Data analysis in football

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Post Reply
Duffer_
Posts: 2309
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 am
Been Liked: 792 times
Has Liked: 1353 times

Data analysis in football

Post by Duffer_ » Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:44 pm

The story of Charles Reep, something of a pioneer in football data analysis:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61648608
This user liked this post: Hipper

NRC
Posts: 4288
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:58 pm
Been Liked: 908 times
Has Liked: 107 times
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees, NC

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by NRC » Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:50 pm

I just posted about analytics in my OP on AC MIlan. It's super-important. I'm familiar with how it works at clubs like Spurs, Ajax and Werder Bremen through inside knowledge, and now reporting on its success at Milan. I'd love to know the size of data science departments at premier league clubs. It's a big deal in the US MLS.

I don't think people quite get the breadth of application within a club, at least what it ought to be... I'll tell you one thing though - get data science right and your on the road to being better than those that don't bother
This user liked this post: Foshiznik

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14562
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:21 pm

Despite the enormous amount of information gathered in each game, still there are people on here who refuse to accept or use stats during a discussion, instead claiming they prefer to use their eyes, I'm guessing because they don't understand the stats or don't want to understand them because it's cold and precise.
This user liked this post: evensteadiereddie

CrosspoolClarets
Posts: 5227
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 1623 times
Has Liked: 397 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:26 pm

The great thing about stats is that even the “experts” working in PL clubs don’t fully understand them, because there is no such thing as perfect understanding of a stat.

In football the question is obvious - what leads to winning a game? The answer is less obvious, there may be correlations with possession or passes in the box etc but there are thousands of variables so this can never be proven. I predict that some clubs have people really good at it, and others the opposite, and their bosses (CEOs etc) have no way of knowing if their staff are correct in what they are concluding. The best they can do is take collective responsibility for the outcome.

I would thus be surprised if stats folk in PL clubs don’t get binned at least as often as managers, they are just as crucial these days.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10839
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5516 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by TheFamilyCat » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:29 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:21 pm
Despite the enormous amount of information gathered in each game, still there are people on here who refuse to accept or use stats during a discussion, instead claiming they prefer to use their eyes, I'm guessing because they don't understand the stats or don't want to understand them because it's cold and precise.
TBF I think it was one poster. One poster who proves themself to be a complete fruitloop on every subject they post on
This user liked this post: evensteadiereddie

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:33 pm

I have tried to encourage such a thread as this for a few years now - I saw it developing in the same way as the MMT but could never devote the necessary attention to it that I did with that

it left us with this as a stop start thread
http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=46754

There are more board members who are interested in this subject now so it would be great if a few of you build a continuous thread on the general subject area - and this thread title is perfect for such a thing

edlass
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:37 pm
Been Liked: 59 times
Has Liked: 37 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by edlass » Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:03 pm

There has to be some irony in here somewhere that someone smarter than me can work out but something along the lines of - More science and data is used to gain advantages to win football matches and yet there are more matches people aren't bothered about winning as the Champions League and premier league (reaching it) diminish the importance of other competitions.

Even Chapman himself said something along those lines that winning had become more important than amateur expression in football and he was sad to have played a part in that.

That's not to say it isn't an extremely interesting subject!

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:46 pm

In the spirit of trying to keep this subject matter going on a single thread - this was an interesting piece in the Athletic - archive copy so no paywall

What Premier League clubs are learning from F1
https://archive.ph/fQXdM
This user liked this post: evensteadiereddie

dougcollins
Posts: 6586
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:23 am
Been Liked: 1778 times
Has Liked: 1773 times
Location: Yarkshire

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by dougcollins » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:08 pm

Weren't Brentford the first English football club to achieve success with a data-led approach?

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:00 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:08 pm
Weren't Brentford the first English football club to achieve success with a data-led approach?
hard to say - Big Sam, used it at Bolton, many clubs have used it for many years and its use is constantly evolving - you could see last season in particular that a lot of Premier League teams were using in match data to influence in match tactical decisions and substitutions

There are plenty of people who have fallen for the myth that Brentford are the most successful exponents of utilising Data - that required significant additional financial backing and not just to accelerate the returns. True money ball is not reliant on the input of additional funding - look at Liverpool but also ourselves until we employed Mike Rigg, that appointment was supposed to drive us further forward, instead it showed that one appointment (if wrong) can have catastrophic consequences for a club like ours
This user liked this post: dougcollins

ClaretPete001
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:39 am
Been Liked: 308 times
Has Liked: 162 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:24 am

edlass wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:03 pm
There has to be some irony in here somewhere that someone smarter than me can work out but something along the lines of - More science and data is used to gain advantages to win football matches and yet there are more matches people aren't bothered about winning as the Champions League and premier league (reaching it) diminish the importance of other competitions.

Even Chapman himself said something along those lines that winning had become more important than amateur expression in football and he was sad to have played a part in that.

That's not to say it isn't an extremely interesting subject!
The danger is that data begins to constrain aspects of the game that make it interesting.

You see it in education, the NHS etc. The performance of the service becomes poorer because no allowance is made for the constraints of data. Praxis is complex and humans generally aren't so data begins to conform human behaviour instead of simply measuring it.
These 2 users liked this post: CoolClaret Duffer_

Mattster
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:02 am
Been Liked: 349 times
Has Liked: 117 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Mattster » Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:54 pm

There'll be an interesting test case for eye test vs. data to follow in the Championship this season.

Anel Ahmedhodžić is something of a darling of the football analytics community despite coming off the back of a relegation on loan at Bordeaux.

He's just signed for Sheffield United.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:52 am

another article to keep this thread ticking along - from the Ney York Times - link to an archive copy avoids the paywall

Science and Data Change Soccer’s Definition of Old
Top clubs have long looked to shed players once they hit age 30. But those presumptions rely on outdated logic, statistics show.


By Rory Smith - July 14, 2022

https://archive.ph/NkVdH

Colburn_Claret
Posts: 8069
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:30 pm
Been Liked: 3060 times
Has Liked: 5023 times
Location: Catterick N.Yorks

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:03 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:21 pm
Despite the enormous amount of information gathered in each game, still there are people on here who refuse to accept or use stats during a discussion, instead claiming they prefer to use their eyes, I'm guessing because they don't understand the stats or don't want to understand them because it's cold and precise.
Stats and data are two different things.

Stats can be manipulated to prove whatever you want, data is the facts.

I do believe that they are important, but only because good scouts are as rare as rocking horse ****.

spt_claret
Posts: 1891
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:52 pm
Been Liked: 728 times
Has Liked: 456 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by spt_claret » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:34 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:52 am
another article to keep this thread ticking along - from the Ney York Times - link to an archive copy avoids the paywall

Science and Data Change Soccer’s Definition of Old
Top clubs have long looked to shed players once they hit age 30. But those presumptions rely on outdated logic, statistics show.


By Rory Smith - July 14, 2022

https://archive.ph/NkVdH
Great read and one which I find is backed up by the eye test- I've noticed for about 6-7 years now that more and more top players are lasting well into their 30s (or even 40s with Buffon and Zlatan). Sport science keeps making advances year on year which is only going to further enable player longevity, and then you look at what they're doing in the US with stem cell therapy in sports & athletics and it's even more apparent.
I've said before and will say again that players remaining elite until their late 30s and lasting at high levels til their 40s is going to become much more common. I'd go as far as saying that the next Stanley Matthews is probably currently playing.

Also potentially puts Dyche's transfer policy in an interesting light given his own use of analytics. Less extinct dinosaur and more Jurassic Park, perhaps.

dandeclaret
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 am
Been Liked: 2560 times
Has Liked: 300 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by dandeclaret » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:36 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:21 pm
Despite the enormous amount of information gathered in each game, still there are people on here who refuse to accept or use stats during a discussion, instead claiming they prefer to use their eyes, I'm guessing because they don't understand the stats or don't want to understand them because it's cold and precise.
Quite the inverse.... it's when people select 1 stat to shape a whole view on a footballer, claiming they "Use Stats". Too many people think they are data analysts, with their reductive use of stats.
This user liked this post: CoolClaret

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Rowls » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:58 am

Giggs managed to keep going very late in the day too.

I once had an interesting conversation with a New Age healer in a pub who claimed that Giggs had made a deal with Mephistopholes and had found a way of sucking the life force out of his brother but I didn't pay him any heed.
This user liked this post: Middle-agedClaret

Buxtonclaret
Posts: 16616
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:05 am
Been Liked: 3747 times
Has Liked: 7519 times
Location: Derbyshire

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Buxtonclaret » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:02 am

Rowls wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:58 am
Giggs managed to keep going very late in the day too.

I once had an interesting conversation with a New Age healer in a pub who claimed that Giggs had made a deal with Mephistopholes and had found a way of sucking the life force out of his brother but I didn't pay him any heed.
You were right to ignore him, Rowls.
I'd have nothing to do with anyone who'd do that to anyone else, let alone to his own brother. :(

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:07 am

Came across this from an ex-Burnley player
https://trainingground.guru/articles/ho ... -platforms

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:49 pm

part of a series on the MMT but this particular article fits here also
Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 12:58 pm
Second part of this from Dominic Fifield in The Athletic today - still not sure what construes extreme data given all the myriad of examples we continually see for this across football, most just need to understand that it's extensive use is widespread in the game, which is no surprise given the profiles of the ownership groups. It is how they are used to working.

as ever link to an archive copy so no paywall issues

Inside a football club – part two: Transfers with data, the extreme version
https://theathletic.com/3526088/2022/08 ... -toulouse/

CoolClaret
Posts: 7121
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 7:39 pm
Been Liked: 2159 times
Has Liked: 2046 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by CoolClaret » Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:54 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:24 am
The danger is that data begins to constrain aspects of the game that make it interesting.

You see it in education, the NHS etc. The performance of the service becomes poorer because no allowance is made for the constraints of data. Praxis is complex and humans generally aren't so data begins to conform human behaviour instead of simply measuring it.
Excellent post

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:05 pm

Thought this might interest a few given the way our own club's approach has changed - From The Athletic

Is it time to analyse attacking data differently?
https://archive.ph/vUiTJ
This user liked this post: Duffer_

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:17 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:05 pm
Thought this might interest a few given the way our own club's approach has changed - From The Athletic

Is it time to analyse attacking data differently?
https://archive.ph/vUiTJ
Interesting in part because it shows how subjective stats are. You can flex stats to show various things so long as you come up with a good (or sometimes not so good) reason for it. When you look at the stats it's not just considering the raw figures but also the underlying calculation of them.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by aggi » Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:33 am

Also, to get an idea of how important data is in football now you can look at the job spec for a First Team Physical Performance Coach at Everton
One of the essential skills is IT Skills, including video editing skills, and a high level of competence using excel, word and PowerPoint skills.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by RVclaret » Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:59 am

I know this thread is mainly discussing the purpose of data in football but may as well add some actual data to it!

Championship players this season: Set pieces per 90 & Key passes per 90

Basically who creates from open play, or who doesn't, or who's chance creation mainly comes from set pieces.

A certain Ian Maatsen leading the way.
Attachments
maatsen.png
maatsen.png (483.82 KiB) Viewed 4217 times
This user liked this post: Duffer_

Mattster
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:02 am
Been Liked: 349 times
Has Liked: 117 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Mattster » Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:58 pm

FBRef have swapped their data source so they can now offer free data for more leagues - which includes the Championship. Burnley's below for anyone interested.

https://fbref.com/en/squads/943e8050/Burnley-Stats
This user liked this post: Duffer_

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by aggi » Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:23 pm

Mattster wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:58 pm
FBRef have swapped their data source so they can now offer free data for more leagues - which includes the Championship. Burnley's below for anyone interested.

https://fbref.com/en/squads/943e8050/Burnley-Stats
Cheers. The FBRef stuff is nice and easy to pull into stuff like PowerBI. Lets you have a look at things like how good Muric is at stopping crosses (worse than average but the margins aren't huge and we don't allow that many crosses into the box) or whether Muric does play it around the most out of the keepers (doesn't make the most passes but on average makes the shortest passes).
Attachments
GoalkeeperPasses.jpg
GoalkeeperPasses.jpg (85.7 KiB) Viewed 3924 times
CrossesStopped.jpg
CrossesStopped.jpg (86.84 KiB) Viewed 3924 times

ecc
Posts: 4195
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:08 am
Been Liked: 1394 times
Has Liked: 1272 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by ecc » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:41 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:59 am
I know this thread is mainly discussing the purpose of data in football but may as well add some actual data to it!

Championship players this season: Set pieces per 90 & Key passes per 90

Basically who creates from open play, or who doesn't, or who's chance creation mainly comes from set pieces.

A certain Ian Maatsen leading the way.
Finding it difficult to understand this graph.

Nathan Tella seems to create next to nothing from open play if I'm reading it properly.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by aggi » Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:53 pm

ecc wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:41 pm
Finding it difficult to understand this graph.

Nathan Tella seems to create next to nothing from open play if I'm reading it properly.
That's what it is showing (and also creates little from set pieces). I would guess it is because Tella is normally the end link of our plays so is shooting more than creating. Although looking at shot creation assists (involved in the two offensive actions prior to a shot) he is doing OK, possibly as this will credit players with shots that they have created themselves.
Attachments
shot creation.jpg
shot creation.jpg (63.29 KiB) Viewed 3714 times

ClaretPete001
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:39 am
Been Liked: 308 times
Has Liked: 162 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:01 pm

aggi wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:53 pm
That's what it is showing (and also creates little from set pieces). I would guess it is because Tella is normally the end link of our plays so is shooting more than creating. Although looking at shot creation assists (involved in the two offensive actions prior to a shot) he is doing OK, possibly as this will credit players with shots that they have created themselves.
As you allude to above we can all have long debate about the meaning of "shot creation" and then have a long debate whether the data accurately reflects the meaning of shot creation or just accept that data just offers a lens on reality - it is not reality itself.

Nonayforever
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:15 pm
Been Liked: 690 times
Has Liked: 172 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Nonayforever » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:40 pm

There's one advantage of getting old, and that is experience.
I would hazard a guess at saying that if a manager was able to sign the top stat player in each position on the pitch , he would in fact have a poor overall team.
Taking our last two managers as examples, the available data would be interpreted in two completely different ways.
One piece of data that I'm sure of is that Brownhill should be nowhere near the next free kick.

timshorts
Posts: 2534
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:52 pm
Been Liked: 410 times
Has Liked: 307 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by timshorts » Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:10 pm

ecc wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:41 pm
Finding it difficult to understand this graph.

Nathan Tella seems to create next to nothing from open play if I'm reading it properly.
There is insufficient data on that graph for it to be very meaningful. Take Sam clucas who appears to be next to useless (as tella).
When at Chesterfield he had times playing left wing, full back, centre forward and central midfield. If you jumble all those games up, you'd learn next to nothing.
Brady is high up the y axis because managers for some reason let him near dead balls. He could occasionally do something special, but he was no better with most free kicks than I was.

How useless someone is taking free kicks would be useful data, but again, only if there was sufficient data and realistic parameters. How often is a goal scored from England players free kicks? Who'd be top? Well Harry kane, obviously unless you specifically disregard penalties.
I'd love to see data on diving.

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by aggi » Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:17 pm

Obviously the main limit here is that it's random little graphs showing the odd discrete thing or two.

What the clubs are looking at is how you make use of all this data to get full pictures. They are hiring guys from Facebook and Google and the like with doctorates to do this analysis and interpretation. At the moment there is more data than there is meaningful analysis and clubs are trying to work out how to fix that.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by RVclaret » Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:03 am

https://twitter.com/statsbomb/status/16 ... lREFW1lt-A

Interesting thread from a football analytics company on how they help clubs with recruitment.

They have recently partnered with Plymouth and Hull.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Jun 25, 2023 4:43 pm

It has been a while since there has been anything on this thread - which should actually be constantly added to imho

anyho - this is from the Times

How football is racing to take game to next level
They may be late to the party, but nearly every Premier League club is now experimenting with AI

https://archive.is/rPBnP#selection-841.0-845.96

Foshiznik
Posts: 2504
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:18 pm
Been Liked: 713 times
Has Liked: 1995 times
Location: Computer matrix, IP not found- current code: 00101110100101001100100 1011101010100010101101010100100

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Foshiznik » Tue Jun 27, 2023 1:23 pm

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Data analysis alone is the answer, just like scouting and the "eye test" isn't either. A bit of both worlds would provide more balanced analysis.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:32 pm

This may go some way to explaining why our club employs data Analysis recruitment specialists (Mud Analytics Limited) on a consultancy basis rather than play catch up in house - From The Athletic As an aside - Frontier Labs Ltd, another business our manager had a controlling interest in (he has now fully divested from) looked like being a potential market leader in this space before switching focus to retail analysis

‘Will Harry Kane be a good signing for Bayern?’: The rise of Generative AI in football scouting
https://archive.is/Viu1v

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:01 pm

Another piece on AI in scouting with mention of AiScout - Ai/io and that fact that our club have recruited for the academy using the tool

From The Telegraph

AI scouting is changing football at elite and amateur level
Technology is already having an effect on the game and that is only set to increase after its first forays into Premier League scouting

https://archive.li/A0NEu

It won't just be Ai but the rumours that our Scouting department has been drastically cut in favour of such technologies makes this interesting reading

Blondeclaret
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:09 pm
Been Liked: 14 times
Has Liked: 40 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Blondeclaret » Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:33 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:01 pm
Another piece on AI in scouting with mention of AiScout - Ai/io and that fact that our club have recruited for the academy using the tool

From The Telegraph

AI scouting is changing football at elite and amateur level
Technology is already having an effect on the game and that is only set to increase after its first forays into Premier League scouting

https://archive.li/A0NEu

It won't just be Ai but the rumours that our Scouting department has been drastically cut in favour of such technologies makes this interesting reading
Very interesting read. The actual stats of what Burnley actually achieved from using this method was very minimal. But as you rightly said the scouting system at Burnley is now almost none existent at all ages apart from a few at grass roots .
Time will tell wether this is the correct route to go down. Personally myself I can see a lot of clubs doing a U turn on these systems.

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:29 pm

I have been waiting for more use of set plays in football for some time - so much easier to call now given the analyst up in the stands and (in the Premier League at least) regulations about having mandatory data connections alongside the coaches seats in the dugouts -however it seems that one of the best exponents of this are in the bottom rung of the EFL

From The Times

Why short corners are football’s new secret weapon
Forget ‘put it in the mixer’ – League Two outfit Notts County are opting for short corners more than 90 per cent of the time. Hamzah Khalique-Loonat explains why

https://archive.ph/slGaY

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Jan 01, 2024 6:09 pm

It is a constant disappointment that this thread has failed to take off * though it's predecessor also had similar struggles

anyho, here are two articles from two of the more cerebral football journalists out there, both have a particular taste in the development of football tactics - not quite data analysis but close enough

first up Rory Smith in The New York Times from a couple of weeks back

Knowledge Is Power. But Is It Fun to Watch?
Data has driven soccer to new heights. But narrowing the margins in matches might come at the expense of their true value: to entertain.

https://archive.ph/QmOQq

Next is Jonathan Wilson in The Guardian from last week

In football’s third age, old certainties have melted away and nothing is as it seems
No longer a game of territory or possession, the prevailing tactic is more complex – as Bournemouth’s kick-off routine shows

https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... s-it-seems
https://archive.ph/ac1Y9
This user liked this post: PhiladelphiaChris

JimmyRobbo
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:55 am
Been Liked: 490 times
Has Liked: 871 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by JimmyRobbo » Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:14 pm

I work in an industry inundated with data and it is eating itself through misinterpretation.

Data is incredibly important but it relies on the user understanding what it is tellling them. I can show you data indicating increased sales of green underware from M&S leads to houseprices stagnating. It still needs appropriate analysts to accurately identify application of almost infinite amounts of numbers.

Hell! There are even instances of 'sprints' being abused when taking a throw-in.

Ampth7
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:12 pm
Been Liked: 228 times
Has Liked: 226 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Ampth7 » Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:18 pm

I’ve often wondered if the game could be in danger of becoming too mechanical or robotic owing to things like data analysis along with the coaching that then comes off the back of the data.
Is the game in danger of losing the natural flair and creativity of its attacking players in favour of set phases of play that are data driven? What does this look like in reality? Does it mean, for example, wingers don’t take on full backs anymore and instead opt to come back inside to keep the ball like Grealish now seems to do every time he gets it? The obvious comeback question I guess is why would or could that happen? Well, if the data presented a case to suggest wingers are statistically much better off recycling the ball instead of taking the full back on, then a coach may implement that accordingly, which I think is boring!

Another concern I have is regarding the already happening data-race that realistically will only be won by the so called bigger teams which inevitably grows the gap in performance standards even further. Personally, I’m already miffed at the chasm that already exists in the so-called greatest league in World Football, and this gap is only going to get bigger if a club like ours can only afford 2/3 data analysts as opposed to Man City’s 10 (I’m guessing on numbers here).
This user liked this post: willsclarets

willsclarets
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 680 times
Has Liked: 133 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by willsclarets » Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:17 am

One of the lamentable things about data analytics, is the uniformity of players and playing styles. They are almost athletes first and footballers second. That's a blanket statement of course that has examples of contradiction. But it seems very unlikely a matt le tissier for example, would find his way through the myriad of data points that make up the modern footballer.

I want to see individuals and individual expression. At it's best football can be a beautiful thing to watch. But far too often it feels like I'm watching supreme athletes run simulations or patterns of play in sequence. Data is great to a degree, but I think it stifles the potential for magic, which is why I fell in love with the game.
This user liked this post: Ampth7

Spike
Posts: 2681
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:07 pm
Been Liked: 592 times
Has Liked: 1225 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Spike » Tue Jan 02, 2024 10:21 pm

Don’t need analytics to show that VAR is corrupt

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jan 03, 2024 1:25 pm

I am sure that I have posted about this before - though it is now apparently becoming much more of the norm in contract negotiations

from The Athletic

Kevin De Bruyne and the rise of data and analytics in contract negotiations
https://archive.ph/rDwQl

Chester Perry
Posts: 19167
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:06 am
Been Liked: 3114 times
Has Liked: 481 times

Re: Data analysis in football

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:30 pm

Jonathan Wilson for The Observer with an interesting counterpoint to the over-reliance on data in game management

Jürgen Klopp is right: man-management skills are being lost in a rush of data
In the seasonal flurry, the process is over-prioritised and as the Liverpool manager points out, players’ emotions count more

https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... eague-data
https://archive.ph/x4Hjc
This user liked this post: CoolClaret

Post Reply