You say "pragmatists"fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 amhttps://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk
One for the pragmatists.
I say "people who don't get that this problem will then occur again in 3/4/5 years time"
You say "pragmatists"fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 amhttps://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk
One for the pragmatists.
If we're still here in 3/4/5 years time.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:54 amYou say "pragmatists"
I say "people who don't get that this problem will then occur again in 3/4/5 years time"
Its not a certainty
CoolClaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:39 amReads more as appeasement than to be honest - just letting Putin have the Donbas to save face? I think he needs to understand that you can’t just annex territory at will.
Understand the nuclear concern but as other posters earlier commented when someone says ‘this is not a bluff’…. It’s probably a bluff.
Takes some real cajones to call it mind..
It is appeasement thoughfatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:40 pmYes... Totally see it as a form of appeasement CC, and that's certainly become a dirty word since Chamberlain's exploits 80-odd years ago.
Hitler nonetheless didn't have the WMDs to chuck around that are probably available to Putin, and hence it's a very different situation. I suspect that some of those bandying around all sorts of gung-ho comments have no more grasp of the realities than I have myself.
Hopefully our leaders are operating on something beyond guesswork and have more control over the situation than often appears to be the case.
Very enlightening, they will be cannon fodder.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:33 amhttps://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status ... 6524838915
Ex US NATO C in C on Russian training
I'm not proposing solutions LC. I'm making observations.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:43 pmIt is appeasement though
So you let the fear of his nukes allow him to do what he wants?
How do you think that is going to end up?
I'm not saying I have the answers mate, and you know that
Yes. I agree100%.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:07 pmI'm not saying I have the answers mate, and you know that
All I am saying is that we have to be very careful how we negotiate with someone who is essentially threatening nukes so he can annex 1/5 of a country he has invaded
But that goes without saying!fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pmYes. I agree100%.
And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.
And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.
At least you're honest.fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pmYes. I agree100%.
And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.
And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.
Subscription page. I can't read it.fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 amhttps://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk
One for the pragmatists.
I would have thought it is in China's interest to have a strong enough Russia in order to distract 'The West' and allow China to carry out its own ambitions. What outcome they want in Ukraine I've no idea but a weak Russia is not one of them. And remember, Russia is still an enormous source of energy and minerals and may become more so as global warming occurs - Siberia.NewClaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:14 amI think China hold the key to this war. If they publicly denounced Putin now and categorically ruled out support, it’d be over quickly. There’s a great opportunity for China to restore deteriorating ties with the West here, which ultimately is far more important to its future than good relations with Russia. But I also doubt they’d want to stab a BRICS ally in the back.
They are small but in the context of how Russia controls its people and the media, not insignificant I would say. It’s a sign there’s not unanimous support for Putin or the war and unless Putin is stupid he’ll know that’s only going to grow.
If I were a Russian male though, I wouldn’t bother with the protests and would just bail if I could.
I know what outcome I want from this war above all others - a benign Russia wishing to be part of the global community in a positive way. That means disposing of Putin and his cronies and having a western style democracy, but not like those of Hungary, Poland and possibly how Ukraine was going to be. That would hopefully also remove the Belarus president too.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:43 amThe real issue with that argument is that rewards aggression and it just means Russia goes back to rebuilding a stronger army and return to attack again in 5-10 years time.
When do you stop giving in when we all know the goal is to take back most of the EU.
The best solution is to kick the Russians out of Ukraine altogether. Then add them to NATO.
Become energy independent.
Build a very big wall along the border and leave Russia to its self to do its own thing.
It's possible to place Ukraine under the protectorate of NATO, whilst confirming no troops or weapons will be stationed there.Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:22 pmI know what outcome I want from this war above all others - a benign Russia wishing to be part of the global community in a positive way. That means disposing of Putin and his cronies and having a western style democracy, but not like those of Hungary, Poland and possibly how Ukraine was going to be. That would hopefully also remove the Belarus president too.
Unfortunately, in the real world I can't see this happening. We already tolerate and trade with gangsters so we can talk to Putin, perhaps through the offices of the UN. What does Putin want as a minimum. What he doesn't want is firstly, a large NATO country on Russia's border, and secondly, Russian humiliation. In that case, still dealing with Putin or his replacement, we will have to assure them that Ukraine does not join NATO and does not become obviously anti-Russian. That might pacify them. Some Russian access to Sevastopol would also be necessary. The question of Ukraine joining the EU is for the EU, Ukraine and Russia.
If you think that is not possible then I don't see what other outcome in this war there could be except the complete removal and/or destruction of the Russian armed forces in Ukraine. This will be so humiliating to Russia that there will be medium to long term repercussions, as there was with Germany after WW1.
One for the Macron types more like......he needs his feet held to the fire.fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 amhttps://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk
One for the pragmatists.
So Mr Timid,fatboy47 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pmYes. I agree100%.
And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.
And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.
It’s a very difficult and horrible situation. But it’s not impossible to stop him.KateR wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:35 pminteresting tactic of where there are protests, those arrested of a certain age are given their draft papers to sign in jail and released/told to be at the draft centres in a few days. Also appears many of these have no special skill or training related to Putin's speech, on the other side many are taking to flight to avoid, cars/flights etc. and of course airfare have risen substantially!
This is definitely being between a rock and a hard place, what a horrible position to be in, feels like it's almost impossible to stop him but at some point it will come to an end, but a lot of people/families will have lives ruined by then. It's going to be a long horrid winter for many, with various levels of hardships, all stemming from one place, one person but the world, the west, the UN all seem powerless to end it quickly.
If they want a ‘strong’ Russia I think that ship has sailed.Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:03 pmI would have thought it is in China's interest to have a strong enough Russia in order to distract 'The West' and allow China to carry out its own ambitions. What outcome they want in Ukraine I've no idea but a weak Russia is not one of them. And remember, Russia is still an enormous source of energy and minerals and may become more so as global warming occurs - Siberia.
China are between a rock and a hard place. They want Russian energy to make things to sell to the West and while China has now got the production they still have to import most of their tech from the West, their biggest market….NewClaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:21 pmIf they want a ‘strong’ Russia I think that ship has sailed.
It’s military has been decimated save its nuclear threat (if that even exists - they lie a lot!), and now they’re an international pariah state.
I think they’ve stayed on the sidelines pretty quietly to see which way the wind is blowing, but now it’s clearly against Russia I’d say their options are to:
Back Russia - then face all the other sanctions/isolation that comes with it.
Stay as they are - probably alienating Putin anyway, for not backing him.
Back the West - building/restoring relations with a FAR bigger market place and probably washing over their own human rights atrocities somewhat for being seen to do the right thing on this occasion.
I think they might just chose the latter. There’s far more to gain in my opinion. And a weak Russia means weak commodity prices for them to take advantage of.
Absolutely agree. Bullies only respond to force.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pmSo Mr Timid,
When do you finally grow a pair. Metaphorically.
What’s your red line??
Poland?
Germany?
France?
History tells us, he ain’t stopping. RT is telling us Russia is not stopping
He has to be stopped and defeated in Ukraine. We need to send more and more arms and now.
Here’s the thing though - they don’t really have to alienate Russia to placate the West. If they came out publicly and denounced the war, asked Putin to stop and clearly stated they would not support him militarily or financially, save any existing relationships/contracts, Russia might be mad but wouldn’t stop selling them energy.elwaclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:25 pmChina are between a rock and a hard place. They want Russian energy to make things to sell to the West and while China has now got the production they still have to import most of their tech from the West, their biggest market….
If this war has not got our leaders to understand that energy self sufficiency is not our number 1 priority, they simple don’t have a brain.AlargeClaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:38 pmVlad has now surely given up on Kiev /Kharkiv and will look to advance to seal up the Donbas and put it under Russian sovereignty. Then attempt “ crimea style “ to rubber stamp it and then “ nobly “ order ceasefire . Russia’s vast oil/ gas etc will talk turkey and I really can’t see Europe saying “ niet” to long term energy . However I’d imagine the USA will have other ideas and ultimately ensure Russia is pushed back to where it belongs .
True self sufficiency is only really possible with Nationalisation. It is not for nothing Maggie is accused by many of selling the family silver. With privatisation goes the public voice, most of our infrastructure remains in the hands of foreign companies/powers; the practical reality isn’t going to change, because it would require undermining the memory of Maggie to do so.Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:50 pmIf this war has not got our leaders to understand that energy self sufficiency is not our number 1 priority, they simple don’t have a brain.
Classic! No different to Putin really. Happy to send thousands of young lads to their deaths but wouldn't risk his own skin. Always the way. Not hard to see why there's a reluctance to fight for him. I know I'd be on my way to Georgia asap if I was Russian!elwaclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:19 pmPhillips OBrien: There is a special place in hell for those who cheer on others to go and fight and die, and then run away when given the chance to join those they so patriotically cheered on.
Ukraine Battle Map: Russian who is Pro-War celebrated the Partial Mobilization on Twitter
Less than 2 hours later, he receives a Convocation for Mobilization. He then immediately switches to be Anti-War and flees to Georgia, so he wouldn’t need to fight the war he supported for the last 7 months
https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/sta ... KIXkx1UuiA
To be fair, if every 1 in two houses had solar, we would be almost self sufficient already. The answers are out there, we are just not brave enough to embrace it.elwaclaret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:04 pmTrue self sufficiency is only really possible with Nationalisation. It is not for nothing Maggie is accused by many of selling the family silver. With privatisation goes the public voice, most of our infrastructure remains in the hands of foreign companies/powers; the practical reality isn’t going to change, because it would require undermining the memory of Maggie to do so.
Keep the politics out of this please
If 1 in two two houses had solar we be almost self sufficient already.welsbyswife wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:07 pmBut anyone dare try to put a solar farm in the Tory shires.......
You're out of your mind.Top Claret wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:38 pmNett zero before energy security. High taxation, public spending, vanity projects, state control, the list is endless.
It could almost be a Blackadder sketch.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:27 amVoting underway in the occupied territories
I mean, full credit to the Russians here to make this look as dodgy as possible
Nothing says legitimacy other than a big official stamp eh?
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/15 ... 0598715392
Quote from similar (can't remember the original, but its from the Hunt for Red October by Tom Clancy)CoolClaret wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:12 amPretty much anything & everything that comes out of Russia is propaganda and it really is comical.
This quote from Russian novelist (author of the Gulag Archipelago) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn springs to mind -
“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”
That quote sums so much up perfectly here. Surely the Russians know full well that nobody outside Russian believes a word of the constant garbage coming out of their mouths and yet they cannot help but keep spouting it. Even this joke referendum stuff is clearly something they know full well nobody in their right mind will believe is fair or in any way "real", but they're going to do it anyway. Because they simply can't help themselves.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:12 amPretty much anything & everything that comes out of Russia is propaganda and it really is comical.
This quote from Russian novelist (author of the Gulag Archipelago) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn springs to mind -
“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”
I think the problem is that if they could train, and equip these 300,000 (which early estimates suggest might be on the low side) with modern weapons then they would make a differenceDark Cloud wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:09 amThat quote sums so much up perfectly here. Surely the Russians know full well that nobody outside Russian believes a word of the constant garbage coming out of their mouths and yet they cannot help but keep spouting it. Even this joke referendum stuff is clearly something they know full well nobody in their right mind will believe is fair or in any way "real", but they're going to do it anyway. Because they simply can't help themselves.
Another observation which someone alluded to above in passing is that sending 300,000 extra troops to the front is actually another 300,000 witnesses to exactly what's really happening in Ukraine and how badly Russia is failing and that just makes it so much harder for the Putin crowd to keep hoodwinking their general populace (hopefully!)
Yes, I definitely agree. Rarely has the term "cannon fodder" been so apt since The Somme, July 1st, 1916.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:21 amI think the problem is that if they could train, and equip these 300,000 (which early estimates suggest might be on the low side) with modern weapons then they would make a difference
But they need troops at the front line now, and the likelhood is that these guys will get absolutely basic training and be sent to front line units to try to hold the line
It takes time, money and equipment to train a good soldier, and all the indications are that Russia has none of that
Well, no (with respect)Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:30 amYes, I definitely agree. Rarely has the term "cannon fodder" been so apt since The Somme, July 1st, 1916.
I think these conscripts have had their 1 year national service (that is meant to be absolutely amateur btw) and I doubt they’ll be given any extra training.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:21 amI think the problem is that if they could train, and equip these 300,000 (which early estimates suggest might be on the low side) with modern weapons then they would make a difference
But they need troops at the front line now, and the likelhood is that these guys will get absolutely basic training and be sent to front line units to try to hold the line
It takes time, money and equipment to train a good soldier, and all the indications are that Russia has none of that