McNeil

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: McNeil

Post by RVclaret » Mon May 23, 2022 2:37 pm

Assists are what fans instantly look at to chuck about. xA, dangerous passes into specific zones (which he is at a league high in, posted the chart on another thread), dribbles completed - stats which clubs scouts and analysts will look at. As spice said, the balls to Collins yesterday and to Weghorst v Wolves, won't be labelled 'assists' but they were the defence splitting passes that led to them.

boyyanno
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 7:25 pm
Been Liked: 498 times
Has Liked: 114 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boyyanno » Mon May 23, 2022 2:38 pm

claretspice wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 2:31 pm
"Biased". Good grief.

I've quoted objective measures of performance which don't bear out your logic. I agree that, historically, he got plenty of assists playing down the left hand side. I've also explained why I think that has dried up. And I'm not saying he should absolutely play centrally - I'd certainly like to try see him used as a 10, but I'm also fine with him drifting from the right hand side.

If you think he'd be better off playing off the left a la Beckham - no problem at all. I disagree because I think the game has moved on in the last 20 years, but perfectly respect that opinion. What I take issue with is the insistence of some of our supporters in belittling his contribution this season by reference to skewed statistics. They could just as easily reference that 2 of the last 3 goals we've scored from open play this season at home (Wolves and yesterday) have been created by passes one back from the assist from McNeil - one to Weghorst, one to Collins. Those were really the passes that created the goal; why ignore them in favour of focusing on the fact that statistically, he's only got one assist all season? Only you know.
Yes you are biased, you comment on every McNeil thread banging the drum that he will be best in the centre of the pitch. Despite there being not a shred of evidence to suggest its the case. The evidence suggests he's at his best on the left.

The expected assists and goals stat is just drivel though, how does it show the chance he had the other week where he could have scored or squared it but did neither?

Ultimately goals and assists and performances are what McNeil will be judged on, and they have been lacking. Do you want to know when they weren't? When he was playing on the left A la David Beckham.

burnleymik
Posts: 5038
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1162 times
Has Liked: 2899 times

Re: McNeil

Post by burnleymik » Mon May 23, 2022 2:47 pm

McNeil has it for sure. Really looking forward to seeing how he develops under a new manager.

claretspice
Posts: 5660
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:13 am
Been Liked: 2801 times
Has Liked: 138 times

Re: McNeil

Post by claretspice » Mon May 23, 2022 3:28 pm

boyyanno wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 2:38 pm
Yes you are biased, you comment on every McNeil thread banging the drum that he will be best in the centre of the pitch. Despite there being not a shred of evidence to suggest its the case. The evidence suggests he's at his best on the left.

The expected assists and goals stat is just drivel though, how does it show the chance he had the other week where he could have scored or squared it but did neither?

Ultimately goals and assists and performances are what McNeil will be judged on, and they have been lacking. Do you want to know when they weren't? When he was playing on the left A la David Beckham.
Blimey. My main contention with McNeil is that he's getting an unfair rap. I have a personal view that he's grown beyond the left flank, but that's not my main point at all. The reason I raise it is that there are explanations why he's been less effective on the left this season than previous. I've also said that I think he's had a poorer season this time than previously.

I said last night I was done with trying to defend that point of view here, and I ought to follow my own advice. But I think it's regrettable when people use highly selective stats to frame their criticism of him. Ultimately, you're rejecting a particular stat as "drivel" just because it doesn't suit your narrative; it's not a perfect stat and I said that at the outset, but to reject it outright as being at all indicative suggests that if anyone is refusing to look at this objectively, it's you. And that chance the other week? Presume it's the one against Villa, when he made the chance himself, and might have squared to Barnes had he not hidden himself behind the defender. Should have done better though with his finish though, no question about it.

boyyanno
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 7:25 pm
Been Liked: 498 times
Has Liked: 114 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boyyanno » Mon May 23, 2022 4:01 pm

claretspice wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 3:28 pm
Blimey. My main contention with McNeil is that he's getting an unfair rap. I have a personal view that he's grown beyond the left flank, but that's not my main point at all. The reason I raise it is that there are explanations why he's been less effective on the left this season than previous. I've also said that I think he's had a poorer season this time than previously.

I said last night I was done with trying to defend that point of view here, and I ought to follow my own advice. But I think it's regrettable when people use highly selective stats to frame their criticism of him. Ultimately, you're rejecting a particular stat as "drivel" just because it doesn't suit your narrative; it's not a perfect stat and I said that at the outset, but to reject it outright as being at all indicative suggests that if anyone is refusing to look at this objectively, it's you. And that chance the other week? Presume it's the one against Villa, when he made the chance himself, and might have squared to Barnes had he not hidden himself behind the defender. Should have done better though with his finish though, no question about it.
But I don't think I've given McNeil an unfair rap at all. I was initially responding to a poster who said anyone who thinks McNeil should play on the left knows nothing about football.

I accept people may have the opinion that he could play elsewhere, but quite frankly the stats would completely disagree with that. That's why I asked the poster to substantiate his claim, because he can't, and if I'm honest neither can you. For the record I suspect it's not only the stats that show that poster up, but also if you looked at the player ratings McNeil has received throughout his last 3 years, you'd find that the general opinion is he has been at his best on the Left hand side playing that simple game that I've made reference too time and time again.

So that would make the posters claims nonsense, which is exactly what I said.
This user liked this post: gawthorpe_view

elwaclaret
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:57 am
Been Liked: 1984 times
Has Liked: 2873 times

Re: McNeil

Post by elwaclaret » Mon May 23, 2022 4:10 pm

McNiel’s major downfall is that he switches off out of possession. It made us soft defending the left…. Time and time again the opposition exploited it and it cost us far more goals than McNeil created.

Anyone championing McNeil I can only assume ‘ball watches’ through games, his team ethic is awful at times.

IanMcL
Posts: 30123
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 6340 times
Has Liked: 8651 times

Re: McNeil

Post by IanMcL » Mon May 23, 2022 4:21 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 8:43 am
Why is it only left footed players who are deemed to be too one footed? Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard all grand, left footers…. Oh he’s too one footed.
It is the manoeuvre he does, which make him susceptible to getting caught. Even one footed players do use their other foot!

IanMcL
Posts: 30123
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 6340 times
Has Liked: 8651 times

Re: McNeil

Post by IanMcL » Mon May 23, 2022 4:22 pm

helmclaret wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 7:58 am
Paul Cook.

One footed and one of the most cultured central midfielders I seen play for us.
Yes. See abovr

Cirrus_Minor
Posts: 4394
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:20 pm
Been Liked: 1156 times
Has Liked: 1282 times

Re: McNeil

Post by Cirrus_Minor » Mon May 23, 2022 4:25 pm

For me he is a left winger and due to lack of central midfield players with any real quality at the club has been shunted around out of position. The failure to utilise him effectively in false positions is more due to squad depth weakness.
Whether he stays of leaves he is potentially a very good player and has proven so in previous seasons.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: McNeil

Post by RVclaret » Mon May 23, 2022 4:27 pm

Name me another 3 wingers in the PL / top European team that plays on their ‘correct’ side according to their strongest foot.

superdimitri
Posts: 4936
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:04 pm
Been Liked: 1005 times
Has Liked: 725 times

Re: McNeil

Post by superdimitri » Tue May 24, 2022 8:06 am

I love watching him play. If we keep him we need to build around him.

Leisure
Posts: 18467
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:47 pm
Been Liked: 3771 times
Has Liked: 12359 times

Re: McNeil

Post by Leisure » Tue May 24, 2022 8:13 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 4:10 pm
his team ethic is awful at times.
As is his body language!
These 2 users liked this post: longsidepies elwaclaret

Murger
Posts: 4206
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:55 pm
Been Liked: 1235 times
Has Liked: 844 times

Re: McNeil

Post by Murger » Tue May 24, 2022 8:24 am

I've never seen a greedier player in a Burnley shirt.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: McNeil

Post by RVclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 8:37 am

Murger wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 8:24 am
I've never seen a greedier player in a Burnley shirt.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

rats
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:24 pm
Been Liked: 7 times

Re: McNeil

Post by rats » Tue May 24, 2022 9:07 am

Jepson liked to eat🤣

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: McNeil

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 9:11 am

boyyanno wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 2:38 pm
Yes you are biased, you comment on every McNeil thread banging the drum that he will be best in the centre of the pitch. Despite there being not a shred of evidence to suggest its the case. The evidence suggests he's at his best on the left.

The expected assists and goals stat is just drivel though, how does it show the chance he had the other week where he could have scored or squared it but did neither?

Ultimately goals and assists and performances are what McNeil will be judged on, and they have been lacking. Do you want to know when they weren't? When he was playing on the left A la David Beckham.
Hasn't he played on the left for the vast majority of the season?

kenyon6923
Posts: 347
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:20 pm
Been Liked: 31 times

Re: McNeil

Post by kenyon6923 » Tue May 24, 2022 9:19 am

Premier League Record

Appearances 134
Goals 7
Assists 17

Overrated for me, the poor man's Deli Ali, had 1-2 good seasons and typically overhyped being in a bang average town club, very good players produce when their team needs them to, we got relegated and he scored zero goals.

boyyanno
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 7:25 pm
Been Liked: 498 times
Has Liked: 114 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boyyanno » Tue May 24, 2022 9:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:11 am
Hasn't he played on the left for the vast majority of the season?
I think people forget that McNeil has been with us for over 3 years now. He's had a pretty crappy season from the left, and from the right, and anywhere else he's played this year. That doesn't change the fact that he's been at his best historically for us when playing that simple role on the left swinging balls in. He stopped playing that role months ago, due to either tactics, forwards that don't attack the ball as well as they used too, confidence, the list of reasons could be debated on here for months. But I still maintain that he's been at his best in his career with us as a traditional winger on the left.

If we play McNeil on the left and don't ask him to whip balls in then we mightaswell drop him to be honest. Yes he's been better on the right this season than the left (probably) but that's because he's playing a completely different role to the one he excels in/has excelled in for us in the past.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: McNeil

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 9:37 am

boyyanno wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:31 am
I think people forget that McNeil has been with us for over 3 years now. He's had a pretty crappy season from the left, and from the right, and anywhere else he's played this year. That doesn't change the fact that he's been at his best historically for us when playing that simple role on the left swinging balls in. He stopped playing that role months ago, due to either tactics, forwards that don't attack the ball as well as they used too, confidence, the list of reasons could be debated on here for months. But I still maintain that he's been at his best in his career with us as a traditional winger on the left.

If we play McNeil on the left and don't ask him to whip balls in then we mightaswell drop him to be honest. Yes he's been better on the right this season than the left (probably) but that's because he's playing a completely different role to the one he excels in/has excelled in for us in the past.
I don't know why he's stopped doing what he was really good at, but he's certainly not done it this year

But I disagree with your argument with Spice about him in the middle or as a No 10. I think he'd do really well there

boatshed bill
Posts: 15107
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3137 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boatshed bill » Tue May 24, 2022 9:40 am

I have no idea what's happened to McNeil, but I can't help but think that the arrival of Cornet, and the interest in Orsic have some connection.
Could be rubbish, I accept that.

buzzclarets79
Posts: 666
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 2:05 am
Been Liked: 227 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: McNeil

Post by buzzclarets79 » Tue May 24, 2022 9:41 am

Would absolutely love McNeil to stay with us, I’ve no doubt that with the right manager in place he would flourish in the championship.
All that attacking talent he had when he first burst onto the scene hasn’t been lost it’s simply been locked away, give him license to get forward and affect the game.
If McNeil and Cornet stays we’d certainly have two good wingers for the championship. Add that to hopefully Roberts, Collins, Mee & Taylor at the back we are only a few signings in my opinion to having a top 6 challenging side.
This user liked this post: alwaysaclaret

boyyanno
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 7:25 pm
Been Liked: 498 times
Has Liked: 114 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boyyanno » Tue May 24, 2022 9:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:37 am
I don't know why he's stopped doing what he was really good at, but he's certainly not done it this year

But I disagree with your argument with Spice about him in the middle or as a No 10. I think he'd do really well there
It's not that I don't think he will do well there, I think some of his attributes naturally lend itself to that position. My initial response was to another poster that said if you didn't think McNeils best position is on the RH/S then you know nothing about football. I disagree with that, in my opinion and on current evidence so far I'd say the left hand side in that traditional role is the one I'd want him playing in.

I can appreciate some people think his best position might be down the middle, but until he's used their successfully and that opinion is proven I'd have him on the left knocking in balls every single time.

As for the RH/S, you'd ideally want an inverted winger to cut in on to their stronger foot to offer a goal threat, that's the biggest weakness in his game at the moment in my opinion and one of the reasons I'd have him on the left swinging them in than on the right not scoring or assisting.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

alwaysaclaret
Posts: 1362
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:51 am
Been Liked: 234 times
Has Liked: 420 times

Re: McNeil

Post by alwaysaclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 9:52 am

To be fair to him as lots have said, he's been shunted around purely to cover the injury situation and lack of Premier league ready squad depth this season, he is a confidence player I believe, but one I believe we should pull out all the stops to keep him cos he will be excellent in the championship, however he's defensive duties have let him down this season and a perfect example for me was the buendia goal at villa had he have tracked him when he started he's run from the centre circle we would have had 3 pts instead of one.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: McNeil

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 9:54 am

boyyanno wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:48 am
It's not that I don't think he will do well there, I think some of his attributes naturally lend itself to that position. My initial response was to another poster that said if you didn't think McNeils best position is on the RH/S then you know nothing about football. I disagree with that, in my opinion and on current evidence so far I'd say the left hand side in that traditional role is the one I'd want him playing in.

I can appreciate some people think his best position might be down the middle, but until he's used their successfully and that opinion is proven I'd have him on the left knocking in balls every single time.

As for the RH/S, you'd ideally want an inverted winger to cut in on to their stronger foot to offer a goal threat, that's the biggest weakness in his game at the moment in my opinion and one of the reasons I'd have him on the left swinging them in than on the right not scoring or assisting.
I think we need more than just wingers and full backs banging crossing in (even though when it works its a joy to see), and to do that, I think we really do need to think more about no longer having the 4-4-2 as the default system

Be interesting to see what a new manager brings tbh

boyyanno
Posts: 1613
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 7:25 pm
Been Liked: 498 times
Has Liked: 114 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boyyanno » Tue May 24, 2022 10:00 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 9:54 am
I think we need more than just wingers and full backs banging crossing in (even though when it works its a joy to see), and to do that, I think we really do need to think more about no longer having the 4-4-2 as the default system

Be interesting to see what a new manager brings tbh
Yep I agree with that and I think traditional wingers are definitely more suited to the rigid 442 that we used to play under Dyche. I'm looking forward to seeing a new approach and I just hope that whatever happens we manage to get the best out of McNeil because if we can get the best out of him then he should tear the Championship a new one.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Rileybobs
Posts: 16681
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:37 pm
Been Liked: 6891 times
Has Liked: 1471 times
Location: Leeds

Re: McNeil

Post by Rileybobs » Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 am

I've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: McNeil

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 10:10 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 am
I've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
Think that formation will also suit Weghorst as well

boatshed bill
Posts: 15107
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3137 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: McNeil

Post by boatshed bill » Tue May 24, 2022 10:10 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 am
I've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
If the whole team was capable of playing further up the pitch, might help.
We've been too slow at the back to do this in recent seasons.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: McNeil

Post by RVclaret » Tue May 24, 2022 10:11 am

Rileybobs wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 am
I've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
You're right. With Cornet on one side and another, similar type on the other, he'd be great centrally. Nothing wrong with coming deep to pick up the ball either, very much helps with ball retention and playing through the midfield, Hendrick was good at it during the '7th' season.

IanMcL
Posts: 30123
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 6340 times
Has Liked: 8651 times

Re: McNeil

Post by IanMcL » Tue May 24, 2022 10:59 am

Lost his way and helped in that cause.

Post Reply