Re: Jake Daniels of Blackpool FC
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 7:02 pm
https://uptheclarets.com/messageboard/
https://uptheclarets.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62032
Totally agree, my brave sentiments are not from the fact he is being himself, but more towards the potential abuse he may get from idiots on social media and within stadiums when playing. Plus being 17 years old and now having such a media whirlwind around him, it is a brave step which he has taken in that sense.JarrowClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:20 pmI hate seeing the words he was brave to come out as gay it is disgusting that just being himself is seen as being brave, it isn’t it is plain old honesty. Good on him but nobody should care really straight, gay or whatever shouldn’t matter.
and therein lies the caveman thought process of an industry. There must be loads of gay footballers and they should be free to be whoever they want to be. If a Burnley player came out and it emerged another player was giving him grief I'd want the abuser sent packing straight away. You are there to play football and nothing else. Leave your ego's and opinions at the door or **** off !!CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:00 pmNothing against anyone that’s gay like absolutely crack on.
However professional footy is a kinda different atmosphere than the average work place.
Opinions welcomed
Because he wants to be open about who he is. You are right that your sexuality shouldn't matter but it does actually matter. Members of the LGBTQ+ community are frequently harassed, discriminated against, ridiculed and worse just because of that.Boss Hogg wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:03 pmMentioned it on the other thread but I’m not sure why anyone needs to know anyone else’s sexuality in this day and age unless it makes them feel better. I wonder if a club would dare not renew the contract of the first footballer to openly ‘come out’ if they aren’t deemed good enough at football. How many footballers have ‘come out’ as bisexual as I bet there are some but do they really need to ? As long as they do the job on the pitch does any of it matter and does anyone need to know ?
I think this sums up the problem, I don’t think there’d be any negativity or at least very very little yet there is this shark music that persists around homosexuality and football fans.
I never said a player of any team would be giving them grief at all, just said that they may not have the same camaraderie.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:09 pmand therein lies the caveman thought process of an industry. There must be loads of gay footballers and they should be free to be whoever they want to be. If a Burnley player came out and it emerged another player was giving him grief I'd want the abuser sent packing straight away. You are there to play football and nothing else. Leave your ego's and opinions at the door or **** off !!
I think we as fans need to actually be a bit braver too now. Start to self police a bit more and make the morons who feel the need to shout homophonic (or racist) abuse feel completely ostracised from the majority of us. Call them out, report them, challenge them and shout them down. We should be doing that en masse, whether it’s in the ground or on the message boards.claretburns wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:07 pmTotally agree, my brave sentiments are not from the fact he is being himself, but more towards the potential abuse he may get from idiots on social media and within stadiums when playing. Plus being 17 years old and now having such a media whirlwind around him, it is a brave step which he has taken in that sense.
It's discriminatory. It might come as a surprise but a) gay folks are pretty fond of silly nights out and b) gay men don't automatically want to shag every ither man they see in a shower.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:00 pmNothing against anyone that’s gay like absolutely crack on.
However professional footy is a kinda different atmosphere than the average work place.
The changing room is basically all men ba a physio or two and such is the nature of the industry/job/sport you’re going to have a close knit group.
Boys being boys (especially the younger ones) are going to have silly nights out stories and all the bravado that comes with it.
I can see how some players wouldn’t necessarily open up the same way to a team mate in knowledge that they were gay or whatever.
Is this discriminatory? Or is it just as is.
Opinions welcomed
I know to both them points.BabylonClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:21 pmIt's discriminatory. It might come as a surprise but a) gay folks are pretty fond of silly nights out and b) gay men don't automatically want to shag every ither man they see in a shower.
Wild accusations?ClaretTony wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:02 pmSorry - I knew this thread would take a down turn but I’m not having posters making wild accusations about mods.
I'm not saying the posters would overtly post homophobic abuse to someone who came out as gay.Penwortham_Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:15 pmI think this sums up the problem, I don’t think there’d be any negativity or at least very very little yet there is this shark music that persists around homosexuality and football fans.
You only have to read the thread on the Blackpool lad or go onto Twitter and it is overwhelmingly positive yet your perception is that to come out as gay on here would be met with negativity. This is no way a dig at you, I just find the narrative so hard to understand
Why is it? I have quite a lot of gay friendsCoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:23 pmI know to both them points.
But I’m just saying, average straight lad isn’t going to have the same rapport with a gay guy as the do a straight one. It’ll always be different.
To suggest otherwise is disingenuous
Don't think of this in terms of a person coming out for your sake or mine, but rather for their own sake. Let me elaborate on that. I know this is a big post but please do read it if you're sincere in asking the question above because I'm fairly certain my answer is right.Boss Hogg wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:48 pmI’m not really sure why anyone needs to know. I suppose if it makes that person feel better or they want to seek approval fair enough. It does seem a bit a bit like making a grand announcement that you are Vegan or something. Why does anyone need to know if someone is heterosexual, bisexual or trans ? It shouldn’t be anyone else’s business. I don’t need to know or want to know if our footballers are gay or something else I couldn’t care less and just want them to be good at football.
Quite the capacity for presumption. I can’t speak for Vegas, but I’m a straight male and yet some of my closest friends are gay males- in fact some of my closest mates are FEMALES! You’ll have to think againCoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:17 pm
Who’s your closest mates? Are they all straight males? Yup thought so.
This is the best post on this thread, and if the majority can start finding the confidence to call out any type of abuse, and know that their complaint will be firmly dealt with and not swept under the carpet, then we might finally rid the game and hopefully society of these prejudices which sadly still exist even in this era.Indecisive wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:17 pmI think we as fans need to actually be a bit braver too now. Start to self police a bit more and make the morons who feel the need to shout homophonic (or racist) abuse feel completely ostracised from the majority of us. Call them out, report them, challenge them and shout them down. We should be doing that en masse, whether it’s in the ground or on the message boards.
The nazi salutes the other day was horrendous and brought shame on all Burnley fans. None of us want to be associated with these cretins.
When people say individuals shouldn’t have to ‘come out’. In most cases it’s not a case of a grand coming out… it’s more finding the confidence to live their lives out in the open and feel accepted. Footballers currently know the minute they walk down the street holding a boyfriends hand it would cause a huge furore and be all over the papers. This lad is brave and confident enough to take a stand and be himself and break a stigma that I think 99% of us agree shouldn’t be there. Anyone who isn’t a 100% behind his actions are part of the problem, and should be ashamed.
I would say I have 7 closest mates of which 3 are openly gay, one of whom comes to Vegas and stays with me and the mrs every couple of years. A huge amount of the people I've worked with in the music industry are gay. All the cabin crew lads I know are gay.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:17 pmI never said a player of any team would be giving them grief at all, just said that they may not have the same camaraderie.
Who’s your closest mates? Are they all straight males? Yup thought so.
Football is different than the average job. These lads are going away sharing hotels and transport together. Pro sports is totally unique in that regard.
It’s not ‘caveman thoughts’ it’s reality.
Watch any UndrTheCosh podcast and that’s what it is.
This. This. This.Spiral wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:31 pmDon't think of this in terms of a person coming out for your sake or mine, but rather for their own sake. Let me elaborate on that. I know this is a big post but please do read it if you're sincere in asking the question above because I'm fairly certain my answer is right.
I'm straight, so my own sexuality, like that of most other people, coheres with the assumptions that are made about me by default. In a lot of places and social situations people generally are assumed to be straight until stated otherwise. Draw on your own experiences you've had with your lad mates throughout your life (going right back to school), the conversations and comments you've made and heard, for example, about the attractiveness of a particularly good looking woman, and notice the assumptions underlying those conversations and comments that by default assume the heterosexuality of every person in the group. If you want an example of an assumption being made, I'm doing it right now by assuming you are a man. These assumptions are almost always harmless, and made through little fault of the person making the assumption. It's perfectly normal human psychology to make assumptions about our environment, including the people in it. Our brains would be over-worked to doubt every sensory experience or piece of information received in the mind. Our propensity to assume things is selected for by evolution. It helps streamline thought, it makes thinking more efficient, but it comes with some small drawbacks from time to time.
I can't know what it feels like to be closeted or to come out, but if I try to empathise then I can envision it being far, far more relaxing to be around folk who aren't making incorrect assumptions about my very essence. This is one reason why a person would come out. Another reason, as it appears to me, is more significant — that is, to have total control over what people know and do not know about you. In the case of those remotely in the public eye, there's the possibility of being outed by someone with malicious intent, or by someone careless or clumsy with that piece of information etc. I can't imaging what it would feel like to be outed against my will, especially in environments and industries that have more macho (which is to say, tacitly homophobic) cultures. And so the reason why a gay person would come out publicly is to assume ownership and control over the way people find this out. It's about one's own power and privacy, and not yielding it or losing it to others.
A person coming out is not necessarily for our benefit, at least not primarily; it's about a gay person's own agency. We straight folk don't experience this agency being taken from us, because like I said above, our assumed and actual sexuality is aligned. We don't know what it feels like to have another person take control over what people know about us, nor can we know the day-to-day anxiety over having this power snatched from us.
Great post.Spiral wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:31 pmDon't think of this in terms of a person coming out for your sake or mine, but rather for their own sake. Let me elaborate on that. I know this is a big post but please do read it if you're sincere in asking the question above because I'm fairly certain my answer is right.
I'm straight, so my own sexuality, like that of most other people, coheres with the assumptions that are made about me by default. In a lot of places and social situations people generally are assumed to be straight until stated otherwise. Draw on your own experiences you've had with your lad mates throughout your life (going right back to school), the conversations and comments you've made and heard, for example, about the attractiveness of a particularly good looking woman, and notice the assumptions underlying those conversations and comments that by default assume the heterosexuality of every person in the group. If you want an example of an assumption being made, I'm doing it right now by assuming you are a man. These assumptions are almost always harmless, and made through little fault of the person making the assumption. It's perfectly normal human psychology to make assumptions about our environment, including the people in it. Our brains would be over-worked to doubt every sensory experience or piece of information received in the mind. Our propensity to assume things is selected for by evolution. It helps streamline thought, it makes thinking more efficient, but it comes with some small drawbacks from time to time.
I can't know what it feels like to be closeted or to come out, but if I try to empathise then I can envision it being far, far more relaxing to be around folk who aren't making incorrect assumptions about my very essence. This is one reason why a person would come out. Another reason, as it appears to me, is more significant — that is, to have total control over what people know and do not know about you. In the case of those remotely in the public eye, there's the possibility of being outed by someone with malicious intent, or by someone careless or clumsy with that piece of information etc. I can't imaging what it would feel like to be outed against my will, especially in environments and industries that have more macho (which is to say, tacitly homophobic) cultures. And so the reason why a gay person would come out publicly is to assume ownership and control over the way people find this out. It's about one's own power and privacy, and not yielding it or losing it to others.
A person coming out is not necessarily for our benefit, at least not primarily; it's about a gay person's own agency. We straight folk don't experience this agency being taken from us, because like I said above, our assumed and actual sexuality is aligned. We don't know what it feels like to have another person take control over what people know about us, nor can we know the day-to-day anxiety over having this power snatched from us.
The most pure, rational and best post I’ve ever seen on this forum.Spiral wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:31 pmDon't think of this in terms of a person coming out for your sake or mine, but rather for their own sake. Let me elaborate on that. I know this is a big post but please do read it if you're sincere in asking the question above because I'm fairly certain my answer is right.
I'm straight, so my own sexuality, like that of most other people, coheres with the assumptions that are made about me by default. In a lot of places and social situations people generally are assumed to be straight until stated otherwise. Draw on your own experiences you've had with your lad mates throughout your life (going right back to school), the conversations and comments you've made and heard, for example, about the attractiveness of a particularly good looking woman, and notice the assumptions underlying those conversations and comments that by default assume the heterosexuality of every person in the group. If you want an example of an assumption being made, I'm doing it right now by assuming you are a man. These assumptions are almost always harmless, and made through little fault of the person making the assumption. It's perfectly normal human psychology to make assumptions about our environment, including the people in it. Our brains would be over-worked to doubt every sensory experience or piece of information received in the mind. Our propensity to assume things is selected for by evolution. It helps streamline thought, it makes thinking more efficient, but it comes with some small drawbacks from time to time.
I can't know what it feels like to be closeted or to come out, but if I try to empathise then I can envision it being far, far more relaxing to be around folk who aren't making incorrect assumptions about my very essence. This is one reason why a person would come out. Another reason, as it appears to me, is more significant — that is, to have total control over what people know and do not know about you. In the case of those remotely in the public eye, there's the possibility of being outed by someone with malicious intent, or by someone careless or clumsy with that piece of information etc. I can't imaging what it would feel like to be outed against my will, especially in environments and industries that have more macho (which is to say, tacitly homophobic) cultures. And so the reason why a gay person would come out publicly is to assume ownership and control over the way people find this out. It's about one's own power and privacy, and not yielding it or losing it to others.
A person coming out is not necessarily for our benefit, at least not primarily; it's about a gay person's own agency. We straight folk don't experience this agency being taken from us, because like I said above, our assumed and actual sexuality is aligned. We don't know what it feels like to have another person take control over what people know about us, nor can we know the day-to-day anxiety over having this power snatched from us.
Possibly the best post on this board (Ok, not a great barometer but still!)Spiral wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:31 pmDon't think of this in terms of a person coming out for your sake or mine, but rather for their own sake. Let me elaborate on that. I know this is a big post but please do read it if you're sincere in asking the question above because I'm fairly certain my answer is right.
I'm straight, so my own sexuality, like that of most other people, coheres with the assumptions that are made about me by default. In a lot of places and social situations people generally are assumed to be straight until stated otherwise. Draw on your own experiences you've had with your lad mates throughout your life (going right back to school), the conversations and comments you've made and heard, for example, about the attractiveness of a particularly good looking woman, and notice the assumptions underlying those conversations and comments that by default assume the heterosexuality of every person in the group. If you want an example of an assumption being made, I'm doing it right now by assuming you are a man. These assumptions are almost always harmless, and made through little fault of the person making the assumption. It's perfectly normal human psychology to make assumptions about our environment, including the people in it. Our brains would be over-worked to doubt every sensory experience or piece of information received in the mind. Our propensity to assume things is selected for by evolution. It helps streamline thought, it makes thinking more efficient, but it comes with some small drawbacks from time to time.
I can't know what it feels like to be closeted or to come out, but if I try to empathise then I can envision it being far, far more relaxing to be around folk who aren't making incorrect assumptions about my very essence. This is one reason why a person would come out. Another reason, as it appears to me, is more significant — that is, to have total control over what people know and do not know about you. In the case of those remotely in the public eye, there's the possibility of being outed by someone with malicious intent, or by someone careless or clumsy with that piece of information etc. I can't imaging what it would feel like to be outed against my will, especially in environments and industries that have more macho (which is to say, tacitly homophobic) cultures. And so the reason why a gay person would come out publicly is to assume ownership and control over the way people find this out. It's about one's own power and privacy, and not yielding it or losing it to others.
A person coming out is not necessarily for our benefit, at least not primarily; it's about a gay person's own agency. We straight folk don't experience this agency being taken from us, because like I said above, our assumed and actual sexuality is aligned. We don't know what it feels like to have another person take control over what people know about us, nor can we know the day-to-day anxiety over having this power snatched from us.
Fair enough.
I wasn’t on the board yesterday but I did see that one of yours was removed because of your choice of appalling language.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:26 pmWild accusations?
His posts stayed up, while ones criticising him did not
Guess it must have been the usual one whenever Jakub posts eh?
Yeh that was my point really he shouldn’t need to be “BRAVE” nobody Should care about his sexuality. I agree that he has been extremely brave to come out at such a young age though.claretburns wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:07 pmTotally agree, my brave sentiments are not from the fact he is being himself, but more towards the potential abuse he may get from idiots on social media and within stadiums when playing. Plus being 17 years old and now having such a media whirlwind around him, it is a brave step which he has taken in that sense.
This isn’t about n=1 circumstances I’m just talking about the vast majority of the public.
Perhaps they just wish to be able to live without the burden of who they really are being hidden. Nobody’s announcing they’re heterosexual because it’s assumed as such, because that’s how society sees it.Boss Hogg wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:48 pmI’m not really sure why anyone needs to know. I suppose if it makes that person feel better or they want to seek approval fair enough. It does seem a bit a bit like making a grand announcement that you are Vegan or something. Why does anyone need to know if someone is heterosexual, bisexual or trans ? It shouldn’t be anyone else’s business. I don’t need to know or want to know if our footballers are gay or something else I couldn’t care less and just want them to be good at football.
A straight couple is getting married - do you think your more likely to see a gay man on the stag do or hen do?Darnhill Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:00 pmCool Claret I’m guessing is not a city dweller. His opinion, although a little behind the times is still relevant and to be respected as he speaks as he finds. Hopefully people continue to be more open minded as they journey through life.
It generally doesn't change much, apart from maybe the sexual stuff.BabylonClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:55 pmI'm genuinely curious here CC why do you think being gay changes the relationship you have with friends?
Your post is full of assumptions and whilst I agree behaviour can be different t in different situations (the classic not swearing in front of your mum) I'm not sure it's the sexuality of someone that really changes the behaviour?
And you literally said that the dressing room would be not the same
Cast back to being 21 or whatever.BabylonClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:55 pmI'm genuinely curious here CC why do you think being gay changes the relationship you have with friends?
Absolutely, but, in a male environment filled full of fit healthy young fellas that are doing well for themselves, what do you thinks going to be a huge topic of conversation?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:04 pmIt generally doesn't change much, apart from maybe the sexual stuff.
Other than that we're all the same people, same hopes, dreams, fears etc
Back to 21?CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 pmCast back to being 21 or whatever.
Lads are acting bravado swinging their dicks to see who’s the ‘alpha’ , there’s of course the bullshitters that are full of it etc talking about ‘birds’ and all the stuff you do at that age - ‘locker room talk’ and stuff, I just don’t think that a gay bloke would join in with that, nor would a woman.
Just like a bloke wouldn’t fit in when women are chatting about girl stuff, nor would they want to.
Well it would rather depend. I kinda assume if he's the groom's friend he would be on the stag?CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:03 pmA straight couple is getting married - do you think your more likely to see a gay man on the stag do or hen do?
Again, just to emphasise, I genuinely could not give a ******** what people get up to in their spare time (as long as it doesn’t infringe on another’s liberty/use someone as a means to an end) but I’m also not going to deny reality.
It's going to depend on the men let's be honest.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:09 pmAbsolutely, but, in a male environment filled full of fit healthy young fellas that are doing well for themselves, what do you thinks going to be a huge topic of conversation?
Because gay men tend to forge closer friendships with straight women than they do straight men.BabylonClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:13 pmWell it would rather depend. I kinda assume if he's the groom's friend he would be on the stag?
Why do you think it would be otherwise?
Seriously. Think about why. Question it.
That's because the women feel safer around the gay men and vice versa.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:16 pmBecause gay men tend to forge closer friendships with straight women than they do straight men.
Come on, everyone knows this.
There was gay men in my sixth form - a good one as well (g Clitheroe) when I attended around 2010.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:13 pmIt's going to depend on the men let's be honest.
As per my other comment, when I was 21 is very different to life for 21yr olds now.
Yes there will be groups of straight lads trying to out do each other in the who's the biggest alpha male stakes, but they're also more likely to know someone who's gay, Bi, trans etc so they may take that into consideration depending on their social circle