Did we overthink it instead of just going for it ?

We gambled on sticking with an inexperienced manager, following a promising new manager ‘bounce’. It came back to bite us on the arse.

Never quite seen anything like Raya ( ex rovers) GK donating Leeds a goal and then laughing about it. Very strange

Ash Barnes ie spot on with his conspiracy theory

They did indeed go to win, but if we'd have done the same it wouldn't have mattered a jot, that's what is so damned annoying, it was in our hands and we bottled it I'm afraid.

We didn't appear to be set up to win the game, certainly.

I couldn't discern any attempt to win the game until it was all over bar the shouting.

It was a crushing disappointment to go out with a whimper like that.

Here's to hopefully bringing in a new manager early and making the right choice. It is the decision everything else rests upon.

Look at our starting line up and formation

Inexperience of our management team cost us I'm afraid

Not that I agree with the line up per se, but I don’t think the idea to go out to draw the first half and assess what was going on at Brentford was a bad idea. Obviously Collins’ ridiculously stupid hand ball totally scuppered that plan - and despite changing to a more offensive lineup at the break we conceded fairly early in the second half and the rest is history.

I don’t think going out to attack Newcastle early would have been a great idea considering the pace they had available on the break.

There was a feeling that Brentford would beat Leeds. Leeds had lost 3, drawn 1 in last four games, but these against Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea , Brighton. Their record v mid table sides has been good so Brentford was very winnable

Bottom line e for us was conceding early. We've not reacted well to early goals all season

FCBurnley wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:21 pm

Never quite seen anything like Raya ( ex rovers) GK donating Leeds a goal and then laughing about it. Very strange

Colleague of mine commented on Brentford’s lack of desire to win.. I was on the Turf so didn’t see any of it.

I think it’s pretty likely that Brentford would have got a result if they weren’t down to 9 men for a significant period of the game.

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:50 pm

I think it’s pretty likely that Brentford would have got a result if they weren’t down to 9 men for a significant period of the game.

When did they go down to 9 men? They had 1 player sent off in the 80th minute.

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 7:02 pm

When did they go down to 9 men? They had 1 player sent off in the 80th minute.

Ajer went off injured and they’d already used 3 subs

Milltown1882 wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 7:03 pm

Ajer went off injured and they’d already used 3 subs

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification

We started with 5 defenders and played not to lose. It was in our hands and we should have gone all out for the win. Unfortunately we didn't and I'm afraid we deserved what we got on the day.

Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:40 pm

Look at our starting line up and formation

Inexperience of our management team cost us I'm afraid

It cost us the game for sure. That inexperience was there to see against Villa, so no surprise really. Far too late to mess about with things - we should have put square pegs in square holes. It didn't look like we went out to win the game, just not lose it, and that cost us.

Having said that, to get to the last game and still be in with a chance of staying up was a superb effort after the debacle at Norwich.

My take on this is that Leeds have had a lets go out and score more goals than the other team mentality instilled into them by Bielsa whereas the Clarets have been shackled by the "framework" for the previous nine years. Remember how crap we are at winner-takes-all cup ties?
Same situation as yesterday basically we had to knock Newcastle out.

Add in the immense luck that Leeds had, a gifted goal/penalty, Brentford going down to nine men and a lucky deflected late winner all helped to create our demise.

bobinho wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 7:28 pm

It cost us the game for sure. That inexperience was there to see against Villa, so no surprise really. Far too late to mess about with things - we should have put square pegs in square holes. It didn't look like we went out to win the game, just not lose it, and that cost us.

Having said that, to get to the last game and still be in with a chance of staying up was a superb effort after the debacle at Norwich.

Absolutely they deserve tremendous credit for taking it to the last game

That what is so annoying,if we had lost 4-3 or similar at least we would have given it a go we should have attacked with passion from the first minute the team talk and set up must have really been a downer in the changing room.

The reason I was so fuming when I came off the game was the manner of the defeat. When in recent years have you heard a crowd like that on the turf when they came out and yet we failed to muster a single meaningful attack in the first half.

When I saw our bench and the limited options available yesterday I feared the worst. In no way would I criticise MJ, I think he's done a brilliant job and he's not been frightened to call the changes both in formation and personnel, but yesterday when the chips were down I think he was severely restricted to make effective changes during the game.

SmudgetheClaret wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:12 pm

Did we overthink it instead of just going for it ?

I had split screen so watched both games. If we were playing Brentford we would have won - well and truly on the beach, put in a 4/10 performance. Erikson was non existent.

Leeds deserved to win but Brentford were abysmal

FCBurnley wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 6:21 pm

Never quite seen anything like Raya ( ex rovers) GK donating Leeds a goal and then laughing about it. Very strange

I thought exactly the same !

I thought for the first 10-15 minutes Newcastle didn't really seem to be up for it, but we sat so deep we allowed them to play the ball around and create chances. Then the penalty happened. At that point it seemed to change and they wanted to win.

Maybe if we had come out all guns blazing and managed to get them on the back foot early, especially with the noise of that crowd, things could have been very different.

It was a very difficult choice to make and I can see why MJ did it, but ultimately it meant us creating almost nothing first half and still being behind.

I compare MJ to a tail-end batsman chasing a big score down. When it doesn’t look like you can win, they often swing the bat and score boundaries without pressure.

As soon as they get close to winning, the pressure mounts and they go far more defensive.

MJ started out attacking but the pressure got to him.

Whilst the comment above about our tame first half display is correct, Roberts twice had the opportunity in space to find a free on rushing Cornet in the middle and failed both times, annoying to say the least.

I think we got the team selection wrong, and the tactics, but it's water under the bridge now.

I don't get your comment that Leeds went to win. Brentford had all the chances 1st half. Leeds score with a penalty, not arguing with the decision just it's typical. Brentford are then reduced to 10 men for 20+mins, because they've used all the subs. Still manage to equalise, then get reduced to 9 through a stupid second yellow, when the first was given for taking his shirt off when equalising. You look at the Wolves game, 2 down, Wolves get a man sent off for nothing, then Leeds win it in the 95th min. They've had that kind of luck all season, and still only scraped to safety.
So no, Leeds didn't simply go to win, they just ragged another. Before anyone accuses me of sour grapes, it wouldn't have mattered if they ragged another, if we had done our job, so not complaining about relegation, just take exception to someone claiming Leeds did anything extra in order to win

I'd have gone back to a more attacking formation from the off, but it's easy in hindsight. What I do know is that Mike Jackson seems like a good coach and a decent man, and we need to keep hold of him, even if it's for the under 23s

Plus it's easy "going for the win" when the opposition gifts you a goal, then goes down to 9 men out of pure stupidity

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 8:49 pm

I compare MJ to a tail-end batsman chasing a big score down. When it doesn’t look like you can win, they often swing the bat and score boundaries without pressure.

As soon as they get close to winning, the pressure mounts and they go far more defensive.

MJ started out attacking but the pressure got to him.

This also applies to the players.

Yes, Leeds went for a win because they had no choice but to do so.
The implication is that we didn’t go for the win from the start and that is something I believe was the case. A miscalculation because a win would have meant anything Leeds did would not have mattered.
No one expected a gung ho approach but I don’t think it would have been too much to ask to put Newcastle on the back foot from the kick off and feed of the crowd.
The momentum was lost and at 2-0 down you need more than passion on the field , you need clinical play. The one thing this team badly lack.

Italians are famous for bribing opposition teams when the chips are down. Juve got relegated for just that not too long ago in the grand scheme of things.

Leeds are owned by Italians.

Hmm

Ric_C wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 9:10 pm

Plus it's easy "going for the win" when the opposition gifts you a goal, then goes down to 9 men out of pure stupidity

I think Brentford more than played their part in our downfall and Leeds success to be honest. They were extremely poor and that was a huge factor yesterday, far more than how good or how attacking Leeds were.

Vegas Claret wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 8:22 pm

I had split screen so watched both games. If we were playing Brentford we would have won - well and truly on the beach, put in a 4/10 performance. Erikson was non existent.

Leeds deserved to win but Brentford were abysmal

To be fair they were pretty **** against us and bar the perfect Eriksen cross for the opener it was heading to 0-0.

Leeds went to win?
Leeds were gifted it by bl**dy useless Brentford. Gifted a penalty through hopeless defending then stupidly down to 9 men when the game was still in the balance.

Claret wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 11:50 pm

Leeds went to win?
Leeds were gifted it by bl**dy useless Brentford. Gifted a penalty through hopeless defending then stupidly down to 9 men when the game was still in the balance.

Well we are usually on the beach once we are safe, so we should have figured this in and that's way we should have gone out on the front foot to win the game, but we didn't.

We over complicated stuff all season. Too many years trying to scrape wins catches up with you. We needed to take games to teams and attack to put them away faster.

Wokingclaret wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 11:57 pm

Well we are usually on the beach once we are safe, so we should have figured this in and that's way we should have gone out on the front foot to win the game, but we didn't.

Yes, I agree. We were no good for most of the game.

On a separate note, it’s really annoying to look back on the season and identify all those occasions where we threw points away or were really unlucky and where the Leeds or Everton got the rub of the green. It all could have been so different. (Which of the 7 stages of grief am I displaying here?)

The way to overcome nerves is to go full throttle, as we did in the last 20-30.

That, the formation and the selection were errors. Newcastle weren’t that up for it, Pope didn’t make many good saves, we invited them on. It was what could have been, the tragedy is they know that of course.

Claret wrote: ↑

Tue May 24, 2022 12:24 am

Yes, I agree. We were no good for most of the game.

On a separate note, it’s really annoying to look back on the season and identify all those occasions where we threw points away or were really unlucky and where the Leeds or Everton got the rub of the green. It all could have been so different. (Which of the 7 stages of grief am I displaying here?)

I think you are still in the "anger" phase and I too have been thinking of all the numerous unlikely moments/events which have conspired to relegate us and getting enraged. We need to somehow let it go and reach "acceptance" and inner peace ASAP but it won't be easy. maybe we, and other like-minde and tortured Clarets should start a support Group and meet weekly in a church hall somewhere until we feel better.

Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 9:06 pm

I think we got the team selection wrong, and the tactics, but it's water under the bridge now.

Unfortunately, as ashtonlongsider pointed out above, what choices were there. A look at the bench offers only Stephens and Lennon to add more attacking intent. The only real option was Lennon for Long.

Couple that with a good performance at Spurs where on another day we might have won, and a good result at Villa, and you can see Jackson's thinking. Again, only the daft penalty blew it all away.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Tue May 24, 2022 7:34 am

Unfortunately, as ashtonlongsider pointed out above, what choices were there. A look at the bench offers only Stephens and Lennon to add more attacking intent. The only real option was Lennon for Long.

Couple that with a good performance at Spurs where on another day we might have won, and a good result at Villa, and you can see Jackson's thinking. Again, only the daft penalty blew it all away.

Mentioned on several threads now but McNeil right, Cornet left, WW and Barnes up front, Roberts RB and Collins CB - this was the way to go. Instead he played Collins at RB (not played there all season for us) and Roberts RM (not played there all season for us) and McNeil LM (been poor there all season and was up against a very good full back in Trippier). It also left us with no hold up play up front with both Barnes and Cornet unable to drop deep to link up.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Mon May 23, 2022 8:49 pm

I compare MJ to a tail-end batsman chasing a big score down. When it doesn’t look like you can win, they often swing the bat and score boundaries without pressure.

As soon as they get close to winning, the pressure mounts and they go far more defensive.

MJ started out attacking but the pressure got to him.

This is absolutely spot on

Whilst I do think MJ got his tactics wrong by picking the extra defender, we have to realise it could well have turned out for the best if we'd gone in at half time 0-0 and then gone at Newcastle in the second half which is probably what he was planning. Newcastle really weren't any kind of threat in the first half (they weren't really much of one in the second) but the stupid handball simply meant we put ourselves up against it early on and nobody could have predicted that. It that meant our formation suddenly looked all wrong as we were chasing the game. Also, had Lowton been available I guess he'd have played RB with Roberts ahead anchor the would have been a far better set up, but the red card at Villa robbed MJ of that option.

Hipper wrote: ↑

Tue May 24, 2022 7:34 am

Unfortunately, as ashtonlongsider pointed out above, what choices were there. A look at the bench offers only Stephens and Lennon to add more attacking intent. The only real option was Lennon for Long.

Couple that with a good performance at Spurs where on another day we might have won, and a good result at Villa, and you can see Jackson's thinking. Again, only the daft penalty blew it all away.

I thought we should have started WW, I love Barnes but he can't do enough on his own up top.
We needed to get the ball wide, and bodies in the box. We didn't do either first half. One long range effort from Dwight was a pitiful return.
I'm not trying to have a dig at MJ, I think he did a good job in difficult circumstances, but we missed an opportunity that last game.

The MJ song said it all.

We've got super Michael Jackson
He knows exactly what we need
Tarky at the back
Weggy in attack

He knew what we needed but changed it.

Should have gone 4 3 3 from the start and not worried what was going on elsewhere.