Russia Invades

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:54 am

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 am
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk

One for the pragmatists.
You say "pragmatists"

I say "people who don't get that this problem will then occur again in 3/4/5 years time"
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:25 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:54 am
You say "pragmatists"

I say "people who don't get that this problem will then occur again in 3/4/5 years time"
If we're still here in 3/4/5 years time.

I wish I had the certainties of contributers to this thread.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:39 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:25 pm
If we're still here in 3/4/5 years time.

I wish I had the certainties of contributers to this thread.
Its not a certainty

But there is historical precedents which suggest that making peace on Putins terms would be seriously bad news

My opinion is that as he's on the verge of a catastrophic military defeat, then now is the time to make sure that happens, rather than give him time to rearm and try again
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:40 pm

CoolClaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:39 am
Reads more as appeasement than to be honest - just letting Putin have the Donbas to save face? I think he needs to understand that you can’t just annex territory at will.

Understand the nuclear concern but as other posters earlier commented when someone says ‘this is not a bluff’…. It’s probably a bluff.

Takes some real cajones to call it mind..

Yes... Totally see it as a form of appeasement CC, and that's certainly become a dirty word since Chamberlain's exploits 80-odd years ago.

Hitler nonetheless didn't have the WMDs to chuck around that are probably available to Putin, and hence it's a very different situation. I suspect that some of those bandying around all sorts of gung-ho comments have no more grasp of the realities than I have myself.

Hopefully our leaders are operating on something beyond guesswork and have more control over the situation than often appears to be the case.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:43 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:40 pm
Yes... Totally see it as a form of appeasement CC, and that's certainly become a dirty word since Chamberlain's exploits 80-odd years ago.

Hitler nonetheless didn't have the WMDs to chuck around that are probably available to Putin, and hence it's a very different situation. I suspect that some of those bandying around all sorts of gung-ho comments have no more grasp of the realities than I have myself.

Hopefully our leaders are operating on something beyond guesswork and have more control over the situation than often appears to be the case.
It is appeasement though

So you let the fear of his nukes allow him to do what he wants?

How do you think that is going to end up?
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:33 am
https://twitter.com/MarkHertling/status ... 6524838915

Ex US NATO C in C on Russian training
Very enlightening, they will be cannon fodder.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:05 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:43 pm
It is appeasement though

So you let the fear of his nukes allow him to do what he wants?

How do you think that is going to end up?
I'm not proposing solutions LC. I'm making observations.

Unlike you I don't purport to have the answers. I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the complexities of the situation are beyond the simplistic responses we see here.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:07 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:05 pm
I'm not proposing solutions LC. I'm making observations.

Unlike you I don't purport to have the answers. I'm merely suggesting that perhaps the complexities of the situation are beyond the simplistic responses we see here.
I'm not saying I have the answers mate, and you know that

All I am saying is that we have to be very careful how we negotiate with someone who is essentially threatening nukes so he can annex 1/5 of a country he has invaded

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by fatboy47 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:07 pm
I'm not saying I have the answers mate, and you know that

All I am saying is that we have to be very careful how we negotiate with someone who is essentially threatening nukes so he can annex 1/5 of a country he has invaded
Yes. I agree100%.

And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.

And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:51 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pm
Yes. I agree100%.

And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.

And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.
But that goes without saying!

Putin is gambling that he can threaten this to get what he wants and we will all go "Oh no! Quick, give him what he wants"

The key things to remember

- Tactical nukes will kill thousands of Russian troops and Russian speaking separatists - they have none or little NBC capability, and everyone knows this

- Putin doesn't want to die

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bobinho » Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:21 pm

But he needs to. 🤔😳

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:00 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pm
Yes. I agree100%.

And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.

And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.
At least you're honest.
I disagree, and I pray that the majority agree with me.
The price of capitulating to Putin's threats go way beyond Ukraine losing territory. The ramifications will be felt in many countries throughout the World. What do you imagine Putin will do, IF he thinks all he has to do is threaten us and we'll give him anything he wants.

I want my Grandchildren to live, but I also want them to live in a World where they are free to grow, and seek a life that suits them, free to be whatever they want to be. Living without fear of facing a cell for not conforming. If that requires telling Putin to F**K Off, then he can F**K Off. Hang the consequences, because the consequences of doing nothing is far greater.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by CoolClaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:16 pm

Stumbled upon this video of the Guardian that gives a great summary of Putin’s outlook on Ukraine from a historical perspective (his own biased perspective may I add)

https://youtu.be/zveUHZCvrzc

Also, a good resource here on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/

Shows current videos of men being mobilised in Chechnya & Yakutsk (eastern Russia/Siberia)

Of course, Putin killing two birds with one stone, continuing his barbaric campaign and killing off a few ethnic groups that don’t know any better.

Very sad

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Hipper » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:43 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 am
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk

One for the pragmatists.
Subscription page. I can't read it.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Boss Hogg » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:57 pm

Allowing the annexation of a bit of a country now means they will want to come back for more later. See Hitler and the Sudetenland.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Hipper » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:03 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:14 am
I think China hold the key to this war. If they publicly denounced Putin now and categorically ruled out support, it’d be over quickly. There’s a great opportunity for China to restore deteriorating ties with the West here, which ultimately is far more important to its future than good relations with Russia. But I also doubt they’d want to stab a BRICS ally in the back.

They are small but in the context of how Russia controls its people and the media, not insignificant I would say. It’s a sign there’s not unanimous support for Putin or the war and unless Putin is stupid he’ll know that’s only going to grow.

If I were a Russian male though, I wouldn’t bother with the protests and would just bail if I could.
I would have thought it is in China's interest to have a strong enough Russia in order to distract 'The West' and allow China to carry out its own ambitions. What outcome they want in Ukraine I've no idea but a weak Russia is not one of them. And remember, Russia is still an enormous source of energy and minerals and may become more so as global warming occurs - Siberia.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Hipper » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:22 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:43 am
The real issue with that argument is that rewards aggression and it just means Russia goes back to rebuilding a stronger army and return to attack again in 5-10 years time.

When do you stop giving in when we all know the goal is to take back most of the EU.

The best solution is to kick the Russians out of Ukraine altogether. Then add them to NATO.
Become energy independent.

Build a very big wall along the border and leave Russia to its self to do its own thing.
I know what outcome I want from this war above all others - a benign Russia wishing to be part of the global community in a positive way. That means disposing of Putin and his cronies and having a western style democracy, but not like those of Hungary, Poland and possibly how Ukraine was going to be. That would hopefully also remove the Belarus president too.

Unfortunately, in the real world I can't see this happening. We already tolerate and trade with gangsters so we can talk to Putin, perhaps through the offices of the UN. What does Putin want as a minimum. What he doesn't want is firstly, a large NATO country on Russia's border, and secondly, Russian humiliation. In that case, still dealing with Putin or his replacement, we will have to assure them that Ukraine does not join NATO and does not become obviously anti-Russian. That might pacify them. Some Russian access to Sevastopol would also be necessary. The question of Ukraine joining the EU is for the EU, Ukraine and Russia.

If you think that is not possible then I don't see what other outcome in this war there could be except the complete removal and/or destruction of the Russian armed forces in Ukraine. This will be so humiliating to Russia that there will be medium to long term repercussions, as there was with Germany after WW1.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:00 pm

Hipper wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:22 pm
I know what outcome I want from this war above all others - a benign Russia wishing to be part of the global community in a positive way. That means disposing of Putin and his cronies and having a western style democracy, but not like those of Hungary, Poland and possibly how Ukraine was going to be. That would hopefully also remove the Belarus president too.

Unfortunately, in the real world I can't see this happening. We already tolerate and trade with gangsters so we can talk to Putin, perhaps through the offices of the UN. What does Putin want as a minimum. What he doesn't want is firstly, a large NATO country on Russia's border, and secondly, Russian humiliation. In that case, still dealing with Putin or his replacement, we will have to assure them that Ukraine does not join NATO and does not become obviously anti-Russian. That might pacify them. Some Russian access to Sevastopol would also be necessary. The question of Ukraine joining the EU is for the EU, Ukraine and Russia.

If you think that is not possible then I don't see what other outcome in this war there could be except the complete removal and/or destruction of the Russian armed forces in Ukraine. This will be so humiliating to Russia that there will be medium to long term repercussions, as there was with Germany after WW1.
It's possible to place Ukraine under the protectorate of NATO, whilst confirming no troops or weapons will be stationed there.
Even then it would still mean humiliation for Putin. I can't personally see any scenario that Putin wants, being acceptable to Ukraine or the West. If that's true then it's keep on fighting until he either gets removed inhouse or pushes the button.
We need another major success, as in Kharkiv, that highlights the inefficiencies of the Russians, and adds to the demoralization of their forces. 300,000 more witnesses to the truth of what is happening in Ukraine.
The lies being relayed to the Russian people can't possibly last forever. Sooner or later they have to wake up to the fact that something isn't right.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by KateR » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:35 pm

interesting tactic of where there are protests, those arrested of a certain age are given their draft papers to sign in jail and released/told to be at the draft centres in a few days. Also appears many of these have no special skill or training related to Putin's speech, on the other side many are taking to flight to avoid, cars/flights etc. and of course airfare have risen substantially!

This is definitely being between a rock and a hard place, what a horrible position to be in, feels like it's almost impossible to stop him but at some point it will come to an end, but a lot of people/families will have lives ruined by then. It's going to be a long horrid winter for many, with various levels of hardships, all stemming from one place, one person but the world, the west, the UN all seem powerless to end it quickly.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Taffy on the wing » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:45 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 am
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... premium-uk

One for the pragmatists.
One for the Macron types more like......he needs his feet held to the fire.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pm

fatboy47 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:47 pm
Yes. I agree100%.

And all I'm saying, is that given an (albeit sh1tty) choice between Russia helping itself to a chunk of Ukraine and the end of the modern world as we know it....well, call me Mr Timid, but I'd prefer the former.

And a bit of fag-packet guesswork claiming "it'll be reight" from a football messageboard doesn't go all that far to reassure me.
So Mr Timid,

When do you finally grow a pair. Metaphorically.
What’s your red line??
Poland?
Germany?
France?

History tells us, he ain’t stopping. RT is telling us Russia is not stopping

He has to be stopped and defeated in Ukraine. We need to send more and more arms and now.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:10 pm

KateR wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:35 pm
interesting tactic of where there are protests, those arrested of a certain age are given their draft papers to sign in jail and released/told to be at the draft centres in a few days. Also appears many of these have no special skill or training related to Putin's speech, on the other side many are taking to flight to avoid, cars/flights etc. and of course airfare have risen substantially!

This is definitely being between a rock and a hard place, what a horrible position to be in, feels like it's almost impossible to stop him but at some point it will come to an end, but a lot of people/families will have lives ruined by then. It's going to be a long horrid winter for many, with various levels of hardships, all stemming from one place, one person but the world, the west, the UN all seem powerless to end it quickly.
It’s a very difficult and horrible situation. But it’s not impossible to stop him.

Ukrainians historically have been very hard fighters, which they are replicating today.

We need to arm then to defend themselves, these poor 300,000 will just be dead men walking , but not for long.

Russia has lost around 60% of its armour vehicles, these guys will be going into battle with no air support, very few tanks and armoured support vehicles . WW1 guns and limited body armour. Limited clothing and it’s just about winter.

This is a last dice throw of a leader who knows it’s **** or bust time.

It’s time to arm Ukraine to the teeth and make sure they win.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by NewClaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:21 pm

Hipper wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:03 pm
I would have thought it is in China's interest to have a strong enough Russia in order to distract 'The West' and allow China to carry out its own ambitions. What outcome they want in Ukraine I've no idea but a weak Russia is not one of them. And remember, Russia is still an enormous source of energy and minerals and may become more so as global warming occurs - Siberia.
If they want a ‘strong’ Russia I think that ship has sailed.

It’s military has been decimated save its nuclear threat (if that even exists - they lie a lot!), and now they’re an international pariah state.

I think they’ve stayed on the sidelines pretty quietly to see which way the wind is blowing, but now it’s clearly against Russia I’d say their options are to:

Back Russia - then face all the other sanctions/isolation that comes with it.

Stay as they are - probably alienating Putin anyway, for not backing him.

Back the West - building/restoring relations with a FAR bigger market place and probably washing over their own human rights atrocities somewhat for being seen to do the right thing on this occasion.

I think they might just chose the latter. There’s far more to gain in my opinion. And a weak Russia means weak commodity prices for them to take advantage of.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:25 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:21 pm
If they want a ‘strong’ Russia I think that ship has sailed.

It’s military has been decimated save its nuclear threat (if that even exists - they lie a lot!), and now they’re an international pariah state.

I think they’ve stayed on the sidelines pretty quietly to see which way the wind is blowing, but now it’s clearly against Russia I’d say their options are to:

Back Russia - then face all the other sanctions/isolation that comes with it.

Stay as they are - probably alienating Putin anyway, for not backing him.

Back the West - building/restoring relations with a FAR bigger market place and probably washing over their own human rights atrocities somewhat for being seen to do the right thing on this occasion.

I think they might just chose the latter. There’s far more to gain in my opinion. And a weak Russia means weak commodity prices for them to take advantage of.
China are between a rock and a hard place. They want Russian energy to make things to sell to the West and while China has now got the production they still have to import most of their tech from the West, their biggest market….

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by NewClaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:26 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:59 pm
So Mr Timid,

When do you finally grow a pair. Metaphorically.
What’s your red line??
Poland?
Germany?
France?

History tells us, he ain’t stopping. RT is telling us Russia is not stopping

He has to be stopped and defeated in Ukraine. We need to send more and more arms and now.
Absolutely agree. Bullies only respond to force.

Otherwise, by extension anyone with a nuclear missile should be allowed to do / take whatever they want.

I am no expert but given the age of the Russian kit I don’t really believe their nuclear threat will be anywhere near as strong as we think, and certainly nothing like the US.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by NewClaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:29 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:25 pm
China are between a rock and a hard place. They want Russian energy to make things to sell to the West and while China has now got the production they still have to import most of their tech from the West, their biggest market….
Here’s the thing though - they don’t really have to alienate Russia to placate the West. If they came out publicly and denounced the war, asked Putin to stop and clearly stated they would not support him militarily or financially, save any existing relationships/contracts, Russia might be mad but wouldn’t stop selling them energy.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:30 pm

Russia cannot attack anyone if their soldiers refuse to fight. If Putin is such a history buff (as he claims) he only has to look at WW1 to see a potential outcome of refusing to listen.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by AlargeClaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:38 pm

Vlad has now surely given up on Kiev /Kharkiv and will look to advance to seal up the Donbas and put it under Russian sovereignty. Then attempt “ crimea style “ to rubber stamp it and then “ nobly “ order ceasefire . Russia’s vast oil/ gas etc will talk turkey and I really can’t see Europe saying “ niet” to long term energy . However I’d imagine the USA will have other ideas and ultimately ensure Russia is pushed back to where it belongs .

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:50 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:38 pm
Vlad has now surely given up on Kiev /Kharkiv and will look to advance to seal up the Donbas and put it under Russian sovereignty. Then attempt “ crimea style “ to rubber stamp it and then “ nobly “ order ceasefire . Russia’s vast oil/ gas etc will talk turkey and I really can’t see Europe saying “ niet” to long term energy . However I’d imagine the USA will have other ideas and ultimately ensure Russia is pushed back to where it belongs .
If this war has not got our leaders to understand that energy self sufficiency is not our number 1 priority, they simple don’t have a brain.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:04 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:50 pm
If this war has not got our leaders to understand that energy self sufficiency is not our number 1 priority, they simple don’t have a brain.
True self sufficiency is only really possible with Nationalisation. It is not for nothing Maggie is accused by many of selling the family silver. With privatisation goes the public voice, most of our infrastructure remains in the hands of foreign companies/powers; the practical reality isn’t going to change, because it would require undermining the memory of Maggie to do so.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:19 pm

Phillips OBrien: There is a special place in hell for those who cheer on others to go and fight and die, and then run away when given the chance to join those they so patriotically cheered on.

Ukraine Battle Map: Russian who is Pro-War celebrated the Partial Mobilization on Twitter

Less than 2 hours later, he receives a Convocation for Mobilization. He then immediately switches to be Anti-War and flees to Georgia, so he wouldn’t need to fight the war he supported for the last 7 months


https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/sta ... KIXkx1UuiA
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by welsbyswife » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:05 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:19 pm
Phillips OBrien: There is a special place in hell for those who cheer on others to go and fight and die, and then run away when given the chance to join those they so patriotically cheered on.

Ukraine Battle Map: Russian who is Pro-War celebrated the Partial Mobilization on Twitter

Less than 2 hours later, he receives a Convocation for Mobilization. He then immediately switches to be Anti-War and flees to Georgia, so he wouldn’t need to fight the war he supported for the last 7 months


https://twitter.com/phillipspobrien/sta ... KIXkx1UuiA
Classic! No different to Putin really. Happy to send thousands of young lads to their deaths but wouldn't risk his own skin. Always the way. Not hard to see why there's a reluctance to fight for him. I know I'd be on my way to Georgia asap if I was Russian!

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Gaia » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:34 pm

From the Guardian
Among those who have been called up since the Russian president’s announcement yesterday include Russians detained while protesting in cities across the country, the OVD-Info rights group said.

One protester in Moscow was told they faced a 10-year jail sentence for refusing to receive an enlistment order, it said.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by welsbyswife » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:22 pm

Genuine apologies. Shouldn't have made the political comment above, even though it was only light hearted. Don't want to derail the thread from its purpose.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:41 pm

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/russian-forei ... 35291.html
They just cannot stand any criticism. Pathetic really.
As an aside let's keep it on Russia and Ukraine please. The thread on the Royal family was locked due to pathetic bickering, this thread could well be one of the most informative important ones we have had on here with some really informative posters contributing, please let's keep it on topic.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:50 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:04 pm
True self sufficiency is only really possible with Nationalisation. It is not for nothing Maggie is accused by many of selling the family silver. With privatisation goes the public voice, most of our infrastructure remains in the hands of foreign companies/powers; the practical reality isn’t going to change, because it would require undermining the memory of Maggie to do so.
To be fair, if every 1 in two houses had solar, we would be almost self sufficient already. The answers are out there, we are just not brave enough to embrace it.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:53 pm

tarkys_ears wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:34 pm
No need to ask what wing taffy is on
Keep the politics out of this please

Energy sufficiency is key for us going forward, but so is Net Zero
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:54 pm

welsbyswife wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:07 pm
But anyone dare try to put a solar farm in the Tory shires.......
If 1 in two two houses had solar we be almost self sufficient already.

It should finance by the government, if it was free, no payback and suddenly you had major reduced bills. The queue would be as large as the one at the Finlands border.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Taffy on the wing » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:42 am

Top Claret wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:38 pm
Nett zero before energy security. High taxation, public spending, vanity projects, state control, the list is endless.
You're out of your mind.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Taffy on the wing » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:53 am

I apologize for getting off topic......
I'll refrain from posting on this thread....i too appreciate it & read it most days to get info on the War.
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:27 am

Voting underway in the occupied territories

I mean, full credit to the Russians here to make this look as dodgy as possible

Nothing says legitimacy other than a big official stamp eh?

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/15 ... 0598715392

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:31 am


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Re: Russia Invades

Post by bfcjg » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:40 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:27 am
Voting underway in the occupied territories

I mean, full credit to the Russians here to make this look as dodgy as possible

Nothing says legitimacy other than a big official stamp eh?

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/15 ... 0598715392
It could almost be a Blackadder sketch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h6mJw50OdZ4

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:12 am

Pretty much anything & everything that comes out of Russia is propaganda and it really is comical.

This quote from Russian novelist (author of the Gulag Archipelago) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn springs to mind -

“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:52 am

CoolClaret wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:12 am
Pretty much anything & everything that comes out of Russia is propaganda and it really is comical.

This quote from Russian novelist (author of the Gulag Archipelago) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn springs to mind -

“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”
Quote from similar (can't remember the original, but its from the Hunt for Red October by Tom Clancy)

"As long as they pretend to pay us, we will continue to pretend to work"

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:09 am

CoolClaret wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:12 am
Pretty much anything & everything that comes out of Russia is propaganda and it really is comical.

This quote from Russian novelist (author of the Gulag Archipelago) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn springs to mind -

“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”
That quote sums so much up perfectly here. Surely the Russians know full well that nobody outside Russian believes a word of the constant garbage coming out of their mouths and yet they cannot help but keep spouting it. Even this joke referendum stuff is clearly something they know full well nobody in their right mind will believe is fair or in any way "real", but they're going to do it anyway. Because they simply can't help themselves.
Another observation which someone alluded to above in passing is that sending 300,000 extra troops to the front is actually another 300,000 witnesses to exactly what's really happening in Ukraine and how badly Russia is failing and that just makes it so much harder for the Putin crowd to keep hoodwinking their general populace (hopefully!)

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:21 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:09 am
That quote sums so much up perfectly here. Surely the Russians know full well that nobody outside Russian believes a word of the constant garbage coming out of their mouths and yet they cannot help but keep spouting it. Even this joke referendum stuff is clearly something they know full well nobody in their right mind will believe is fair or in any way "real", but they're going to do it anyway. Because they simply can't help themselves.
Another observation which someone alluded to above in passing is that sending 300,000 extra troops to the front is actually another 300,000 witnesses to exactly what's really happening in Ukraine and how badly Russia is failing and that just makes it so much harder for the Putin crowd to keep hoodwinking their general populace (hopefully!)
I think the problem is that if they could train, and equip these 300,000 (which early estimates suggest might be on the low side) with modern weapons then they would make a difference

But they need troops at the front line now, and the likelhood is that these guys will get absolutely basic training and be sent to front line units to try to hold the line

It takes time, money and equipment to train a good soldier, and all the indications are that Russia has none of that
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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Dark Cloud » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:30 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:21 am
I think the problem is that if they could train, and equip these 300,000 (which early estimates suggest might be on the low side) with modern weapons then they would make a difference

But they need troops at the front line now, and the likelhood is that these guys will get absolutely basic training and be sent to front line units to try to hold the line

It takes time, money and equipment to train a good soldier, and all the indications are that Russia has none of that
Yes, I definitely agree. Rarely has the term "cannon fodder" been so apt since The Somme, July 1st, 1916.

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:33 am

Dark Cloud wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:30 am
Yes, I definitely agree. Rarely has the term "cannon fodder" been so apt since The Somme, July 1st, 1916.
Well, no (with respect)

They were trained troops, which had taken the best part of a year to train

These poor bastards won't get that time

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Re: Russia Invades

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:21 am
I think the problem is that if they could train, and equip these 300,000 (which early estimates suggest might be on the low side) with modern weapons then they would make a difference

But they need troops at the front line now, and the likelhood is that these guys will get absolutely basic training and be sent to front line units to try to hold the line

It takes time, money and equipment to train a good soldier, and all the indications are that Russia has none of that
I think these conscripts have had their 1 year national service (that is meant to be absolutely amateur btw) and I doubt they’ll be given any extra training.

Speculation on what they’ll be used for - either as cannon fodder on an offensive or just to bolster already held lines whilst the more ‘specialised’ troops mount an offensive.

Another great point I’ve read is about how these lot are going to be fighting a severely well-trained, battle-hardened army that will be sharp, fearless and brutal… i mean they have already been through hell and back.

As soon as a mortar drops near them or a few bullets fly by and reality kicks in, they’re going to wish they were back in the ‘motherland’ real quick.

Even footage of them holding their rifles shows incompetence; fingers on the trigger, using the muzzle to get to their feet from a prone/crouching position.

Really not going to end well for them
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