Russia Invades

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elwaclaret
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:21 am

KEIV Independent: WSJ: China’s leader Xi deepening economic ties with Putin’s Russia despite public distance.

China's President Xi Jinping has instructed his government to deepen economic ties with Russia despite his months-long public distance from the Kremlin.

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/sta ... 79vFMmtWbQ

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:24 am

Rob LEE: A captured BMP-3 in Ukrainian service.

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1603 ... 79vFMmtWbQ

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:28 am

OSINT Technical: It appears that all automated flight tracking accounts utilizing open source data from ADSBexchange have been banned from Twitter, including RUOligarchJets.

https://twitter.com/osinttechnical/stat ... 79vFMmtWbQ

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:55 am


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Re: Russia Invades

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:59 am

NewClaret wrote:
Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:53 pm
Amazingly skilful landing. Plane useless in the short term, you’d imagine.
Quite incredible landing , though the comment on Twitter “ why didn’t he just land on the safer soft field “ is almost as incredible ..

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:35 pm

REUTERS: The hundreds of Russian drones hovering over the Ukrainian battlefield owe their existence to an elastic, sanction-evading supply chain that often runs through a shabby office above a Hong Kong marketplace, and sometimes through a home in suburban Florida

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1603 ... 11R7fkAc1w

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:33 pm

https://twitter.com/LukeDCoffey/status/ ... d2kFw&s=19

This has been a good read abou the future of Russia, a possible dissolution of the state etc

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Leisure » Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:14 pm

Andy Murray Wins Award for Ukraine humanitarian work.

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/andy-m ... tory.shtml

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by NewClaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:31 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:59 am
Quite incredible landing , though the comment on Twitter “ why didn’t he just land on the safer soft field “ is almost as incredible ..
Often the content on twitter makes you realise what incredibly intelligent group of contributors we have on UTC.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:29 pm

Leisure wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:14 pm
Andy Murray Wins Award for Ukraine humanitarian work.

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/andy-m ... tory.shtml
Not a fan of Muzza per se ,but what a absolutely fantastic gesture this is, that’s a lot of money ,good on him
.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by LeadBelly » Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:00 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:29 pm
Not a fan of Muzza per se ,but what a absolutely fantastic gesture this is, that’s a lot of money ,good on him
.
Agreed (though didnt realize he was "Muzza"). I ve always very much respected him as a sportsman/competitor but not always the causes he espouses but this is an excellent move from him.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:18 pm

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status ... 5782820870

News report with the emergency services of Ukraine in the front line town of Terensk

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:03 am


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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:46 pm

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1603732296716124167

Japan to double its military spending to counter threat of China

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:52 pm


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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:47 pm

NASTYA VERBA: Kyiv was under attack tonight. They can’t stop killing our children even on the important religion holiday. Mtfks 🤬

Hope Ukraine army will able to send them “best wishes” back.

https://twitter.com/verba_nastya/status ... ReiovfEi_w

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:14 pm

No idea what this is but it shows the genius of inspiration and innovation

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/sta ... 4582370305

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Longsider » Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:27 pm

Leisure wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:14 pm
Andy Murray Wins Award for Ukraine humanitarian work.

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/andy-m ... tory.shtml
This has made me change my opinion of the guy. Well done Andy Murray
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:48 am

https://twitter.com/malachybrowne/statu ... 9083485184

Pretty comprehensive investigation into Russian war crimes in Bucha and the units and men involved

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:25 pm

Few milestones today on the claimed numbers of Russians loses.
70580A2C-1395-4918-A585-C97286391951.png
70580A2C-1395-4918-A585-C97286391951.png (762.74 KiB) Viewed 2548 times

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:09 am

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-ru ... 51270.html
He is slowly cracking up, he starts a war, now he is trying to portray himself as wanting peace, it's only because he is losing and wants to regroup IMHO.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:08 am

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:09 am
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-ru ... 51270.html
He is slowly cracking up, he starts a war, now he is trying to portray himself as wanting peace, it's only because he is losing and wants to regroup IMHO.
He's always been open to negotiations on his terms

I suspect he's now realistic enough to know that if he gets international recognition for his occupation of the Crimea, then he'll probably settle for that

Course, that wouldn't count (to him) as a humiliating defeat and he could spin it as a win

It less than ideal

If Putin puts forward some concrete peace proposals, then it would be a good start, as at least it would give everyone an idea of what would be worth negotiating about

Its worth mentioning as well that Russia and Ukraine are still doing regular prisoner exchanges, but it tends to be injured/wounded soldiers in the main so they are talking at least
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:25 am

https://wavellroom.com/2022/12/23/new-r ... ign=buffer

Good article on Russian tank reserves (or lack of them)
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:39 am

Lancaster,
Not sure I posted a link at the time but watched a good utube video on Russian tanks.

What I learnt was the T80 tanks had/have a turbine engine. It’s very high on regular maintenance and tends to be a bit brittle.
It also uses as much fuel on tick over as it does when driving and tank crews were unaware causing fuel shortages trying to keep warm by keeping the engine on. It’s use in Ukraine has therefore decreased massively and Russia is turning back to the T72 variants with Diesel engines.

The T90 has loads of Thales equipment in its design that Russia cannot get hold of anymore, it’s being used fairly rarely I understand.

I see why they would be refurbishing T72’s and making new ones.

The upgraded protection in the reticle will have little effective change to the outcome against NLAW or Javelin.

Russia has lost over half its tanks and it looses more tanks in a month than it can make in a year.

6-12 months on from now Russia simply will,not have the machinery to carry on. In my humble opinion.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by lakedistrictclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:08 am

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:09 am
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/putin-says-ru ... 51270.html
He is slowly cracking up, he starts a war, now he is trying to portray himself as wanting peace, it's only because he is losing and wants to regroup IMHO.
Is Putin now admitting that he is at war?

He's always called it a " special operation".

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:22 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:39 am
Lancaster,
Not sure I posted a link at the time but watched a good utube video on Russian tanks.

What I learnt was the T80 tanks had/have a turbine engine. It’s very high on regular maintenance and tends to be a bit brittle.
It also uses as much fuel on tick over as it does when driving and tank crews were unaware causing fuel shortages trying to keep warm by keeping the engine on. It’s use in Ukraine has therefore decreased massively and Russia is turning back to the T72 variants with Diesel engines.

The T90 has loads of Thales equipment in its design that Russia cannot get hold of anymore, it’s being used fairly rarely I understand.

I see why they would be refurbishing T72’s and making new ones.

The upgraded protection in the reticle will have little effective change to the outcome against NLAW or Javelin.

Russia has lost over half its tanks and it looses more tanks in a month than it can make in a year.

6-12 months on from now Russia simply will,not have the machinery to carry on. In my humble opinion.
You may well be right, but I suspect plenty of nations are willing to sell them equipment at hugely inflated prices

Ukraine has its own issues as well, with its T-62 production facility (the Ukrainian version is a much more modern variant but still not top notch) essentially destroyed in Kharkiv, and there are some questions just how much equipment and ammunition they use and whether they can get replacements

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:24 am

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:01 am
FWIW I think that Putin and Zelensky are a pair of narcissistic psychopaths.
One thing I do find confusing is how so many world leaders and celebrities have been able to visit Zelensky in Kiev or he has found the time to fly to the US (dressed in his combat gear of course). What was all that about when Sean Penn handed Zelensky his Oscar? Is Zelensky acting?
He's only left Ukraine once, to visit the US this week

And he's sworn never to wear anything else but his green fatigues till the war is over

I think its always worth restating that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, and has been fighting them ever since

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:00 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:01 am
FWIW I think that Putin and Zelensky are a pair of narcissistic psychopaths.
One thing I do find confusing is how so many world leaders and celebrities have been able to visit Zelensky in Kiev or he has found the time to fly to the US (dressed in his combat gear of course). What was all that about when Sean Penn handed Zelensky his Oscar? Is Zelensky acting?
One man ordered the invasion of a country, resulting in 300 000 deaths to military and civilians,untold misery,infrastructure destruction and triggering a recession in the Western world, one of them is defending his country, likening them is quite possibly the most unfortunate contribution to this thread to date.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:13 pm

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:00 pm
One man ordered the invasion of a country, resulting in 300 000 deaths to military and civilians,untold misery,infrastructure destruction and triggering a recession in the Western world, one of them is defending his country, likening them is quite possibly the most unfortunate contribution to this thread to date.
He's invaded four countries and essentially bombed and gassed civilians in Syria to keep Assad in power

There is no comparison between Zelensky (democratically elected in an actual democratic election) and Putin (essentially Tsar of Russia)

Thats not saying Ukraine is perfect, of course it isn't, but its expressed desire to be part of the European, democratic bloc rather than be a Soviet successor state in the thrall of Moscow (Belarus) deserves our full and unwavering support

We will need a strong, democratic Europe now and in the future
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:04 pm

https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/stat ... 4095518720

More improvisation by the Ukrainians

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:49 pm


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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Anonymous Claret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:15 pm

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:00 pm
One man ordered the invasion of a country, resulting in 300 000 deaths to military and civilians,untold misery,infrastructure destruction and triggering a recession in the Western world, one of them is defending his country, likening them is quite possibly the most unfortunate contribution to this thread to date.
I believe it is a little more complex than you have described. It can be argued that the majority of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to be governed by Russia. NO IT CAN’T.

I struggle to take Zelensky seriously as it feels like Ricky Gervais being PM of the UK. you’d prefer a KGB commander trained in East Germany… ok.

Let me be clear that I am in no way defending Putin . REALLY? He is a very dangerous individual who seems to have little respect for human life and the sooner he is no longer in power the better AND HOW IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN BY APPEASING HIM? . But let's not portray Zelensky as some kind of super hero HE IS STANDING UP TO A THUG, RUNNING A SUPERPOWER: PRETTY HEROIC FOR A HEAD OF STATE WHOSE MAIN LIFE EXPERIENCE IS BEING A COMEDIAN . He openly denied bombing Poland which could have had major consequences throughout Europe and the World. Even though he is Jewish WOULD UKRAINIAN WEAPONS BE LANDING IN POLAND IF RUSSIA WASN”T SENDING MISSILES INTO UKRAINE?

I am not disputing that Putin is probably guilty of all the above allegations. ME EITHER

If you only source your information from Western based media sources such as the BBC, Reueters THE INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL NEWS AGENCY SO or CNN WHO HAS QUOTED CNN? etc.

When you only BELIEVE ANTI-WEST RETORIC YOU ONLY GET 1 side of the story that is not news it is propaganda.

Moderator

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:36 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:15 pm
I believe it is a little more complex than you have described. It can be argued that the majority of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to be governed by Russia.

I struggle to take Zelensky seriously as it feels like Ricky Gervais being PM of the UK.

Let me be clear that I am in no way defending Putin. He is a very dangerous individual who seems to have little respect for human life and the sooner he is no longer in power the better. But let's not portray Zelensky as some kind of super hero. He openly denied bombing Poland which could have had major consequences throughout Europe and the World. Even though he is Jewish let's not forget about his links to the far right Ukrainian neo Nazi groups such as the Azov Battalion. Let's also not forget that Ukraine is allegedly one of the biggest money laundering nations in the world.

I am not disputing that Putin is probably guilty of all the above allegations also with the exception of bombing Poland.

If you only source your information from Western based media sources such as the BBC, Reueters or CNN etc, you will be provided with 1 narrative and you will never receive a balanced account. When you only receive 1 side of the story that is not news it is propaganda.
This is where I ask you for your sources for what you believe

And I don't want to be pedantic about this, but it is important

The missile that landed in Poland was a Ukrainian S-300 SAM missile, which was fired at incoming Russian missiles

I'm sure you understand that "bombing Poland" is more than a little inaccurate when viewed in that context

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Hipper » Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:20 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:15 pm
I believe it is a little more complex than you have described. It can be argued that the majority of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to be governed by Russia.

I struggle to take Zelensky seriously as it feels like Ricky Gervais being PM of the UK.

Let me be clear that I am in no way defending Putin. He is a very dangerous individual who seems to have little respect for human life and the sooner he is no longer in power the better. But let's not portray Zelensky as some kind of super hero. He openly denied bombing Poland which could have had major consequences throughout Europe and the World. Even though he is Jewish let's not forget about his links to the far right Ukrainian neo Nazi groups such as the Azov Battalion. Let's also not forget that Ukraine is allegedly one of the biggest money laundering nations in the world.

I am not disputing that Putin is probably guilty of all the above allegations also with the exception of bombing Poland.

If you only source your information from Western based media sources such as the BBC, Reuters or CNN etc, you will be provided with 1 narrative and you will never receive a balanced account. When you only receive 1 side of the story that is not news it is propaganda.
I think you are losing focus on the major issue here - Russian aggression. Whatever media you use surely you accept this? And that this Russian aggression needs to be stopped in such away that it isn't repeated. That can only mean complete victory for Ukraine with all its territory restored, including Crimea, plus a strong enough Ukraine to make it unattractive to Russia to attempt another invasion.

Zelensky deserves his praise. He is of course not perfect but considering his inexperience in these matters he seems to have done little wrong. A weaker person would have deserted and Ukraine would have collapsed. He did not and here Ukraine is, still in with a good chance of repelling the invaders. He may have got lucky or is extremely shrewd in his choice of leaders but his military have performed exceptionally well with resolution and inventiveness. It's quite incredible really.

What is your source of information regarding money laundering? I only see dubious sources for these allegations. Looking at international money laundering there is an index known as the Basel AML (Anti Money Laundering) Index. It rates Ukraine as sixty fifth with the highest risk being number 1 (DR Congo). Russia is 58, UK 117:

https://index.baselgovernance.org/api/u ... 668efb.pdf

(Mind you I do not trust the big UK international banks - Barclays, HSBC etc.. nor our willingness to properly govern them, only making the right noises to appease us, but that is not for discussion on here)

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:03 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:15 pm
I believe it is a little more complex than you have described. It can be argued that the majority of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to be governed by Russia.

I struggle to take Zelensky seriously as it feels like Ricky Gervais being PM of the UK.

Let me be clear that I am in no way defending Putin. He is a very dangerous individual who seems to have little respect for human life and the sooner he is no longer in power the better. But let's not portray Zelensky as some kind of super hero. He openly denied bombing Poland which could have had major consequences throughout Europe and the World. Even though he is Jewish let's not forget about his links to the far right Ukrainian neo Nazi groups such as the Azov Battalion. Let's also not forget that Ukraine is allegedly one of the biggest money laundering nations in the world.

I am not disputing that Putin is probably guilty of all the above allegations also with the exception of bombing Poland.

If you only source your information from Western based media sources such as the BBC, Reueters or CNN etc, you will be provided with 1 narrative and you will never receive a balanced account. When you only receive 1 side of the story that is not news it is propaganda.
Nobody is saying Ukraine is perfect and all Russians are bad,however, look at people in Russian media who put their heads above the parapet and complain,they end up fleeing the country at best. No offence but I believe you have an agenda.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by jtv » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:24 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:15 pm
It can be argued that the majority of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to be governed by Russia.
Based on sham referenda?

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:33 pm

I think anonymous claret is a Russian Bot.

Recent addition, do not engage with it.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Taffy on the wing » Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:10 pm

https://news.yahoo.com/russian-politici ... 46258.html

How long before this guy falls out of a window?

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:15 pm

https://www.fpri.org/article/2022/12/ho ... s-success/

Good analysis of the war and what could happen going forward

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:44 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:33 pm
I think anonymous claret is a Russian Bot.

Recent addition, do not engage with it.
Mods need to ban it.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Anonymous Claret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:05 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:33 pm
I think anonymous claret is a Russian Bot.

Recent addition, do not engage with it.
I am a long standing Clarets fan for nearly 50 years. My first game was Brighton in the 1972-73 promotion season but you feel free to call me a Russian BOT because I question the official narrative churned out by Western media sources.
One thing that the last couple of years has taught me is to not believe anything from the MSM without checking other sources first.
You obviously missed the points where I said I think that Putin is a narcissistic psychopath and the sooner he is out of power the better. I will add to that his invasion of Ukraine is despicable and the loss of lives to Russians and Ukrainians is heartbreaking.
However the reporting of the war is very 1 sided whereas Western sources mainly originating in 1 form or another through Reuters is very pro Ukrainian and anti Russian.
I can guarantee that if you were to visit similar message boards to this in Russia they would have similar people to the posters on here believing everything that TASS says to be gospel and anything that is pro Ukrainian to be Western propaganda. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. From the little of what I have seen from there have been atrocities committed by both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers.

I am going to respond to a couple more messages and then I am not going to engage with this thread anymore.

My only hope is that we can disagree without being disagreeable.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Anonymous Claret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:09 pm

bfcjg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:03 pm
Nobody is saying Ukraine is perfect and all Russians are bad,however, look at people in Russian media who put their heads above the parapet and complain,they end up fleeing the country at best. No offence but I believe you have an agenda.
I have no agenda, only questions, Read my reply to Lowbank Claret.

Then read your response to Lowbank Claret where you say I should be banned because I question the narrative by putting my head above the parapet. I may not need to flee the country but you want to get me banned from the message board for not having the same opinion as you. I think that is what they call irony.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:12 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:05 pm
I am a long standing Clarets fan for nearly 50 years. My first game was Brighton in the 1972-73 promotion season but you feel free to call me a Russian BOT because I question the official narrative churned out by Western media sources.
One thing that the last couple of years has taught me is to not believe anything from the MSM without checking other sources first.
You obviously missed the points where I said I think that Putin is a narcissistic psychopath and the sooner he is out of power the better. I will add to that his invasion of Ukraine is despicable and the loss of lives to Russians and Ukrainians is heartbreaking.
However the reporting of the war is very 1 sided whereas Western sources mainly originating in 1 form or another through Reuters is very pro Ukrainian and anti Russian.
I can guarantee that if you were to visit similar message boards to this in Russia they would have similar people to the posters on here believing everything that TASS says to be gospel and anything that is pro Ukrainian to be Western propaganda. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. From the little of what I have seen from there have been atrocities committed by both Russian and Ukrainian soldiers.

I am going to respond to a couple more messages and then I am not going to engage with this thread anymore.

My only hope is that we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Telegram sources from the front are good, but they require someone who speaks either Ukrainian or Russian to translate them

Anything from either sides official channels is propaganda, and needs to be labelled as such

The big issue is with Russian sources claiming to be independent, or Russian sources from their TV stations, and they can't be trusted at all

Its possible to build a pic of what is happening using a variety of enthusiasts and military analysts, but you have to be really careful about who knows what and whether its reliable

My policy is to follow people on twitter who appear to know what they are talking about, until they do something that no one else is talking about or they just repeat stuff that is clearly not true

It just requires a bit of care, and its silly to say the MSM media don't know or can't be trusted

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Anonymous Claret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:14 pm

jtv wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:24 pm
Based on sham referenda?
It could well have been a sham referendum but it could have been genuine. Again it depends on which source you believe. If you read Western media it was a sham. If you read Russian media it was an injustice. People gather their information from 'trusted' sources and they also add to that their own personal bias.
I will be clear again I do not trust either the Russian media or the Western media.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:20 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:14 pm
It could well have been a sham referendum but it could have been genuine. Again it depends on which source you believe. If you read Western media it was a sham. If you read Russian media it was an injustice. People gather their information from 'trusted' sources and they also add to that their own personal bias.
I will be clear again I do not trust either the Russian media or the Western media.
Come off it, how could it be genuine?

There is questioning the official narrative, and there is stuff like that

There is no doubt that some of the ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine want to live in Russia, but the sheer fact the Ukrainian army has been able to hold on to places like Kharkiv for eight years suggests that they are nowhere near a majority

I doubt its even a majority in Donestk and Luhansk, and if it is, its by what is effectively ethnic cleansing

Remember there are over 2 million Ukrainians in Russia, and they are not allowed to return home

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:23 pm

Would that be Reuters, the internationally recognised world leading news agency ? OK sure your sources are much more reliable
:roll:

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Anonymous Claret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:24 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:12 pm
Telegram sources from the front are good, but they require someone who speaks either Ukrainian or Russian to translate them

Anything from either sides official channels is propaganda, and needs to be labelled as such

The big issue is with Russian sources claiming to be independent, or Russian sources from their TV stations, and they can't be trusted at all

Its possible to build a pic of what is happening using a variety of enthusiasts and military analysts, but you have to be really careful about who knows what and whether its reliable

My policy is to follow people on twitter who appear to know what they are talking about, until they do something that no one else is talking about or they just repeat stuff that is clearly not true

It just requires a bit of care, and its silly to say the MSM media don't know or can't be trusted
That's a fair enough reply and I know that you are probably 1 of the most knowledgeable posters on this subject.
I am not the real DA but I am playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate in this matter. I don't mean to antagonise my fellow clarets I just want to put forward an alternative perspective.
I think that you are right that the 'bombing' of Poland was not intended to cause any harm to Polish citizens and it was fired as you say to take out a Russian missile. My major gripe was that Zelensky completely denied it was fired from Ukraine which could have had serious repercussions for the world.
I will finish on the media before I decide to leave this thread. Someone once told me a wise saying ' Not everything in the MSM is false and not everything in the independent media is true'. You can reverse this statement around to whichever media is your main source of information.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:24 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:20 pm
Come off it, how could it be genuine?

There is questioning the official narrative, and there is stuff like that

There is no doubt that some of the ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine want to live in Russia, but the sheer fact the Ukrainian army has been able to hold on to places like Kharkiv for eight years suggests that they are nowhere near a majority

I doubt its even a majority in Donestk and Luhansk, and if it is, its by what is effectively ethnic cleansing

Remember there are over 2 million Ukrainians in Russia, and they are not allowed to return home
Laancaster, please don’t encourage nonsense posters on this thread by engaging with them.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:31 pm

Anonymous Claret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:24 pm
That's a fair enough reply and I know that you are probably 1 of the most knowledgeable posters on this subject.
I am not the real DA but I am playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate in this matter. I don't mean to antagonise my fellow clarets I just want to put forward an alternative perspective.
I think that you are right that the 'bombing' of Poland was not intended to cause any harm to Polish citizens and it was fired as you say to take out a Russian missile. My major gripe was that Zelensky completely denied it was fired from Ukraine which could have had serious repercussions for the world.
I will finish on the media before I decide to leave this thread. Someone once told me a wise saying ' Not everything in the MSM is false and not everything in the independent media is true'. You can reverse this statement around to whichever media is your main source of information.
No problem here from me with that!

Thing is, the mainstream media still is much more reliable (of course, you need to have a balance of various views or its just silly)

I fully agree that some of the actions of certain media outlets in the past few years have declined massively, but it doesn't tend to be in foreign affairs

The Daily Telegraph is still excellent for anything like this (but hopeless on Europe/Brexit stuff) for example

The more contributors to this thread the better btw, especially ones that are genuinely interested in it

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:33 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:24 pm
Laancaster, please don’t encourage nonsense posters on this thread by engaging with them.
Unfair that Elwa

Its best to explain why you think like you do when you disagree with someone who clearly isn't just spamming the thread

I could go on for hours about how a lot of the Western media/commentators ideas on Russia having an internal revolution and becoming a valuable member of the democratic society are for the birds (sadly)

They have just never had it, and their experience with a flawed democracy has just made them even less likely to embrace it
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