I think a ‘friend’ has possibly tried to scam me - Genistar!

[jdrobbo]

Hi everyone. I’m not quite sure where to start with this, so I apologise in advance if it turns into a bit of a ramble. Please stick with me.

I am a teacher and I run two after-school clubs. In one of these clubs, I have been heavily supported by a parent of two children that I used to teach, for eight or nine years now. The chn have since left the school but this person has continued to be very loyal and supportive.

About a year ago, I made a decision to go part time, for a number of reasons that I don’t particularly want to go into and I recall telling said person about my change of hours after the club I ran one evening.

Fast forward a couple of months and I was on holiday… I received a WhatsApp message asking me if I would participate in a zoom meeting… a 30 minute presentation, which outlined a new business venture for this parent. As it happened, I couldn’t attend any of the three times that I was presented with, so nothing came of it.

However last weekend, whilst at home isolating with Covid, I received a message again, just like before, asking me if I could join a 30 minute presentation on Zoom, just to see what the new business was all about. I sent a message to the person… let’s call him XX for the sake of this discussion, asking what the business was and whether I needed to do anything other than listen and offer some feedback. The response was to just come with a coffee, see what his new business was and see if it could be of any interest to anyone I know. I didn’t feel as though I’d been given a proper answer and I started to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.

Anyway, I did agree to joining in the conversation and I logged on at one of the three suggested times that I was given.

I was greeted by three presenters, one of which was XX. He spoke to me first and then quickly said that he wouldn’t be presenting… It would be somebody else.

Anyway, cutting ahead, the new business this guy was a part of was called Genistar…

“….founded in 2007 and is one of the fastest growing financial services companies in the UK…dedicated to educating families about their financial choices.”

I was asked a few questions because surprise surprise, I was one of the only two people present and I didn’t see any interaction with the other person despite being told that they were online! Many people refer to this company when they are unhappy at work or when they want to make a little bit of extra income… None of these apply to me, but it did make me think back to the conversations I have previously had with ex ex about choosing to work four days instead of five.


I was then shown a wide range of graphs which showed how much money I could earn if I started to work for the company, setting up my own little side business in the process. Having recently listen to a podcast about crypto scams, I instantly started to say this is a pyramid scheme. Interestingly, to qualify, a payment of £140 will need to be made, in order to have financial checks done and to set up basic tests that I need to pass!

I now felt as though I was being “recruited” into the business, in the hope of me then going on and recruiting my own clients… These clients would therefore form a lower level of the pyramid…and so on!

I have done a bit of research on the company and in the main, everything they do appears to be legal, but there are hundreds of people out there who claim that it’s a scam. In my head, it’s absolutely a scam to rinse people of their money…but I had a lot of respect for this bloke!

I need to make it absolutely clear that I will not be entering into any further conversation about this, nor will I be inviting any of my friends to look at the business. It’s an absolute no!!

What bothers me more is that XX is someone who I respected highly, but appears to actually be manipulating me and attempting to take me for a ride….or two, someone who I respected quite highly is actually been taken for a ride himself… and from what I gather, there aren’t many people that come out of this scheme smelling of roses (financially) and the irony of it all is that Genistar is supposed to help people financially!

Does anyone know about this company?

Does anyone have any advice?

Part of me feels that I should have it out with this person, but as I’ve said, I don’t think he is committing any illegal activity, and he would be a huge loss to the children at school. I do have morals though and would appreciate any constructive advice on what you would do.

Cheers

John

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

This them?

[Claretforever]

You were only asked to listen. When he chases you about it when you haven’t done anything, just say you gave him the respect you’d hope he’d give you by listening. You have thought about it and don’t feel it’s for you. Thanks for the opportunity.

If he then presses you, that’s when you say that you’ve been quite clear you gave it some thought and would have hoped he would respect your decision.

Further pressing you’d say that you’d thought it’s not for you, but now he’s pressing you’re getting alarm bells…

[IanMcL]

Your 'friend' has every right to join such a scheme and once in, probably tries to attract everyone he knows, thinking it is all good. One day, he may feel differently.

I don't think he believes he is scamming you, which is an important part going forward.

You just say no thanks, not my cup of tea and carry on, where you left off.

I suspect he will just accept it. If he persists, over time, then you just point out the pyramid aspect and ask him not to mention it again.

In the end, the pressure for clients will either make him stop or change his behaviour.

Just at this moment, I would accept he thinks it is all ok.

No sleep worth losing. Your decision making is sound.

[Devils_Advocate]

No knowledge on that company but if its a Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) business then it could be the person you know has been sucked in and once in you get put under enormous pressure to recruit.

I know somebody whoo got involved in one of these firms and they ended up ruthlessly targeting family and friends to the point people start avoiding them. Luckily they got out with too little damage but I suspect the person you know might already be a victim rather than a scam artist but it can very quickly turn you in to a nasty piece of work

You've done the sensible thing and are staying clear and if it was a person you were friends with Id encourage you to try and help them but as its just an acquaintancen then cut ties and steer clear

[IanMcL]

Robbo...can I interest you in a very different scheme?

All you need is a goodwill donation of £140. After that, you may have every opportunity to accrue more than that. I assume you know lots of people? Loners would not benefit!

[jdrobbo]

I think right now, whilst I know I will stay well clear, my main concern is that he is going to get hit financially. He was listed as Vice-president on the presentation….interesting…the company has been established since 2007, yet he’s only just joined it….closer inspection shows there are countless Vice Presidents in the company, all showing on what would be the next level up in the pyramid!!!!

[jdrobbo]

https://youtu.be/UMpcR4mAQQQ

This is very similar to the presentation I was shown.

15 minutes for said graphs and pyramid red flags!!!

[jdrobbo]

No knowledge on that company but if its a Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) business then it could be the person you know has been sucked in and once in you get put under enormous pressure to recruit.

I know somebody whoo got involved in one of these firms and they ended up ruthlessly targeting family and friends to the point people start avoiding them. Luckily they got out with too little damage but I suspect the person you know might already be a victim rather than a scam artist but it can very quickly turn you in to a nasty piece of work

You've done the sensible thing and are staying clear and if it was a person you were friends with Id encourage you to try and help them but as its just an acquaintancen then cut ties and steer clear

Thanks DA. This is what my gut is telling me!

[jdrobbo]

Your 'friend' has every right to join such a scheme and once in, probably tries to attract everyone he knows, thinking it is all good. One day, he may feel differently.

I don't think he believes he is scamming you, which is an important part going forward.

You just say no thanks, not my cup of tea and carry on, where you left off.

I suspect he will just accept it. If he persists, over time, then you just point out the pyramid aspect and ask him not to mention it again.

In the end, the pressure for clients will either make him stop or change his behaviour.

Just at this moment, I would accept he thinks it is all ok.

No sleep worth losing. Your decision making is sound.

Cheers Ian

[jdrobbo]

https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

This them?

Yes I think so

[jdrobbo]

You were only asked to listen. When he chases you about it when you haven’t done anything, just say you gave him the respect you’d hope he’d give you by listening. You have thought about it and don’t feel it’s for you. Thanks for the opportunity.

If he then presses you, that’s when you say that you’ve been quite clear you gave it some thought and would have hoped he would respect your decision.

Further pressing you’d say that you’d thought it’s not for you, but now he’s pressing you’re getting alarm bells…

Agree. Cheers

[claptrappers_union]

I don’t know the organisation but it sounds like XX has got involved and there will be an incentive for them to recruit. He won’t be trying to scam you personally but XX has bought into some kind of pyramid or MLM scheme.

Trust your gut and steer clear. You may need to support XX when they come out the other side though.

[IanMcL]

These Pyramids are built on tears not tiers.

[DCWat]

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2010/ ... troduction

[2 Bee Holed]

Sounds like a modern day pyramid scheme to me.

25 years ago my GP tried to recruit me into a pyramid scheme.

[FCBurnley]

Run away as fast as you can

[jdrobbo]

Run away as fast as you can

Good job I can run

[Claret]

Sounds like a pyramid selling scheme which means it will be illegal as well as a scam

[Fretters]

I think, as others have said, this could be a multi level marketing business, which - whilst pyramid shaped - isn't the same as an illegal pyramid scheme.

The key is - once in the business - whether you can make money by selling their service to your customers or if you can only earn by recruiting others. If it's the latter, that's dodgy and you should stay well clear.

My other half works in multi level marketing as an independent travel agent. Whilst she could make a lot recruiting others, she makes her money by selling holidays as that's the part that interests her. I don't think she's bothered trying to recruit anybody else.

[Guller Bull]

Jdrobbo - we got involved in a mlm scheme in the late 90’s and we survived!!

It wasn’t the worst thing in the world and there were some decent products involved, I wish I could get hold of some of them now. There was decent training and literature but it cost you and we lost money and probably received bad financial advice.

It relies on recruiting others and to do that you have to have total belief in either a) yourself and/or b) the product(s) you are selling.

It always felt geeky and a bit cultish so consequently I had no confidence in selling the principle it to others.

Some people undoubtedly did make money but it wasn’t for us.

Like someone says above,politely but firmly decline and if you value their friendship tell them you will support them in their decision. They will move on to other people to try to recruit. When they eventually leave the scheme (which they more than likely will) they will probably be glad of your friendship and honesty.

Like most things in life, you learn more from your mistakes than you do from successes.

[MG70]

Sounds like a modern day pyramid scheme to me.

25 years ago my GP tried to recruit me into a pyramid scheme.

My driving instructor tried to get me involved in a scheme in the early nineties. There had just been a documentary on tv about the pitfalls of pyramid schemes and how devastating they were to families and friends who lost everything. I very quickly declined.

[NottsClaret]

I wouldn’t be too harsh, he’s maybe in a tough situation himself now.. or possibly still doesn’t realise. A lot of people even now don’t see pyramid schemes for what they are.

We had something similar at the start of lockdown. A parent from my daughters football team tried recruiting us into one, same Zoom call invite etc. She’s a really nice, genuine woman and was struggling for work so although we’d never join we were as polite and understanding as possible in saying so.

[claptrappers_union]

I couldn’t sleep last night so I did a bit of digging as I was curious to who they were.

It seems Genistar are a legitimate setup - but certainly not for me though. If you seriously invested your time into them, you could make a decent little side income… you could probably make a living if you dedicated to it full time and played their game - a bit like Utility Warehouse and the likes.

You have to be a certain type of person to make serious profit from it though, most people will give up the initial £140, spend a load of time on training courses, and phone everyone they know in the first few months and in the hope to introduce them to the businesses or to recruit them as well , then spend more money networking events while juggling it with their proper job and family commitments and then realise they’ve not made any worthy income for themselves or Genistar and eventually pack it in

[agreenwood]

Your overthinking it John.

As the cast of Grange Hill once sang, “just say no”.

[Hipper]

"............dedicated to educating families about their financial choices.”

Was there anywhere in the presentation that told you how they did this, or was it all about how you could earn money?

[andyh]

I think you know the answer to your question before even asking it.

It is a scam but whether your friend is a victim or a initiator only he will know.

[Sean Dyche's Watch]

I started to feel a bit uncomfortable about it.

Anyway, I did agree to joining in the conversation and I logged on at one of the three suggested times that I was given.

The question that came to my head whilst reading your post is why did you agree to join the conversation if you started to feel a bit uncomfortable about it?

[The Enclosure]

A lot of gullible people got enticed into Pyramid selling schemes back in the day..Only the people who were at the top of the Pyramid benefitted financially.Many others finished up with garages full of products they could not get rid of.One scheme I seem to remember was selling a cleaning product called Swipe.
Anyway John stay well clear is my advice.

[PeterWilton]

A financial advice MLM is kinda hilarious as a concept.

[claptrappers_union]

Was there anywhere in the presentation that told you how they did this, or was it all about how you could earn money?

I think you make commission as a business introducer to Friends Provident and F&C Investments. You won’t actually give any advice, it’ll be a script to follow when referring.

[Jimscho]

Many years ago I was Manager of a branch of Barclays.A well respected dentist came to me to borrow money for a similar sort os scheme although this involved some sort of water filter.He had been to numerous meeting and basically had been brainwashed into getting involved.I researched the company as much as i could but 30 years ago the internet wasnt what it is today.This was a multi level marketing scheme of as I prefer to call it,Pyramid selling.I refused to lend him the money and tried very hard to stop him getting involved.He was sold hook,line and sinker on the scheme(as I suspect your friend is).I believe he still went ahead with the scheme and lost money.The Company selling the product are very persuasive.I suspect this company your friend is may be American hence the term vice-presidents.A vice president in an American bank(i met a very attractive one whilst on a course)is not that high a position.Stay clear but I dont think you need me to tell you that.

[jdrobbo]

Your overthinking it John.

As the cast of Grange Hill once sang, “just say no”.

I absolutely know I am mate. Saying yes is not even a consideration. I think it’s the fact that I know him.

[jdrobbo]

The question that came to my head whilst reading your post is why did you agree to join the conversation if you started to feel a bit uncomfortable about it?

Because he has been a friend of mine for the best part of a decade. I like giving friends my time

[jdrobbo]

I think you know the answer to your question before even asking it.

It is a scam but whether your friend is a victim or a initiator only he will know.

And it’s the bit about my friend that concerns me.

[jdrobbo]

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate your feedback. Having done a bit of my own further digging, I see that XX joined the company in 2008! I imagine he is high up in the pyramid, so why say to me it’s his new business?

[Buxtonclaret]

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate your feedback. Having done a bit of my own further digging, I see that XX joined the company in 2008! I imagine he is high up in the pyramid, so why say to me it’s his new business?

If you've known him that long, suggest you sit down and have a serious word with your friend...

[Sean Dyche's Watch]

Because he has been a friend of mine for the best part of a decade. I like giving friends my time

I suspect he's only approached you because you are a teacher, with potential avenues to parents of the children you teach.

[Sean Dyche's Watch]

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate your feedback. Having done a bit of my own further digging, I see that XX joined the company in 2008! I imagine he is high up in the pyramid, so why say to me it’s his new business?

My view is that you need to ask him that.

[jdrobbo]

Yep, don’t disagree

[claptrappers_union]

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate your feedback. Having done a bit of my own further digging, I see that XX joined the company in 2008! I imagine he is high up in the pyramid, so why say to me it’s his new business?

Maybe XX worked their way up and gone full time in it or started to take it more seriously, with energy prices and the cost of living going up, it comes to no surprise why they are trying to make more commission with you getting onboard with them.

What you find with people involved in things like this is that they attended national conferences with inspirational speakers and then come away 'mega-pumped' after they see the recognition and success of other team leaders and then undertake their own recruitment drive when they get home, because they aim to be a Vice President in 6 months or achieve the goals they set themselves... like getting a branded company car or something.

XX has asked you for you time to watch a presentation, they've identified you as someone who works part time now, you engage with parents at school, your a moderator of a message board and you interact with many people at football matches and so on, so its might be something you might be interested in. I wouldn't worry XX trying to 'scam' you though. It's just something thats not for you. I think you might get some follow up emails from Genistar but if XX isn't pushy it'll never be mentioned again probably.

The problem with these things is that all very American. The message works with them lot, but us British are more cynical and see through the bullshit. I see it be being aimed lower income families with aspirations of being middle-class. You're probably better off getting a part time job at B&Q or something, its much easier.

[StuffyClaret]

Happy to admit that I am a member of a similar scheme. I have made my 'investment' (about £250 in my case) and am probably as sceptical about the scheme as anyone who hasn't joined. HOWEVER, there was something I saw in my scheme that has suggested to me that it MIGHT actually work AND I am not obliged to recruit others (although it does benefit me if I do), so I have been happy to take the risk in the knowledge that in the worst case scenario, I will be about £250 worse off.

One other thing to point out is that most businesses are of a 'pyramid' structure and that alone should not be what influences your decision.

[Colburn_Claret]

Just pyramid selling in the 21st Century.
The technology has improved, but the effect is the same. If you join the pyramid early you can make money at others expense but sooner or later it's saturated, and the man at the bottom loses out.
I had a good friend who tried to get me to join one years ago. He wasn't trying to con me, it was just that he bought into the plan, he thought he was doing me a favour. I would think xx probably thinks he's doing you a favour.

[Tribesmen]

If you think it's a con it is simple really , as i once heard somewhere " you can never cheat an honest man " as an honest man would never touch it .

[LS7]

Trust your instincts. I think you were right to feel like that. I once had an electrician over (rewiring) and he was trying to get me to sign up to some electric / gas tariff. All legit I am sure but he just wanted the commission. I felt uncomfortable and taken advantage of so I just shut the conversation down on about his 3rd attempt to get me to fill in some form.

[LS7]

Hmm. Genistar. Zoom meeting. £140 up front. It’s a massive no and a massive warning signal. Hard sell is always a no.

[jdrobbo]

Didn’t come across as a hard sell at all. The £140 (conveniently reduced to £70 for a brief period) only payable at the next meeting, if I’m interested…which of course I’m not

[claretonthecoast1882]

Being asked 4 times for the same think comes across a bit desperate.

I would change the word "friend" to something else

[Sean Dyche's Watch]

There's also your professional reputation as a teacher to consider, before getting involved in such schemes.

[claptrappers_union]

Theres plenty of similar organisations like Utility Warehouse, Avon, Herbalife, Nu Skin, Juice Plus, Tropics Skincare... I know loads of people who have types of 'side gigs' along side being nurses, teachers etc. I'm not sure where they find the time though.