather than replace him without giving a chance.

6) It's an entertainment business - 15 - 20 years ago, I would have been 100% in your camp, punching about below the level that Burnley's resources should have them, playing average no lose football under the crucifier - I would have been there with you 100%. However, when results outstrip resources, when the ongoing growth of the club is dependant on continuing to "Beat the market" then I can see, granted looking from a distance, why to the wider world, what Burnley keep doing looks amazing. I am also fully aware, if I was investing time and money to watch it every week, I would likely have a different view - and be closer to what I was saying about Waddle, Stan for a time, Cotterill, Laws and Howe. Being a bit older, does mean I can understand that middle ground a bit more. These are some of the very best players that many of us will have ever seen play for Burnley. They may look less effective at the level they are playing at, but comparisons to others lower down the leagues for us, does them a dis-service. They may not be good enough to stay up. Relegation from this division, at some point, is an inevitability for Burnley / Norwich / Brentford / Stoke / West Brom / Birmingham / Bolton / Blackburn / Barnsley / Reading and so on. It's how the club stops the spiral that's important, and 2 bad decisions I reckon is all it takes to break years and years of good work.

Anyway, enough of me rattling on, time for some dinner.

“2 bad decisions I reckon is all it takes to break years & years of good work” & 1 courageous & wise decision to stop the rot & bring some fans some hope & belief back & more encouragement towards the future, everything’s got a shelf life & a expiry date.