The Academy/Barnfield

[fanzone]

When is it going to start producing players that will get anywhere near the first team.

[MT03ALG]

Looking at the board in the entrance to the Fanzone. The last two names on there are Aiden O'Neill and Dwight Mcneil !! Prior to that the last player to come through was 2012 !!

[Leisure]

When is it going to start producing players that will get anywhere near the first team.

Clown. In time.

[fanzone]

Clown. In time.

Great comment.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You have to remember that it will take time.

Not many academies actually produce first team players in the PL, see the link below

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/prem ... rs-1387302

If you're going to start expecting and demanding a raft of first team ready academy products then you're going to be disappointed.

Chelsea waited years after John Terry before they had their current glut.

Utd have some semi regularly, same with City but it isn't a massive number.

The academy is still quite new at the top level/Cat A so now they need to start persuading young players to choose us over other local Cat A and B academies.

[fanzone]

Did we not have a youth team/under 21s pre Barnfield

[boatshed bill]

You have to remember that it will take time.

Not many academies actually produce first team players in the PL, see the link below

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/prem ... rs-1387302

If you're going to start expecting and demanding a raft of first team ready academy products then you're going to be disappointed.

Chelsea waited years after John Terry before they had their current glut.

Utd have some semi regularly, same with City but it isn't a massive number.

The academy is still quite new at the top level/Cat A so now they need to start persuading young players to choose us over other local Cat A and B academies.

I thought that was what they were doing, picking up players from other academies/
Helm and Dodgson are ex-Man Utd.

[RVclaret]

Says quite a lot that the 23s manager is now in charge of the first team and none of the attackers are deemed good enough to be given a go, despite the bare bones of the first team.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I thought that was what they were doing, picking up players from other academies/
Helm and Dodgson are ex-Man Utd.

Yeah they have been, so was McNeil.
I wasn't paying attention when I said that part

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Did we not have a youth team/under 21s pre Barnfield

Yes we did but the quality of players attracted reflected the facilities and investment into the youth set up.

We had poor facilities and we were surrounded by bigger clubs with better academies.

[gandhisflipflop]

Clown. In time.

Is it time of the month leisure?

[boatshed bill]

I have to agree with giving Bobby Thomas a go ahead of Kevin Long.
at some point you have to give these young players a taste of what they aspire to.

[Leisure]

Is it time of the month leisure?

Why you asking me?

[Leisure]

Says quite a lot that the 23s manager is now in charge of the first team and none of the attackers are deemed good enough to be given a go, despite the bare bones of the first team.

But they're not. And that's not a criticism of them. The difference between the U23'S and the 1st team is massive and if you can't understand that!

[RVclaret]

But they're not. And that's not a criticism of them. The difference between the U23'S and the 1st team is massive and if you can't understand that!

Leeds have several u23 players involved with their first team who have gained vital experience this season. Geldhart even has a few goals. We’ve given the least minutes to u23 players in the entire league.

[Blakesboots]

Yes we did but the quality of players attracted reflected the facilities and investment into the youth set up.

We had poor facilities and we were surrounded by bigger clubs with better academies.

This is all you need to read.

[boatshed bill]

i watch as many games as possible from my sofa , and have to say that we don't seem to be capable of coaching what we have to the standard required.
whether that is due to the quality of player or a coaching issue, I wouldn't know.
it does appear that quite a few stall when you'd hope they'd push on.

[Sheedyclaret]

Even with our new shiny facilities we wont attract the best youngsters

[ClaretTony]

Did we not have a youth team/under 21s pre Barnfield

Barnfield (or Gawthorpe) is the training ground. At the time, our u18s played in the youth development league against the likes of Morecambe, Wrexham, Fleetwood etc. The under-23s were not in a league of any kind.

The improvement in the quality of players in those two teams is now a world away from what we had. Some of the lads who have come through recently, such as Josh Benson & Jimmy Dunne, have brought in fees and they went to Championship clubs. Dunne in particular has had a good season at QPR.

The improvement in the last six years has been remarkable given that it was close to closure because of how it had been run.

Whether it will produce a lot of Premier League players remains debateable but I can assure you that from what I’ve seen the progression is remarkable. And all done without a phone app.

[Leisure]

Leeds have several u23 players involved with their first team who have gained vital experience this season. Geldhart even has a few goals. We’ve given the least minutes to u23 players in the entire league.

Possibly because they're just not ready.

[Sheedyclaret]

Barnfield (or Gawthorpe) is the training ground. At the time, our u18s played in the youth development league against the likes of Morecambe, Wrexham, Fleetwood etc. The under-23s were not in a league of any kind.

The improvement in the quality of players in those two teams is now a world away from what we had. Some of the lads who have come through recently, such as Josh Benson & Jimmy Dunne, have brought in fees and they went to Championship clubs. Dunne in particular has had a good season at QPR.

The improvement in the last six years has been remarkable given that it was close to closure because of how it had been run.

Whether it will produce a lot of Premier League players remains debateable but I can assure you that from what I’ve seen the progression is remarkable. And all done without a phone app.

Would love to see the running cost difference

[Leisure]

Would love to see the running cost difference

Why?

[superdimitri]

Some time. Can't remember who it was but someone at the club recently said they even thought we were some time away.

[Darnhill Claret]

RV, it might be advisable to wait until the final relegation spot is decided before comparing us negatively to Leeds re playing younger, less experienced players. We have a lot of fans who post on here who would unfairly criticise our young players if they were introduced too soon. Having said that I have a feeling Bobby Thomas or someone similar might be in the next squad. Unfortunately.

[boatshed bill]

n. Having said that I have a feeling Bobby Thomas or someone similar might be in the next squad. Unfortunately.

Why would you say that?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Even with our new shiny facilities we wont attract the best youngsters

We don't need to attract the best, we need to be picking up the ones just below, who aren't taken by the likes of City, Utd etc or have been released by the like McNeil was.
We're now in a position to do that, offer a viable alternative for these lads.

[Raconteur]

Why?

Maybe he is just interested in knowing how much it costs at the lower level we were at and how much it costs for us to run at Cat A and will it be something we can continue to invest in? Would it be worth raising the budget?

[Blakesboots]

Barnfield (or Gawthorpe) is the training ground. At the time, our u18s played in the youth development league against the likes of Morecambe, Wrexham, Fleetwood etc. The under-23s were not in a league of any kind.

The improvement in the quality of players in those two teams is now a world away from what we had. Some of the lads who have come through recently, such as Josh Benson & Jimmy Dunne, have brought in fees and they went to Championship clubs. Dunne in particular has had a good season at QPR.

The improvement in the last six years has been remarkable given that it was close to closure because of how it had been run.

Whether it will produce a lot of Premier League players remains debateable but I can assure you that from what I’ve seen the progression is remarkable. And all done without a phone app.

The club has already recruited academy players using that phone app. I don’t feel that comment is needed.

You, correctly highlight the progress that’s been made, over time. Yet you discredit an avenue that needs time to prove its worth?

Double standards or an honest opinion.

[Raconteur]

We don't need to attract the best, we need to be picking up the ones just below, who aren't taken by the likes of City, Utd etc or have been released by the like McNeil was.
We're now in a position to do that, offer a viable alternative for these lads.

This is without doubt the most realistic way of us operating the youth system. We will never get first dibs on the top youngsters in our catchment area with all the competition and if we do manage to get a young maestro full of je ne sais quoi raising through our academy, they most likely will not make it to our first team as someone like City will swoop in to add to their academy

[Quickenthetempo]

We don't need to attract the best, we need to be picking up the ones just below, who aren't taken by the likes of City, Utd etc or have been released by the like McNeil was.
We're now in a position to do that, offer a viable alternative for these lads.

Even the top players at the top clubs don't always make it. Never mind their outcasts.

[BOYSIE31]

If you are good enough you are young enough

[Leisure]

If you are good enough you are young enough

And?

[Darnhill Claret]

Boatshed Bill, my thoughts are that Tarks may have an injury problem that means him missing games or breaking down if he takes a risk and plays. I haven’t seen or heard anything about the injury but it’s never good when a player goes down like that and goes off almost immediately.

[boatshed bill]

Boatshed Bill, my thoughts are that Tarks may have an injury problem that means him missing games or breaking down if he takes a risk and plays. I haven’t seen or heard anything about the injury but it’s never good when a player goes down like that and goes off almost immediately.

OK, sorry. i thought your comment was more against the young lad who has to be a better choice than Kevin Long( in my opinion of course).

[Sheedyclaret]

Why?

Because it aint producing anything and probably costing us millions probably get all downgraded if we drop down leagues

[Sheedyclaret]

If you are good enough you are young enough

Yeah but none are

[Burnley1989]

But they're not. And that's not a criticism of them. The difference between the U23'S and the 1st team is massive and if you can't understand that!

They really don’t, it’s easy in championship manager though

[Stayingup]

You have to remember that it will take time.

Not many academies actually produce first team players in the PL, see the link below

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/prem ... rs-1387302

If you're going to start expecting and demanding a raft of first team ready academy products then you're going to be disappointed.

Chelsea waited years after John Terry before they had their current glut.

Utd have some semi regularly, same with City but it isn't a massive number.

The academy is still quite new at the top level/Cat A so now they need to start persuading young players to choose us over other local Cat A and B academies.

I think West Ham have actually scrapped their youth academy. Finding ready made players was obviously a better option for them.

[dandeclaret]

This is all you need to read.

Well no, it’s more complicated than that. Somewhere in the last 12 years or so, the club lost its belief that it could compete with those bigger clubs, and offer a different experience. Therefore it became a self fulfilling prophecy, if you don’t try and fight for the best players, you’ve zero chance of getting the best players, and then guess what, you don’t produce players.

Hopefully that’s registered with people in the academy and they will now start to believe in themselves again.

[dandeclaret]

We don't need to attract the best, we need to be picking up the ones just below, who aren't taken by the likes of City, Utd etc or have been released by the like McNeil was.
We're now in a position to do that, offer a viable alternative for these lads.

Clubs don’t release those players though. It’s hard to distinguish between players who are going to be good premier league players or solid championship players. Hence city holding on to Ben Mee and Trippier even though they were spending multi millions, and the kids Liverpool have sold (Brewster, lad at Fulham, Cardiff etc) show that there’s a significant market for them. There will be the odd mistake, like Dwight being released at 14, but if you’re basing your strategy on that, rather than supplementing it with those mistakes, you will fail. It’s what the club have been doing for the last 10 years.

[Blakesboots]

Clubs don’t release those players though. It’s hard to distinguish between players who are going to be good premier league players or solid championship players. Hence city holding on to Ben Mee and Trippier even though they were spending multi millions, and the kids Liverpool have sold (Brewster, lad at Fulham, Cardiff etc) show that there’s a significant market for them. There will be the odd mistake, like Dwight being released at 14, but if you’re basing your strategy on that, rather than supplementing it with those mistakes, you will fail. It’s what the club have been doing for the last 10 years.

I agree, and the bigger academies and now ourselves need to look at how they treat kids that aren’t going to make the grade at their club. Too many hold onto players to fill out squads as enablers to the three or four that have a chance. United and Liverpool have found the ability to make money out of these players at a later date. Chelsea just release them and let them worry about themselves.

They hold on to them for too long and this ruins their chances of finding another club that they can grow their talent with.

[Blakesboots]

This is without doubt the most realistic way of us operating the youth system. We will never get first dibs on the top youngsters in our catchment area with all the competition and if we do manage to get a young maestro full of je ne sais quoi raising through our academy, they most likely will not make it to our first team as someone like City will swoop in to add to their academy

That’s not true, we’ve taken on many players that have had offers from the bigger clubs.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think West Ham have actually scrapped their youth academy. Finding ready made players was obviously a better option for them.

Tony made a comment the other day that Brentford can't compete in Europe because they've got no academy, west ham being in Europe would suggest they've still got theirs

[Blakesboots]

Well no, it’s more complicated than that. Somewhere in the last 12 years or so, the club lost its belief that it could compete with those bigger clubs, and offer a different experience. Therefore it became a self fulfilling prophecy, if you don’t try and fight for the best players, you’ve zero chance of getting the best players, and then guess what, you don’t produce players.

Hopefully that’s registered with people in the academy and they will now start to believe in themselves again.

It is more complicated than that, and I wasn’t around pre Barnfield, but I’ve seen pictures and heard people talk about that time. It’s right that if you showed a talent round Gawthorpe and then Melwood then it wasn’t even a choice to make! You can’t offer a different ‘experience’ unless you’ve got the faculties and facilities to make good on that offer.

[Blakesboots]

Tony made a comment the other day that Brentford can't compete in Europe because they've got no academy, west ham being in Europe would suggest they've still got theirs

An academy that’s produced: Cole, Rio, Lampard etc don’t going to be scraped. They’ve rebranded I think to make it ‘The Academy’

[dandeclaret]

It is more complicated than that, and I wasn’t around pre Barnfield, but I’ve seen pictures and heard people talk about that time. It’s right that if you showed a talent round Gawthorpe and then Melwood then it wasn’t even a choice to make! You can’t offer a different ‘experience’ unless you’ve got the faculties and facilities to make good on that offer.

Like you say, you weren’t there, so it’s ok to not understand that there are ways to be different outside of facilities and faculties. It’s ok to have an opinion, but it’s also ok for me to tell you that it’s a totally incorrect opinion. And I was there at the time.

[Hipper]

The argument of Kevin Long vs Bobby Thomas is poor. Kevin Long is experienced at Prem level and has generally done OK. Bobby Thomas hasn't played at this level at all and is still learning the trade. In a relegation battle, Long is an obvious choice. In a meaningless game you might consider Thomas.

I've seen Thomas twice on Youtube in under 23 matches. In one game he looked OK but his partner, Jacob Bedeau looked more impressive (he's been on loan at Morecambe and was used 22 times). In the second game Thomas looked lost and was not impressive at all. (of course I know, two matches......).

On the training facilities/Academy I would be interested to know the finances of running the whole youth set up (including players and coaches wages) compared to if we just ran the first team. I've never seen any comparison and for a financially second rate club like ours I don't see how we can compete with the big boys in the youth market anymore. The only time we could do it was when it was a new idea but once bigger clubs cottoned on we were out muscled. We seem to have more success picking up some of the richer clubs' leftovers.

[ClaretTony]

I think West Ham have actually scrapped their youth academy. Finding ready made players was obviously a better option for them.

West Ham haven't scrapped their academy.

Second behind Manchester City in the U23 league
https://www.uptheclarets.com/u23u18-sta ... e-2-202122

and second in the U18 league in the south
https://www.uptheclarets.com/u23u18-sta ... gue-202122

18 of the 20 Premier League clubs have Cat 1 academies, the two who haven't are Watford (Cat 2) and Brentford.

[KlyBfc]

Geldhart at Leeds. They paid around 1million for him (as Wigan went in to administration) and he’d already played 20ish games in league 1 with Wigan. So he had experienced ‘mens’ football at a physical level. He’s certainly not one Leeds produced (despite what they would try to convince you).

[Blakesboots]

Like you say, you weren’t there, so it’s ok to not understand that there are ways to be different outside of facilities and faculties. It’s ok to have an opinion, but it’s also ok for me to tell you that it’s a totally incorrect opinion. And I was there at the time.

I take your point, but I feel that you’re influenced by the people that were there and missing the focus on the ‘product’.

Rightly, you feel that the academy was run down to the point of non existence by those individuals, but that was recognised and actioned?

We’ve moved forward, quite considerably.