Leeds and Burnley v Everton

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Chester Perry
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sat May 21, 2022 3:21 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:09 pm
Particularly since they made no apparent efforts to sell players and also bought players/added to the squad - incidentally, players that scored against us in the home game.
They have been trying hard to get rid of a number of players for years now - the issue has been wages for many of them - plenty of suggestions that interested clubs were offering much reduced terms. This is why I believe that the difficulty in selling is not Covid market issues - Everton fans have been saying the same thing too

RVclaret
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by RVclaret » Sat May 21, 2022 3:24 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:21 pm
They have been trying hard to get rid of a number of players for years now - the issue has been wages for many of them - plenty of suggestions that interested clubs were offering much reduced terms. This is why I believe that the difficulty in selling is not Covid market issues - Everton fans have been saying the same thing too
So it’s their own fault for paying such ridiculously high wages that no one else can pay, right?

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sat May 21, 2022 3:26 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:24 pm
So it’s their own fault for paying such ridiculously high wages that no one else can pay, right?
Moshiri went all Peter Risdale at Leeds - it is well documented

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Conroy92 » Sat May 21, 2022 3:31 pm

Interesting. One thing is for sure, even if we get the points tomorrow and survive, we should still pursue this.
If clubs don't challenge things like this it will be allowed to continue.
The 88m re player sales claimed against COVID smells of "cooking the books" to me, especially considering they went out and signed players. Of course, they'll get away with it, but it's worth fighting against.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by NewClaret » Sat May 21, 2022 3:36 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:21 pm
They have been trying hard to get rid of a number of players for years now - the issue has been wages for many of them - plenty of suggestions that interested clubs were offering much reduced terms. This is why I believe that the difficulty in selling is not Covid market issues - Everton fans have been saying the same thing too
The problem is they’ve overpaid/offered too generous contracts to rubbish players. Nothing to do with COVID - there’s plenty of evidence that spending/average fee didn’t drop off sufficiently to justify a loss equivalent to their highest ever transfer profits.
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NewClaret
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by NewClaret » Sat May 21, 2022 3:54 pm

Interestingly, total transfer spend in 20 & 21 roughly the same as 15 & 16 (actually a lot higher) when Everton made just £3m & £8m profit from player sales.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sat May 21, 2022 4:17 pm

more information about the letter coming out across the media - this is the Telegraph

Leeds and Burnley demand Everton preserve all documents in financial breach row
Both relegation-threatened clubs are determined to pursue a legal case against Everton

By Sam Wallace, CHIEF FOOTBALL WRITER
21 May 2022 • 3:00pm

Burnley and Leeds United have underlined their determination to pursue a case against Everton for alleged financial breaches by requesting that the Premier League contact the Merseyside club and tell them to preserve all data and documents relating to income, transfers and commercial deals.

The two relegation-threatened clubs, who go into the final Premier League matchday knowing that one will go down, have demanded an independent commission to re-examine how Everton have passed financial regulations despite losses of £371.8 million over the last three years. Both clubs have vowed to back the other whatever Sunday’s outcome in any potential legal action against the Premier League and Everton.

Under Premier League rules, clubs are permitted to write-off losses of up to £105m every three years. Everton’s most recent accounts for the financial year ending June 31 last year were £120.9m, although the Premier League’s position is understood to be that it is satisfied that its own profit and sustainability [P&S] regulations have not been breached.

Although neither party has ever disclosed the details of that analysis it is understood that taking into account the deductions from the loss for spending permitted under P&S rules, the club meets its obligations. The Premier League received the joint-signatory letter from Leeds and Burnley last week and has made no public comment on the issue. It has indicated since Everton’s most recent financial results that it has no reason to believe that original calculations passing the accounts under P&S rules were erroneous.

The case against Everton is being driven by the ownership of both relegation-threatened clubs, the Leeds chairman and controlling shareholder Andrea Radrizzani and Burnley chairman Alan Pace. Both Burnley and Leeds want the Premier League to appoint an independent commission to investigate Everton’s finances. There is likely at some point soon to be public pressure to explain how Everton passed the P&S regulations.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by RVclaret » Sat May 21, 2022 4:22 pm

Quite a bit of noise about this now. From what I’ve seen from other clubs supporters on twitter etc, the majority support and encourage the stance we’ve taken.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sat May 21, 2022 4:27 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:22 pm
Quite a bit of noise about this now. From what I’ve seen from other clubs supporters on twitter etc, the majority support and encourage the stance we’ve taken.
it will be more interesting if other clubs join in the demands - for some it will just be good business sense as Everton could/should be a top half competitor

you would think Brentford, Brighton, Palace, Leicester, West Ham and Wolves (all not having questionable spending unlike Villa) would see strategic benefit from Everton being penalised in this way - also Norwich and Watford as it would help them should they return with clubs knowing rules are being properly applied

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by ClaretMov » Sat May 21, 2022 4:28 pm

It will all be sorted out after the season end's and the new season fixtures are out, Everton will have a few points taken off them for next season so it makes no difference you watch, the prem likes to look after the bigger boys

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Conroy92 » Sat May 21, 2022 4:33 pm

Although the supporters of clubs may be on our side, if it comes down to it, how many other clubs will side with us and how many with Everton?
Without knowing the ins and outs of other clubs finances (let alone our own :D ) I'd have thought nearly all of the club's in the league are posting losses, do any others come close to breaching the 105m loss over 3 seasons?

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Firthy » Sat May 21, 2022 4:55 pm

It's quite sad for Burnley and Leeds that it has come to this but if they've broke the FFP rules then they should be penalised otherwise having FFP is a waste of time. I'm sure the big clubs rig there books anyway.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Milltown1882 » Sat May 21, 2022 4:56 pm

ClaretMov wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:28 pm
It will all be sorted out after the season end's and the new season fixtures are out, Everton will have a few points taken off them for next season so it makes no difference you watch, the prem likes to look after the bigger boys
If City is anything to go by the whole thing will be quietly slipped under the carpet.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sat May 21, 2022 5:03 pm

Firthy wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:55 pm
It's quite sad for Burnley and Leeds that it has come to this but if they've broke the FFP rules then they should be penalised otherwise having FFP is a waste of time. I'm sure the big clubs rig there books anyway.
I suspect there has been lots of discussion about this between clubs at Premier League board meetings and they have not been impressed with the answers - this action by these clubs was the only way a definitive answer would be found

and if the Premier League refuse to investigate then we have a definitive answer - a deal will have been done that probably doesn't involve any of the three clubs but helps another more powerful club with what it is trying to hide. I base this on the inaction (measly fines)to the greedy six after the Super League episode (one that will be repeated in the future of that I am certain)

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by tiger76 » Sat May 21, 2022 5:08 pm

Firthy wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:55 pm
It's quite sad for Burnley and Leeds that it has come to this but if they've broke the FFP rules then they should be penalised otherwise having FFP is a waste of time. I'm sure the big clubs rig there books anyway.
FFP is meaningless if the PL aren't prepared to act, and on the present evidence I wouldn't hold out much hope they'll intervene in Everton's case.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by claretandy » Sat May 21, 2022 5:41 pm

The claim for damages is "up to 200m"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... ances.html

Chester Perry
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 pm

claretandy wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:41 pm
The claim for damages is "up to 200m"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... ances.html
That claim would be accepting that they would still be relegated

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Mattster » Sun May 22, 2022 8:50 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 5:54 pm
That claim would be accepting that they would still be relegated
I don't think that either ourselves or Leeds will think avoiding relegation is a realistic outcome here given the timeframes, if a points penalty was to be handed out (unlikely IMO) it would certainly come next season.

We'll both be hoping for a significant payout to soften the blow in the event of relegation. Pace will be thinking it could pay off the MSD loans if the worst was to happen.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Woonderbah » Sun May 22, 2022 12:26 pm

Due solely to covid, Newcastle and Villa wrote off £40m and £38m respectively so it's only right that Everton should explain why they wrote off a staggering £170m.
More pressing is the explanation why the Premier League seems happy to accept this figure.
It smells corrupt and gathering support from other clubs and there's a real possibility that next season's fixture announcements will be hampered by legal action.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Hipper » Sun May 22, 2022 1:14 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:12 pm
they may be right the Premier League refuses to answer any questions about it - it has all the indications of a parked investigation that has never been closed but is actually unofficially suspended
A bit like Julian Assange.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by NewClaret » Sun May 22, 2022 1:19 pm

Burnley & Leeds to meet the PL next week:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... ton-legal/

Seems the PL are digging their heels in that they have not breached the rules. Would like to see a statement from them to that effect, strange how they’re not being public about their position, eh?!

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sun May 22, 2022 1:22 pm

the media (or at least some parts are really starting to like this story, not least because it allows them to have a go at the Premier League's opaque approach - The Telegraph again

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... leagues%2F

Everton case threatens civil war fuelled by distrust in Premier League's regulatory robustness
Only publishing the profit and sustainability calculations for all 20 clubs will pass the public smell test and overcome scepticism

SAM WALLACE - CHIEF FOOTBALL WRITER
22 May 2022 • 8:00am

There will have to be a reckoning at some point, where the Premier League and its clubs decide that if they are to have viable financial fair play that can govern the vast wealth of the modern game, and that also passes the public smell test, then it will have to start publishing its calculations for all 20 clubs.

The case that Burnley and Leeds United are pursuing against Everton in the event on Sunday of one of the aforementioned being relegated is chiefly one built on distrust. Well-documented is Everton’s £371.8million losses over the last three years and the Premier League’s position, most recently in March when the club’s latest financial results were last published, that there was no breach of the profit and sustainability rules [PSR]. The problem is the scepticism at how that decision was reached.

What were the add-backs for permissible spending on training ground and stadium – as well as realistic verifiable losses through Covid - that allowed Everton to come in under its prescribed limits of £105million every three years? For a regulatory system to work it ultimately needs belief in its process to be strong enough to prevent the kind of civil war that now looms among 20 clubs who have been claiming for the past 12 months that they can function perfectly well without an independent regulator backed by legislation.

This latest development, a legal action threatened by an alliance of the potentially damned, certainly does much to undermine that assertion. The same transparency would go a long way to solving the fear and loathing that surrounds the long-running case of the Premier League investigation into Manchester City’s compliance with PSR that is now three years old. It is the case that no-one in any position of authority dare discuss, with good reason given the scope of the reversal over City inflicted on Uefa by the Court of Arbitration for Sport. Yet it goes to the very heart of the league – who wins, who loses and what can be achieved by a wealthy owner.

Everton might be less formidable opponents in court than City. It is interesting to note that no faction has yet teamed up to threaten legal action against City – despite the length of time the Premier League is taking to investigate. Indeed, City may well claim a fourth title in five years on Sunday, and presumably the second since this investigation began.

City may win their second title since the investigation into their finances began CREDIT: Kevin Quigley/NMC Pool
It goes without saying that, it should not just be Everton or City whose PSR compliance is open to public scrutiny but every one of the 17 clubs who finish above Burnley or Leeds, as well as the three that come up to join them. Fulham, Championship winners this season, announced losses in March of £93 million for the previous financial year. It had been £45.2million the year before that. Their own PSR calculation would be intriguing.

As ever, the clubs can change it in a single meeting. If 14 were to vote in favour of publishing the PSR calculations for all 20 clubs then everyone would be able to see them and make up their minds as to the efficacy of the current system. In an unfortunate choice of words in their statement on Friday, Everton said that it had worked “so closely” with the Premier League which does not sound like the kind of arm’s-length independence one would hope for from an independent regulator. No wrongdoing is suggested but it hardly helped the mood in a league where paranoia is rife.

Premier League clubs have always said that they want to be led decisively and independently. Their actions have suggested the opposite to be the case. The last chairman whom they did not like was chucked out discreetly at the end of last year. The reasons why a majority of 14 did not like Gary Hoffman have never been explained. It was said he upset them over the Premier League’s handling of the Saudi Arabia-backed consortium’s takeover of Newcastle United. Certainly his fate was not an incentive for his successor, whoever that might be, to take on the big beasts.

Likewise, there was no appetite to introduce laws that would stop clubs artificially inflating sponsorship deals from related parties – for instance commercial entities in the same ownership group – until the arrival on the scene of Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund. The overpaying of Abu Dhabi companies to sponsor Manchester City, including the airline Etihad, was the allegation raised against its ownership, which the club denies. Yet it took a Saudi takeover at Newcastle United for the clubs to leap into action almost immediately to close the loophole.

All Premier League clubs are different – different ambitions, different budgets, different owners. All of them view strong leadership differently. For the big six, it would be the right to do whatever they want with power of veto according to the conditions laid out in Project Big Picture in 2020. For the 14 outside the group it is the importance of the 14-vote democracy and not giving their income away to potential rivals lurking in the Football League. All of them tacitly acknowledge there has to be some degree of equality to keep the football interesting. Yet, alas, it is a fragile peace.

As things stand the Premier League could well go into next season with one of the 20 shareholders taking legal action against the league itself. Burnley and Leeds are said to have made a pact to support the other no matter which of them is relegated. Of course, any financial settlement between a relegated club and the Premier League would, in essence, be paid out of the broadcast revenue of the 20 clubs who are the league’s shareholders.

Burnley and Leeds, like the other 18 shareholders who make up the Premier League over their time in the top-flight, could have pushed for transparency long before they found themselves in this emergency. If that was the case it is unlikely that it would have reached this crisis point. Indeed, the clubs could pass the rule at the AGM next month. Given recent history, one suspects not.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sun May 22, 2022 3:25 pm

missed this earlier -but not surprised by what it says, it makes the above article more understandable - again from the Telegraph

Exclusive: Leeds and Burnley invited to meet Premier League bosses over Everton legal threat
The Premier League's position is understood to be that it is satisfied Everton have not been breached financial regulations

By Sam Wallace, CHIEF FOOTBALL WRITER
22 May 2022 • 11:53am

Burnley and Leeds United have been invited by the Premier League to send representatives to meet with chief executive Richard Masters this week, following the two relegation contenders’ threat to take legal action over allegations that Everton breached financial regulations.

The Premier League has written to the two clubs, who set out their initial observations on a potential legal case against the league and Everton, in a letter to Masters last week. The two clubs are now expected to come into the Premier League’s west London headquarters at some point this week to discuss their grievances and their demand that an independent commission examine the application of profit and sustainability rules (PSR) as they relate to Everton’s losses.

Either Burnley or Leeds will be relegated today with Everton’s dramatic victory over Crystal Palace on Thursday having secured their top-flight status.

Telegraph Sport has reported that both Burnley and Leeds, who have vowed to back one another whatever the outcome today, have requested that no data relating to Everton’s transfer dealings, and all income, including commercial, be destroyed.

Neither club would comment on whether they would be attending the meeting with Masters. Everton have passed PSR compliance despite losses of £371.8 million over the last three years. Under Premier League rules, clubs are permitted to write-off losses of up to £105m every three years.

Everton’s losses for the most recent financial year ending June 31 last year were £120.9m, and there was no announcement in March, when those were published, that the Premier League believed that materially changed the position in relation to PSR.

The Premier League’s position is understood to be that it is satisfied that its own profit and sustainability [P&S] regulations have not been breached.

Although neither party has ever disclosed the details of that analysis, it is understood that taking into account the deductions from the loss for spending permitted under P&S rules, the club meets its obligations. The Premier League received the joint-signatory letter from Leeds and Burnley last week and has made no public comment on the issue. It has indicated since Everton’s most recent financial results that it has no reason to believe that original calculations passing the accounts under P&S rules were erroneous.

The case against Everton is being driven by the ownership of both relegation-threatened clubs, the Leeds chairman and controlling shareholder Andrea Radrizzani and Burnley chairman Alan Pace.

The Premier League declined to comment.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by BurnleyFC » Sun May 22, 2022 3:36 pm

While we’re at it could we possibly ask the Premier League how they allowed Burnley FC to be purchased the way they were?
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 22, 2022 3:57 pm

Hmm! shredders working overtime at Goodison do you think. And yes there should also be serious questions about our new owners, and their supposed funds to run a PL club effectively.

Chester Perry
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sun May 22, 2022 4:15 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 3:57 pm
Hmm! shredders working overtime at Goodison do you think. And yes there should also be serious questions about our new owners, and their supposed funds to run a PL club effectively.
the funds were in the bank balance added to a commitment to not overspend - which we haven't done

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Conroy92 » Sun May 22, 2022 5:59 pm

Back to this then

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by joey13 » Sun May 22, 2022 6:01 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 3:36 pm
While we’re at it could we possibly ask the Premier League how they allowed Burnley FC to be purchased the way they were?
This

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by ElectroClaret » Sun May 22, 2022 6:06 pm

I'm guessing the Leeds solicitors might have suddenly lost interest in this case....

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sun May 22, 2022 6:20 pm

some very strange choice of posts to delete - I would love to know the reasoning

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by NewClaret » Sun May 22, 2022 6:24 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 6:20 pm
some very strange choice of posts to delete - I would love to know the reasoning
???

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Paul Waine » Sun May 22, 2022 6:31 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 6:20 pm
some very strange choice of posts to delete - I would love to know the reasoning
What have we missed, CP?

PS: Does Telegraph really think the of day of June is 31st? Or, just predictive text?

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Chester Perry » Sun May 22, 2022 7:57 pm

NewClaret wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 6:24 pm
???
My mistake I was looking for posts on the wrong thread and assumed with all the deletions going on that is what happened - apologies to all concerned
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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by Conroy92 » Mon May 23, 2022 12:35 pm

So, while this avenue might not save us from relegation, we could end up with a big payout which will certainly help us. Still worth pursuing.

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by bfcjg » Mon May 23, 2022 12:45 pm

Could the court of arbitration for sport get involved ?
https://www.fifa.com/legal/court-of-arb ... -for-sport

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Re: Leeds and Burnley v Everton

Post by dsr » Mon May 23, 2022 12:50 pm

One point made somewhere (might be in that Daily Telegraph accont which I haven't re-read) was that Everton claim to have worked very closely with the PL to ensure their figures were OK. Which begs the question, how can the regulators be true regulators if they have worked with the people they are supposed to be regulation?

If the PL were involved in cooking the books and telling Everton how to cook them, then BFC have the makings of a case. And that of course is why they don't want the PL and Everton to start destroying emails.

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