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Yes you are biased, you comment on every McNeil thread banging the drum that he will be best in the centre of the pitch. Despite there being not a shred of evidence to suggest its the case. The evidence suggests he's at his best on the left.claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 2:31 pm"Biased". Good grief.
I've quoted objective measures of performance which don't bear out your logic. I agree that, historically, he got plenty of assists playing down the left hand side. I've also explained why I think that has dried up. And I'm not saying he should absolutely play centrally - I'd certainly like to try see him used as a 10, but I'm also fine with him drifting from the right hand side.
If you think he'd be better off playing off the left a la Beckham - no problem at all. I disagree because I think the game has moved on in the last 20 years, but perfectly respect that opinion. What I take issue with is the insistence of some of our supporters in belittling his contribution this season by reference to skewed statistics. They could just as easily reference that 2 of the last 3 goals we've scored from open play this season at home (Wolves and yesterday) have been created by passes one back from the assist from McNeil - one to Weghorst, one to Collins. Those were really the passes that created the goal; why ignore them in favour of focusing on the fact that statistically, he's only got one assist all season? Only you know.
Blimey. My main contention with McNeil is that he's getting an unfair rap. I have a personal view that he's grown beyond the left flank, but that's not my main point at all. The reason I raise it is that there are explanations why he's been less effective on the left this season than previous. I've also said that I think he's had a poorer season this time than previously.boyyanno wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 2:38 pmYes you are biased, you comment on every McNeil thread banging the drum that he will be best in the centre of the pitch. Despite there being not a shred of evidence to suggest its the case. The evidence suggests he's at his best on the left.
The expected assists and goals stat is just drivel though, how does it show the chance he had the other week where he could have scored or squared it but did neither?
Ultimately goals and assists and performances are what McNeil will be judged on, and they have been lacking. Do you want to know when they weren't? When he was playing on the left A la David Beckham.
But I don't think I've given McNeil an unfair rap at all. I was initially responding to a poster who said anyone who thinks McNeil should play on the left knows nothing about football.claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 3:28 pmBlimey. My main contention with McNeil is that he's getting an unfair rap. I have a personal view that he's grown beyond the left flank, but that's not my main point at all. The reason I raise it is that there are explanations why he's been less effective on the left this season than previous. I've also said that I think he's had a poorer season this time than previously.
I said last night I was done with trying to defend that point of view here, and I ought to follow my own advice. But I think it's regrettable when people use highly selective stats to frame their criticism of him. Ultimately, you're rejecting a particular stat as "drivel" just because it doesn't suit your narrative; it's not a perfect stat and I said that at the outset, but to reject it outright as being at all indicative suggests that if anyone is refusing to look at this objectively, it's you. And that chance the other week? Presume it's the one against Villa, when he made the chance himself, and might have squared to Barnes had he not hidden himself behind the defender. Should have done better though with his finish though, no question about it.
It is the manoeuvre he does, which make him susceptible to getting caught. Even one footed players do use their other foot!dandeclaret wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 8:43 amWhy is it only left footed players who are deemed to be too one footed? Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard all grand, left footers…. Oh he’s too one footed.
Yes. See abovrhelmclaret wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:58 amPaul Cook.
One footed and one of the most cultured central midfielders I seen play for us.
As is his body language!
Hasn't he played on the left for the vast majority of the season?boyyanno wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 2:38 pmYes you are biased, you comment on every McNeil thread banging the drum that he will be best in the centre of the pitch. Despite there being not a shred of evidence to suggest its the case. The evidence suggests he's at his best on the left.
The expected assists and goals stat is just drivel though, how does it show the chance he had the other week where he could have scored or squared it but did neither?
Ultimately goals and assists and performances are what McNeil will be judged on, and they have been lacking. Do you want to know when they weren't? When he was playing on the left A la David Beckham.
I think people forget that McNeil has been with us for over 3 years now. He's had a pretty crappy season from the left, and from the right, and anywhere else he's played this year. That doesn't change the fact that he's been at his best historically for us when playing that simple role on the left swinging balls in. He stopped playing that role months ago, due to either tactics, forwards that don't attack the ball as well as they used too, confidence, the list of reasons could be debated on here for months. But I still maintain that he's been at his best in his career with us as a traditional winger on the left.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:11 amHasn't he played on the left for the vast majority of the season?
I don't know why he's stopped doing what he was really good at, but he's certainly not done it this yearboyyanno wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:31 amI think people forget that McNeil has been with us for over 3 years now. He's had a pretty crappy season from the left, and from the right, and anywhere else he's played this year. That doesn't change the fact that he's been at his best historically for us when playing that simple role on the left swinging balls in. He stopped playing that role months ago, due to either tactics, forwards that don't attack the ball as well as they used too, confidence, the list of reasons could be debated on here for months. But I still maintain that he's been at his best in his career with us as a traditional winger on the left.
If we play McNeil on the left and don't ask him to whip balls in then we mightaswell drop him to be honest. Yes he's been better on the right this season than the left (probably) but that's because he's playing a completely different role to the one he excels in/has excelled in for us in the past.
It's not that I don't think he will do well there, I think some of his attributes naturally lend itself to that position. My initial response was to another poster that said if you didn't think McNeils best position is on the RH/S then you know nothing about football. I disagree with that, in my opinion and on current evidence so far I'd say the left hand side in that traditional role is the one I'd want him playing in.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:37 amI don't know why he's stopped doing what he was really good at, but he's certainly not done it this year
But I disagree with your argument with Spice about him in the middle or as a No 10. I think he'd do really well there
I think we need more than just wingers and full backs banging crossing in (even though when it works its a joy to see), and to do that, I think we really do need to think more about no longer having the 4-4-2 as the default systemboyyanno wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:48 amIt's not that I don't think he will do well there, I think some of his attributes naturally lend itself to that position. My initial response was to another poster that said if you didn't think McNeils best position is on the RH/S then you know nothing about football. I disagree with that, in my opinion and on current evidence so far I'd say the left hand side in that traditional role is the one I'd want him playing in.
I can appreciate some people think his best position might be down the middle, but until he's used their successfully and that opinion is proven I'd have him on the left knocking in balls every single time.
As for the RH/S, you'd ideally want an inverted winger to cut in on to their stronger foot to offer a goal threat, that's the biggest weakness in his game at the moment in my opinion and one of the reasons I'd have him on the left swinging them in than on the right not scoring or assisting.
Yep I agree with that and I think traditional wingers are definitely more suited to the rigid 442 that we used to play under Dyche. I'm looking forward to seeing a new approach and I just hope that whatever happens we manage to get the best out of McNeil because if we can get the best out of him then he should tear the Championship a new one.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:54 amI think we need more than just wingers and full backs banging crossing in (even though when it works its a joy to see), and to do that, I think we really do need to think more about no longer having the 4-4-2 as the default system
Be interesting to see what a new manager brings tbh
Think that formation will also suit Weghorst as wellRileybobs wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 amI've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
If the whole team was capable of playing further up the pitch, might help.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 amI've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
You're right. With Cornet on one side and another, similar type on the other, he'd be great centrally. Nothing wrong with coming deep to pick up the ball either, very much helps with ball retention and playing through the midfield, Hendrick was good at it during the '7th' season.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:07 amI've been thinking whether McNeil could play in the number 10 role, or even on the right of a front three. Both sound good in principle but the more I think about it the more I'm not sure. McNeil likes to pick up the ball extremely deep, it's one of the reasons that he fails to affect games regularly. He's often dropping into our own half to get on the ball rather than finding pockets of space behind the opposition midfield. Perhaps if the whole team were playing higher up the pitch we would see a different player. He could probably play centrally in a 4-2-3-1 system with more direct players flanking a striker.
