Russia Invades

[elwaclaret]

There is helluva lot of speculation there, for which I can see no evidence whatsoever.

I made no claim otherwise. The German position is a matter of fact. The rest will unfold as it will.

[elwaclaret]

REUTERS: Russian parliament to consider summoning defence minister

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1570 ... n5pWSydrHg

[Vino blanco]

I made no claim otherwise. The German position is a matter of fact. The rest will unfold as it will.

I’m afraid that doesn’t make any sense to me. You should try to post with more clarity.

[elwaclaret]

NEW VOICE OF UKRAINE: Invading Russian forces have moved reserves from the Russian military’s new Third Army Corps, as well as the remnants of units withdrawn from the abandoned Kharkiv section of front, to Donetsk and Zaporizhzhya oblasts.

https://twitter.com/newvoiceukraine/sta ... n5pWSydrHg

[elwaclaret]

KYIV INDEPENDENT: Governor reports fire at a checkpoint in Russia’s Belgorod region bordering Ukraine.

Belgorod Oblast Governor Vyacheslav Gladkov claims that a fire broke out following Ukrainian attacks on the territory. He said there were no casualties.

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/sta ... n5pWSydrHg

[elwaclaret]

NEXTA: The German government will allocate €12 million to help 8,500 Ukrainian Holocaust survivors

This was announced at an event in Berlin, dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the Reparation Agreement between Germany and Israel. Germany has already paid more than €90 billion.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/157 ... n5pWSydrHg

[Lancasterclaret]

Looks like China are offering Putin a way out; he has admitted to China’s ‘concerns’ about the Ukraine war.
A nice economic package from China and hey presto; Putin will start talks and Germany will push for a cessation of arms supplies. Depending on the outcome of that chink in the alliance Putin claims his victory, or gets painted as the victim and uses it to save his position. Either way its a bandage on a broken leg. Putin can justify it to himself and plot his next move.

BBC: Vladimir Putin reveals China 'concern' over Ukraine

https://twitter.com/bbcworld/status/157 ... n5pWSydrHg

Lot of speculation there

Daily Mail esq reading of the German position I feel

[elwaclaret]

Phillips OBrien: What about Russia’s super duper hypersonic weapons. Surely they must have been as great as advertised.

“.@DepSecDef says Russia used hypersonic weapons almost to no effect in Ukraine. She says there is a tendency to go to an arms race mentality when the US sees the use of hypersonics. "That is not how we look at this challenge set." She's confident US investing in the right areas.”

https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/sta ... n5pWSydrHg

[elwaclaret]

Lot of speculation there

Daily Mail esq reading of the German position I feel

Daily Mail how dare you?

No mainly going off interviews I’ve been hearing with one of the German coalition parties, granted not necessarily a major strain but they are vocal… Newsnight the other night was one of them, as I recall.

[Lancasterclaret]

Daily Mail how dare you?

No mainly going off interviews I’ve been hearing with one of the German coalition parties, granted not necessarily a major strain but they are vocal… Newnight the other night was one of them, as I recall.

They are a coalition, but they have no interest in letting Russia win anything now

Not even the most optimistic reading of the situation sees Russia as a reliable energy partner, so if they are not going to be a reliable energy partner, then why back them?

The Greens in particular are very anti-Putin (a chance to wean Germany of fossil fuels a lot quicker than they otherwise would is not something they are going to turn down)

I know the German defence minister has been saying stuff in the media, and that they are resisting giving Leopard tanks and refurbished Marder IFVs, but they did this with the SP Guns and still sent them later

[elwaclaret]

NEW VOICE OF UKRAINE: A photographer from Kharkiv has captured over 60 missile launches from the territory of Russia.

https://twitter.com/newvoiceukraine/sta ... n5pWSydrHg

[elwaclaret]

They are a coalition, but they have no interest in letting Russia win anything now

Not even the most optimistic reading of the situation sees Russia as a reliable energy partner, so if they are not going to be a reliable energy partner, then why back them?

The Greens in particular are very anti-Putin (a chance to wean Germany of fossil fuels a lot quicker than they otherwise would is not something they are going to turn down)

I know the German defence minister has been saying stuff in the media, and that they are resisting giving Leopard tanks and refurbished Marder IFVs, but they did this with the SP Guns and still sent them later

Not arguing, against you particularly just chewing the cud until the news came in, really… some more interesting stuff has appeared since.

[elwaclaret]

Ina Sovsun (Ukrainian Minister) : More than 440 corpses were found in mass grave in the recently liberated Izyum in Kharkiv region. And that's just in one place.

This is a genocide of Ukrainians. This is worse than the #BuchaMassacre. This is the #KharkivMassacre.

https://twitter.com/innasovsun/status/1 ... n5pWSydrHg

[Vino blanco]

Daily Mail how dare you?

No mainly going off interviews I’ve been hearing with one of the German coalition parties, granted not necessarily a major strain but they are vocal… Newsnight the other night was one of them, as I recall.

Regarding the socalled German position on the Ukraine, I would refer you to two parts of speeches made in the last two weeks by the German Foreign Minister and the German Minister of Defence:
German Foreign Minister, Christine Lambrecht:- It is clear that we will support 5he Ukraine for as long as it takes. I would very much like to be able to give significantly more to 5he Ukraine: if the Bundeswehr had not been so cut back in recent years that would have been possible, but this is now the consequence of irresponsible savings.

The German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, during her recent visit to Kiev:-
I travelled to Kiev today to show that you can continue to rely on us. That we will continue to stand by the Ukraine as long as it takes with the delivery of weapons an with humanitarian and financial support.
These are the words of two high ranking German government ministers.

[elwaclaret]

Regarding the socalled German position on the Ukraine, I would refer you to two parts of speeches made in the last two weeks by the German Foreign Minister and the German Minister of Defence:
German Foreign Minister, Christine Lambrecht:- It is clear that we will support 5he Ukraine for as long as it takes. I would very much like to be able to give significantly more to 5he Ukraine: if the Bundeswehr had not been so cut back in recent years that would have been possible, but this is now the consequence of irresponsible savings.

The German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, during her recent visit to Kiev:-
I travelled to Kiev today to show that you can continue to rely on us. That we will continue to stand by the Ukraine as long as it takes with the delivery of weapons an with humanitarian and financial support.
These are the words of two high ranking German government ministers.

Absolutely no problem with you pointing that out. I am going off scant research and mainly from a long interview on Newsnight, so my comment was perhaps ill advised.

[Vino blanco]

Absolutely no problem with you pointing that out. I am going off scant research and mainly from a long interview on Newsnight, so my comment was perhaps ill advised.

No probs, there is so much information coming out it is impossible to keep up.

[Lancasterclaret]

Absolutely no problem with you pointing that out. I am going off scant research and mainly from a long interview on Newsnight, so my comment was perhaps ill advised.

No bother here either, but I think the last six months have killed any idea that its worth giving Putin a "win"

Everyone in the West wants the war to end as quickly as possible, but I think that is now 100% agreed that is up to Ukraine to decide what it counts as a starting negotiating point

I don't think the West want to give Ukraine everything that they are asking for though, but they will keep arming Ukraine for as long as it takes

[welsbyswife]

Great to see the last three posts. All posters recognising that their views might not be bang on but based on opinion and acknowledging that other views might also be valid. Good reasoned debate without getting into entrenched positions. Wish the rest of the board could operate in the same manner.

[Vegas Claret]

Great to see the last three posts. All posters recognising that their views might not be bang on but based on opinion and acknowledging that other views might also be valid. Good reasoned debate without getting into entrenched positions. Wish the rest of the board could operate in the same manner.

it's the best thread on here !

[Hipper]

It's a very good thread but hasn't been without its troubles in the early days.

The best thread recently is the BFC 1960's Squad Photo - it's actually about the club we love.

[Lancasterclaret]

One of the reasons this thread is so informative and so polite is that everyone who contributes (which wasn't the case at the start btw) is genuinely interested in the conflict and the political fall out around it

It easy to be polite to people who share your interests but don't share your views

[CoolClaret]

Massive thanks to all posters that are keeping this thread up to date with latest information & general oversight.

It still staggers me that this is going on in mainland Europe - I feel like a lot of the general populace seemed to have just ‘forgotten’ about this war and probably never truly understood the actual scale of it…

The heart & courage of the Ukrainian people is breathtaking - to the layman at the start of the war they had ‘no chance’ , I’ve been truly in awe of their strength, guile & determination to stand their ground and overcome that horrific, genocidal army.

Hoping for a bad Autumn/Winter for the Russians and for their supply lines to take a big hit.

It’s come at a cost to us all but here’s hoping that when Ukraine win we will see a much better world because of it.

Slava Ukraini!

[Lancasterclaret]

Massive thanks to all posters that are keeping this thread up to date with latest information & general oversight.

It still staggers me that this is going on in mainland Europe - I feel like a lot of the general populace seemed to have just ‘forgotten’ about this war and probably never truly understood the actual scale of it…

The heart & courage of the Ukrainian people is breathtaking - to the layman at the start of the war they had ‘no chance’ , I’ve been truly in awe of their strength, guile & determination to stand their ground and overcome that horrific, genocidal army.

Hoping for a bad Autumn/Winter for the Russians and for their supply lines to take a big hit.

It’s come at a cost to us all but here’s hoping that when Ukraine win we will see a much better world because of it.

Slava Ukraini!

The front is more than 2000 km long

Its crazy that this is happening in mainland Europe again, and it is solely because one man and one nation do not want to accept that the days of Empire are over

[Dark Cloud]

Regarding the socalled German position on the Ukraine, I would refer you to two parts of speeches made in the last two weeks by the German Foreign Minister and the German Minister of Defence:
German Foreign Minister, Christine Lambrecht:- It is clear that we will support 5he Ukraine for as long as it takes. I would very much like to be able to give significantly more to 5he Ukraine: if the Bundeswehr had not been so cut back in recent years that would have been possible, but this is now the consequence of irresponsible savings.

The German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, during her recent visit to Kiev:-
I travelled to Kiev today to show that you can continue to rely on us. That we will continue to stand by the Ukraine as long as it takes with the delivery of weapons an with humanitarian and financial support.
These are the words of two high ranking German government ministers.

It's great to hear this from the Germans, but it seems to me they really need to parcel up those Leopard tanks and get them in the post!

[bfcjg]

More desperate Russian measures, no surprise their moral and ability is so low.
BBC News - Russia's Wagner boss: It's prisoners fighting in Ukraine, or your children
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62922152

[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/felix_light/status/ ... 4459772929

Indian PM Modi (who is a populist pillock to put it mildly) tells Putin to his face "that this is not the time for war"

Everyday now you are seeing Putin publicly humiliated by nations who he would expect not to - President of one of the central Asian republics yesterday (making him wait for him) and now Modi today

Xi support was less than heartfelt as well, as he can see Russia trying to force the West into recession will of course affect their economies as well

[claretonthecoast1882]

https://twitter.com/felix_light/status/ ... 4459772929

Indian PM Modi (who is a populist pillock to put it mildly) tells Putin to his face "that this is not the time for war"

Everyday now you are seeing Putin publicly humiliated by nations who he would expect not to - President of one of the central Asian republics yesterday (making him wait for him) and now Modi today

Xi support was less than heartfelt as well, as he can see Russia trying to force the West into recession will of course affect their economies as well

The way out seems the same at the moment as day 1, someone close to him ends him

[Lowbankclaret]

Looking like Kupyansk has been liberated, even the part over the river. Gives the Ukrainians a great base to regroup and attack from.

https://twitter.com/blue_sauron/status/ ... O6QSQ8xeWg

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status ... hrEjg&s=19

Putin talking about the war.
He's either not a full shilling or he's not getting all the information

[Lowbankclaret]

Unconfirmed reports of finding Russian soldiers who were possibly injured but them executed by their own so as not to slow their escape. Again a very graphic photo is attached. It’s must be very scary to be Russian soldier right now.

https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/ ... ilonQZXSWQ

[Lowbankclaret]

Here we have a flip side, an injured Russian soldier found by Ukrainian troops advancing. I have read several Ukrainians saying the translation is true that he tells him medics are on the way and they will look after him.

https://twitter.com/kirstenfeldges/stat ... ilonQZXSWQ

[bfcjg]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russia-may-no ... 58280.html
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-strik ... 00054.html
Couple of interesting articles,a
Second one highlighting a change in Ukraine strategy.

[Goalposts]

A good summary and useful site for those following the conflict.

https://kyivindependent.com/national/wi ... -its-favor

[NewClaret]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russia-may-no ... 58280.html
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-strik ... 00054.html
Couple of interesting articles,a
Second one highlighting a change in Ukraine strategy.

Second link there is really interesting.

I definitely think the strategy of focussing commanders/collaborators is a good move. The former to break the invading forces morale/resolve to continue and the latter so they think twice before getting involved with the Russian administration.

Good to see HIMARS in operation again. It’d felt like they’d been lost/run out of ammo.

[Lowbankclaret]

Germany nationalises some Russian company assets in Germany. Not sure that’s going to go down well in Russia.

https://twitter.com/tweet4anna/status/1 ... zAujgtPk6g

https://youtu.be/gejGYjwgPBY

[AlargeClaret]

Here we have a flip side, an injured Russian soldier found by Ukrainian troops advancing. I have read several Ukrainians saying the translation is true that he tells him medics are on the way and they will look after him.

https://twitter.com/kirstenfeldges/stat ... ilonQZXSWQ

Do you seriously think the Ukrainians aren’t just as clinical as the Russians when it comes to dispatching badly injured enemy troops? While I don’t doubt the clip , if anything the UKR have far more right to feel aggrieved in this war than the Russians,though good to see a smidgeon of the Geneva convention in action regardless.

[Lowbankclaret]

Do you seriously think the Ukrainians aren’t just as clinical as the Russians when it comes to dispatching badly injured enemy troops? While I don’t doubt the clip , if anything the UKR have far more right to feel aggrieved in this war than the Russians,though good to see a smidgeon of the Geneva convention in action regardless.

There are lots of videos of captured troops being treated with humanity by the Ukrainians. But that is the first video of an injured Russian being told he will be looked after.
Stories on Twitter today of a tank crew that surrendered so they could have a sandwich. Which I cannot find now, typically.

[Vegas Claret]

https://twitter.com/Euan_MacDonald/stat ... Z_tptDkIMA

[welsbyswife]

Let's hope it's what it looks like! Not sure I'd be hanging round filming that on my mobile! Nutter.

[Lowbankclaret]

The main reliable sources I see on Twitter are saying it’s Russian propaganda showing that troops are actually trying to fight.

[Lowbankclaret]

https://twitter.com/warmonitor3/status/ ... nYpOMb-4Lw

[Colburn_Claret]

The main reliable sources I see on Twitter are saying it’s Russian propaganda showing that troops are actually trying to fight.

I'd have thought they didn't have the ammunition to spare.

[Lancasterclaret]

First point to make is that this is a war, and its almost a civil war, and they are the ones in which incidences of war crimes really do happen a lot

Do I think both sides are mistreating/killing prisoners?

Yes

Do I think both armies are doing it as part of a deliberate policy?

No

Do I think that the Ukrainians are far more interested than the Russians in stopping this?

Yes

I think the latest Russian recruitment videos of them essentially arming criminals and asking them to go to the front line is just asking for the amount fo war crimes to rocket, and I don't see the benefit to the Russian state

If it helps, the mass graves in Izyum are probably a combination of combat dead, civilians caught in the cross fire and genuine war crimes

But they are just my personal opinions, and they may well be wrong

I think the Russians have limited control over the groups such as Wagner and the Chechens, and they both are terrible reputations

[Lowbankclaret]

Lancaster,
I think the Russian army are killing civilians as a matter of policy.

[Lowbankclaret]

https://twitter.com/stratcomcentre/stat ... nYpOMb-4Lw

[JarrowClaret]

Lancaster,
I think the Russian army are killing civilians as a matter of policy.

Not sure that is totally correct Lowbank, I am certain that they don’t have a policy of deliberately targeting civilians. There isn’t however a clear policy of them trying to avoid hitting civilians. Look it is war things happen and civilians get hit it is unavoidable sometimes both sides will be doing it we just only hear about what the Ukrainians want us to hear about in that sense.

The pictures from Izyum are disgusting but we don’t have any idea if these bodies have been tampered with in any way since they were exhumed or if they were buried like that. I am 100% certain though that when we get to the end of this and we read the stories in the press etc the Ukrainians will have done very similar things to the Russians when it comes prisoners and collaborates.

[LeadBelly]

https://twitter.com/Euan_MacDonald/stat ... Z_tptDkIMA

There's definitely a 2-way exchange of fire going on. Ive seen Russian reports that their troops are undertaking a "counter-terrorist operation" v militants near the Railway Station.
No reason to suppose this is some sort of propaganda as I cant see how it serves Russia to admit that there are "militants" in the city centre there.
Who the "militants" are is another matter. Could be local Ukrainian resistance or (the way things have been going) could be various units of the Russian forces fighting amongst themselves (wouldn't be the first time in recent weeks).
Can only serve to spread uncertainty in Russian ranks.

[Lowbankclaret]

Not sure that is totally correct Lowbank, I am certain that they don’t have a policy of deliberately targeting civilians. There isn’t however a clear policy of them trying to avoid hitting civilians. Look it is war things happen and civilians get hit it is unavoidable sometimes both sides will be doing it we just only hear about what the Ukrainians want us to hear about in that sense.

The pictures from Izyum are disgusting but we don’t have any idea if these bodies have been tampered with in any way since they were exhumed or if they were buried like that. I am 100% certain though that when we get to the end of this and we read the stories in the press etc the Ukrainians will have done very similar things to the Russians when it comes prisoners and collaborates.

Let’s just say there are a lot of Ukrainian women and children who have suffered at the hands of the Russians. No Russian women and kids have been harmed as far as I have read.

[Lancasterclaret]

Let’s just say there are a lot of Ukrainian women and children who have suffered at the hands of the Russians. No Russian women and kids have been harmed as far as I have read.

Because the fighting is exclusively in Ukraine

Lets not kid ourselves here, in a war when a country massively increases the amount of troops under arms, stuff happens that shouldn't

What might be a huge mitigated factor (not one that was relevant in WWII for example) is the amount of Ukrainian women in front line units (about 20% I think)

But no army is blameless when it comes to war crimes in a conflict sadly

[Hipper]

Let’s just say there are a lot of Ukrainian women and children who have suffered at the hands of the Russians. No Russian women and kids have been harmed as far as I have read.

These stories always occur in war - WW1 Germans bayoneting children is an obvious example. Whether it has occurred or not it is always useful propaganda. It's being used to manipulate us.