Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

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Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:51 am

Since it became a very realistic likelihood that Burnley would get relegated, I’ve been thinking about our ‘model’ and how successful we’ve been with it historically, but also accepting that in truth, relegation probably came two or three years after it should, due to significant under-investment.

We will often hear the phrase ‘punching above our weight’, but when the previous chairman pulled in the old funding ropes, as we have already discussed, the writing was on the wall. But the main point of this message is around the growth of wages belonging to those players who have been with us for a long time…

When a club is successful, you try to keep your best players… consequently they get significantly improved contracts and in some cases, that has amounted to 2 or three new deals in the last 5 to 10 years.

It pains me to say it, but I totally understand why we have lost many of our significantly large wage earners, although I remain disappointed about losing Pope in the manner we have. I did agree with dandeclaret when he talked about asset stripping and risk…we need to be very careful too.

Getting to my point… I really like the idea of the new model: investing in young and hungry players, who have already had a bit of experience at this level, but with a lot of potential already against their name. It reminds me of Kieran Trippier, whilst at Barnsley and Ben Mee whilst at Leicester.

So let’s assume, that this is the way we will go with a significant number of incomings, my question is, should we get promoted in the next year or so… and that is a very big IF, how do we deal with the future incomings, whilst trying to re-establish ourselves as a top-flight club?

Is the answer buying players for 2-5 million and loaning them out to championship clubs (not league two) so that they’re ready much quicker and as a result, just slot back in a year or do later? This whilst at the same time, adding to the current crop with some premier league know-how…

It is also made me think about the feeder club model that some clubs have operated under in the past… taking players abroad and vice versa, to get experience, whilst still on the books of the parent club.

What is the way forward?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:22 pm

jdrobbo wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:51 am
Since it became a very realistic likelihood that Burnley would get relegated, I’ve been thinking about our ‘model’ and how successful we’ve been with it historically, but also accepting that in truth, relegation probably came two or three years after it should, due to significant under-investment.

We will often hear the phrase ‘punching above our weight’, but when the previous chairman pulled in the old funding ropes, as we have already discussed, the writing was on the wall. But the main point of this message is around the growth of wages belonging to those players who have been with us for a long time…

When a club is successful, you try to keep your best players… consequently they get significantly improved contracts and in some cases, that has amounted to 2 or three new deals in the last 5 to 10 years.

It pains me to say it, but I totally understand why we have lost many of our significantly large wage earners, although I remain disappointed about losing Pope in the manner we have. I did agree with dandeclaret when he talked about asset stripping and risk…we need to be very careful too.

Getting to my point… I really like the idea of the new model: investing in young and hungry players, who have already had a bit of experience at this level, but with a lot of potential already against their name. It reminds me of Kieran Trippier, whilst at Barnsley and Ben Mee whilst at Leicester.

So let’s assume, that this is the way we will go with a significant number of incomings, my question is, should we get promoted in the next year or so… and that is a very big IF, how do we deal with the future incomings, whilst trying to re-establish ourselves as a top-flight club?

Is the answer buying players for 2-5 million and loaning them out to championship clubs (not league two) so that they’re ready much quicker and as a result, just slot back in a year or do later? This whilst at the same time, adding to the current crop with some premier league know-how…

It is also made me think about the feeder club model that some clubs have operated under in the past… taking players abroad and vice versa, to get experience, whilst still on the books of the parent club.

What is the way forward?
Good stuff.
I don't think we'd need to buy cheap if we return to the PL, but we maybe should be prepared to sell any player at the peak of his value... and have replacements ready in the squad.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:27 pm

The club should be willing to take a risk on players with potential.

Setting aside Brentford's debts, their transfer/scouting system worked quite well when they were outside of the PL, large returns from a number of low cost signings.

If we're going to be loaning out players when we're in the PL, they should be going to the championship where possible.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:29 pm

Interesting that VK pointed out in his press conference, Burnley were the old successful model, now it’s Brentford and to an extent (although they’ve doesn’t much more), Brighton.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Penwortham_Claret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:31 pm

There isn’t enough publicity around the fact that Brentford scrapped their academy completely although they have reintroduced it quite recently
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:34 pm

jdrobbo wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:29 pm
Interesting that VK pointed out in his press conference, Burnley were the old successful model, now it’s Brentford and to an extent (although they’ve doesn’t much more), Brighton.
Don’t agree with him on Brighton, they’ve thrown money at it.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Boss Hogg » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:35 pm

Whilst I’m not convinced we will make an immediate return with so many changes I am looking forward to the new season more. We will be more competitive in most games and have a chance to watch some attractive football for the first time in ages. I’d prefer to watch hungrier young players trying to prove something than old pros collecting astronomical pay cheques. I find it harder to get behind the latter.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:35 pm

Penwortham_Claret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:31 pm
There isn’t enough publicity around the fact that Brentford scrapped their academy completely although they have reintroduced it quite recently
They are having to crevice their system because of Brexit and not being able to get players in so easily.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:41 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:34 pm
Don’t agree with him on Brighton, they’ve thrown money at it.
I thought that

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:49 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:35 pm
They are having to crevice their system because of Brexit and not being able to get players in so easily.
Didn't you say recently that an academy is needed to allow entry to European competition?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by bodge » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:58 pm

I think the model we have is the right one, partly because I don't think the club have a choice given the financial predicament.

Promotion of course would be fantastic but there would need to be significant investment to compete in the Premier League as we would not have the pedigree of Pope,Mee and Tarkowski to call upon.

We would likely be in a yo-yo scenario for a while whilst we improved the standard of the squad to have our next longer stay at the top table.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Nonayforever » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:59 pm

I think every successful club should have a stalwart - A Henderson, Noble, Gerrard or Terry to guide the "new recruits ".

I also think that is where Man Utd have failed, but for the other members of the squad in a team such as Burnley it's sell them at their peak and try to keep a conveyor belt going. Easier said than done however !
The higher the league the higher the cost, but that is all relative to how much you sell the stars for.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Sarum » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:04 pm

Going back awhile and again more recently, J, several players in SD's squad were apparently not his signings, but the board's. I suppose we should anticipate this happening at times during VK's tenure, too. And if so, I hope that - whatever the other reasons for it - this has been agreed in advance with VK as part of any re-modelling strategy that they share. Hopefully...

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:05 pm

I think under Dyche if we had been relegated we would have expected an immediate return to the prem because of his know how on getting out the division. I believe he would have got us up at first time of asking. The problem though is we were prolonging the inevitable, which was a huge overhaul of the squad, we had stopped putting a conveyor belt in place for each position, instead an often older player waiting in the wings for each position instead of a young hungry lad as we have seen in years gone by where they would wait for a year or two at times before getting a run out and finally claiming a Jersey. Like Pope replaced Heaton, but then cover was Hennessy. Taylor replaced Ward, but then cover was Pieters.

I think Pace by sacking Dyche has grabbed the bull by its horns and in getting Kompany has someone that is 100% behind the vision of what the board want for the club. I do think we are probably going to end up in a Norwich type position where we will yo yo, we have no right to stay in the prem as long as we did last time. I dont think the board will plan for that, it would be naive to think we could achieve that again, but we can plan to go up every other year, showcase the talents of young lads, possibly sell 1 or 2 each year and eventually clear the debt, then putting us on a steadier footing for a proper challenge of staying the top flight
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretTony » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:08 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:49 pm
Didn't you say recently that an academy is needed to allow entry to European competition?
That's why Huddersfield kept a Cat 4 category
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:10 pm

Another thing I have always said when people queried why top clubs wouldn't go for our top players was the football we played, the top managers struggled seeing them play in their system. What Kompany I believe will do is play as close in system as possible with the top clubs, so that they can see how our younger (fingers crossed) players would perform within their systems, this is what Norwich have been doing, they know they are going down each year as you can't play the big boys at their own game and expect to win, but they are committed to it as it serves a purpose for them

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by It Is What It Is » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:16 pm

jdrobbo wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:51 am
Since it became a very realistic likelihood that Burnley would get relegated, I’ve been thinking about our ‘model’ and how successful we’ve been with it historically, but also accepting that in truth, relegation probably came two or three years after it should, due to significant under-investment.

We will often hear the phrase ‘punching above our weight’, but when the previous chairman pulled in the old funding ropes, as we have already discussed, the writing was on the wall. But the main point of this message is around the growth of wages belonging to those players who have been with us for a long time…

When a club is successful, you try to keep your best players… consequently they get significantly improved contracts and in some cases, that has amounted to 2 or three new deals in the last 5 to 10 years.

It pains me to say it, but I totally understand why we have lost many of our significantly large wage earners, although I remain disappointed about losing Pope in the manner we have. I did agree with dandeclaret when he talked about asset stripping and risk…we need to be very careful too.

Getting to my point… I really like the idea of the new model: investing in young and hungry players, who have already had a bit of experience at this level, but with a lot of potential already against their name. It reminds me of Kieran Trippier, whilst at Barnsley and Ben Mee whilst at Leicester.

So let’s assume, that this is the way we will go with a significant number of incomings, my question is, should we get promoted in the next year or so… and that is a very big IF, how do we deal with the future incomings, whilst trying to re-establish ourselves as a top-flight club?

Is the answer buying players for 2-5 million and loaning them out to championship clubs (not league two) so that they’re ready much quicker and as a result, just slot back in a year or do later? This whilst at the same time, adding to the current crop with some premier league know-how…

It is also made me think about the feeder club model that some clubs have operated under in the past… taking players abroad and vice versa, to get experience, whilst still on the books of the parent club.

What is the way forward?
Yes agree. Going forward with the present and soon to be the signings of very young championship players, is the way to go.
Financially astute and never really a better chance for VK to use his knowledge, experience and his very thick name dropping black book.
Having worked in Spain for nearly 20 years, I have found their reserves, ( B Teams 17 to 23 yrs), exceptionally fit , very fast and gifted technically on the ball players.
They are trained to use their speed only when the passage of play allows, so they can accelerate as fast in the 90th minute as they can in the 1st.
The game tempo is a lot slower than the EFL but very effective when attacking . I don't think the English game is ready for such methodical tactics, but to steady a very new and relagated team I don't think it a bad tactic.
Possession, Possession, Possession, Pass, pass, pass.
Runaway break and hopefully score.
The possession and passing game would ooze confidence and frustrate opponents.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:16 pm

Sarum wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:04 pm
Going back awhile and again more recently, J, several players in SD's squad were apparently not his signings, but the board's. I suppose we should anticipate this happening at times during VK's tenure, too. And if so, I hope that - whatever the other reasons for it - this has been agreed in advance with VK as part of any re-modelling strategy that they share. Hopefully...
Highly likely, although I imagine they’re perhaps more aligned where using data is concerned.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by forzagranata » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:26 pm

The tricky issue with any model for a club with limited resource is the selling more than the buying. Tarkowski would, at one stage, have been worth around 30 million. Ben Mee maybe a few years ago 15 million, Nick Pope 20 million - so there is 50 odd million lost through not selling at the right time. Money was also lost on Danny Ings earlier. The problem of course is that no manager and few fans want to see their best players sold at their peak. But it can work. For example, Michael Keane was sold for good money (just short of 30 million) and we had already recruited and bedded in Tarkowski to replace him.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:47 pm

forzagranata wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:26 pm
The tricky issue with any model for a club with limited resource is the selling more than the buying. Tarkowski would, at one stage, have been worth around 30 million. Ben Mee maybe a few years ago 15 million, Nick Pope 20 million - so there is 50 odd million lost through not selling at the right time. Money was also lost on Danny Ings earlier. The problem of course is that no manager and few fans want to see their best players sold at their peak. But it can work. For example, Michael Keane was sold for good money (just short of 30 million) and we had already recruited and bedded in Tarkowski to replace him.
Agree with this. Nice to hear from you forza. Hope you and family are well 👍🏻

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:40 pm

Got to be the new model,seasoned pros are needed however we were overloaded with them hence relegation. To many injuries and lack of pace .

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by DCWat » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:07 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:05 pm
I think under Dyche if we had been relegated we would have expected an immediate return to the prem because of his know how on getting out the division. I believe he would have got us up at first time of asking. The problem though is we were prolonging the inevitable, which was a huge overhaul of the squad, we had stopped putting a conveyor belt in place for each position, instead an often older player waiting in the wings for each position instead of a young hungry lad as we have seen in years gone by where they would wait for a year or two at times before getting a run out and finally claiming a Jersey. Like Pope replaced Heaton, but then cover was Hennessy. Taylor replaced Ward, but then cover was Pieters.

I think Pace by sacking Dyche has grabbed the bull by its horns and in getting Kompany has someone that is 100% behind the vision of what the board want for the club. I do think we are probably going to end up in a Norwich type position where we will yo yo, we have no right to stay in the prem as long as we did last time. I dont think the board will plan for that, it would be naive to think we could achieve that again, but we can plan to go up every other year, showcase the talents of young lads, possibly sell 1 or 2 each year and eventually clear the debt, then putting us on a steadier footing for a proper challenge of staying the top flight
I don’t think it will be in Pace’s plan for us to be a yo-yo club.

I think that the plan will be to continue the develop and sell model whilst gradually upping the value and quality of players that we target (likely never losing sight of their value and moving them on at the right times). Whether it works or not, remains to be seen.

Talk of Europe in five years is fanciful. If that’s his aim though, there’s a plan that has much more challenging goals than yo-yoing.

Going back to the OP. It’s an interesting challenge - this season is perfect for integrating players, us being at a lower level. If we get promoted it does become trickier to bed in lower league players to the Premier League.

Being prepared to buy with an eye on one, two or perhaps three years into the future is one thing, being able to deliver that successfully might prove difficult, certainly in any sort of volume.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:38 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:35 pm
They are having to crevice their system because of Brexit and not being able to get players in so easily.
What happened with our partnership with the 3 or 4 other clubs we announced? Thought we'd play some of those sides in pre-season and send players there on loan. Ayr United and Cobbler wanderers or something

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:42 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:38 pm
What happened with our partnership with the 3 or 4 other clubs we announced? Thought we'd play some of those sides in pre-season and send players there on loan. Ayr United and Cobbler wanderers or something
That is a very good question.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by DCWat » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:49 pm

Cobbler Wanderers.

Is that the new Timpson’s employee who keeps going AWOL?
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:51 pm

DCWat wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:49 pm
Cobbler Wanderers.

Is that the new Timpson’s employee who keeps going AWOL?
Don't put the boot in, it was a good question.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Vegas Claret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:03 pm

I'm loving the new model and for clubs like us it's the way forward.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by dandeclaret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm

I feel that the new model is incredibly high risk. What percentage of "Sign Potential" signings pay off? How many yield significant growth in the money invested, either through sales, or being key players in promotion sides? How many are average, and just run at the value that they cost, and how many are below average, and don't succeed at the level they step up to? My gut feel is that the distribution is skewed to the lower end of that scale - maybe as much as 50% to be less than average, 35% average and 15% above average. That can obviously be worked in your favour, if your talent identification capabilities are very strong - there's a few clubs that are successful at this. However, even those quoted, like Brentford, probably run at a loss on this. Their financial numbers haven't looked great for a good few years.

We have just had the most successful period that any of us can remember, with results delivered far outstripping resources available, yet the club, and many fans, want to see a complete departure from that. I believe, that a strong spine, with youngsters interspersed is probably the right way forward. You don't win anything with kids, was laughed at. If Alan Hansen had said you don't win anything with kids unless they are truly exceptional, he would have been right. I don't believe that the club has the necessary contacts, scouting network, or pull to attract truly exceptional youthful players, and this mantra of picking up players for £2-5m worries me. The chances of success in that space seem very slim.

Whilst I don't disagree that it's exciting to think of the potential upside of this strategy, the realist in me says that this is high risk, and likely to end in the club wasting the platform built up over the last 7 or 8 years. losing strong players, and investing in talent that eventually looks expensive, and putting us back close to square one of the Cotterill days.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:38 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm
I feel that the new model is incredibly high risk. What percentage of "Sign Potential" signings pay off? How many yield significant growth in the money invested, either through sales, or being key players in promotion sides? How many are average, and just run at the value that they cost, and how many are below average, and don't succeed at the level they step up to? My gut feel is that the distribution is skewed to the lower end of that scale - maybe as much as 50% to be less than average, 35% average and 15% above average. That can obviously be worked in your favour, if your talent identification capabilities are very strong - there's a few clubs that are successful at this. However, even those quoted, like Brentford, probably run at a loss on this. Their financial numbers haven't looked great for a good few years.

We have just had the most successful period that any of us can remember, with results delivered far outstripping resources available, yet the club, and many fans, want to see a complete departure from that. I believe, that a strong spine, with youngsters interspersed is probably the right way forward. You don't win anything with kids, was laughed at. If Alan Hansen had said you don't win anything with kids unless they are truly exceptional, he would have been right. I don't believe that the club has the necessary contacts, scouting network, or pull to attract truly exceptional youthful players, and this mantra of picking up players for £2-5m worries me. The chances of success in that space seem very slim.

Whilst I don't disagree that it's exciting to think of the potential upside of this strategy, the realist in me says that this is high risk, and likely to end in the club wasting the platform built up over the last 7 or 8 years. losing strong players, and investing in talent that eventually looks expensive, and putting us back close to square one of the Cotterill days.
Whilst I get your concern, I believe that "platform" has already been eroded.
(And let's not bother going into why ;) }

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by dandeclaret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:44 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:38 pm
Whilst I get your concern, I believe that "platform" has already been eroded.
(And let's not bother going into why ;) }
I believe that some of it has, but there's still plenty remaining, and there is a tipping point. If all of the key players leave (still unsure as to what the situation was with Ben Mee with some doubt on whether a contract was offered) and the club is stripped of most of the first team regulars (already at 4 really with Mee, Tarks, Pope and Wood having gone, plus Westwood out for a year) and we replace those all with "Young, future potential" signings, that's when I think the platform will have been completely eroded.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:50 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm
I feel that the new model is incredibly high risk. What percentage of "Sign Potential" signings pay off? How many yield significant growth in the money invested, either through sales, or being key players in promotion sides? How many are average, and just run at the value that they cost, and how many are below average, and don't succeed at the level they step up to? My gut feel is that the distribution is skewed to the lower end of that scale - maybe as much as 50% to be less than average, 35% average and 15% above average. That can obviously be worked in your favour, if your talent identification capabilities are very strong - there's a few clubs that are successful at this. However, even those quoted, like Brentford, probably run at a loss on this. Their financial numbers haven't looked great for a good few years.

We have just had the most successful period that any of us can remember, with results delivered far outstripping resources available, yet the club, and many fans, want to see a complete departure from that. I believe, that a strong spine, with youngsters interspersed is probably the right way forward. You don't win anything with kids, was laughed at. If Alan Hansen had said you don't win anything with kids unless they are truly exceptional, he would have been right. I don't believe that the club has the necessary contacts, scouting network, or pull to attract truly exceptional youthful players, and this mantra of picking up players for £2-5m worries me. The chances of success in that space seem very slim.

Whilst I don't disagree that it's exciting to think of the potential upside of this strategy, the realist in me says that this is high risk, and likely to end in the club wasting the platform built up over the last 7 or 8 years. losing strong players, and investing in talent that eventually looks expensive, and putting us back close to square one of the Cotterill days.
You thought 32 year old Jay Rodriguez was an effective PL striker while saying Weghorst was ineffective. (who had considerably better goal/assist numbers)

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by dandeclaret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:55 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:50 pm
You thought 32 year old Jay Rodriguez was an effective PL striker while saying Weghorst was ineffective. (who had considerably better goal/assist numbers)
I don't normally see your posts, unless you quote my post. This will be my only response. Assessing footballers / football matches is much more than a simple 2d analysis through selective stats.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:03 pm

my opinion is that with the increased wage expectations of established PL players there would always come a point where we would not be able to afford what we were becoming accustomed to.
And we have paid some (by our expected standards) serious money for players who were never going to positively affect our status.
At least a back-up squad including young and hungry players gives us 2 advantages over the old model.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:07 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:55 pm
I don't normally see your posts, unless you quote my post. This will be my only response. Assessing footballers / football matches is much more than a simple 2d analysis through selective stats.
Goals and assists is a pretty easy way to judge effectiveness and the most common way too. In your posts you also forget we have retained a ton of experienced players and we're adding youth around it.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by fatboy47 » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:10 pm

Boss Hogg wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:35 pm
We will be more competitive in most games and have a chance to watch some attractive football for the first time in ages.

Call me Mr Cautious , but I'll reserve judgement on this till I've actually seen a few games. If we get this wrong we could be getting dicked on a weekly basis, and there's nothing remotely entertaining about that.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by dandeclaret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:12 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:03 pm
my opinion is that with the increased wage expectations of established PL players there would always come a point where we would not be able to afford what we were becoming accustomed to.
And we have paid some (by our expected standards) serious money for players who were never going to positively affect our status.
At least a back-up squad including young and hungry players gives us 2 advantages over the old model.
I don't disagree that some of the stuff that stood the club in good stead has been lost, or not worked. Eg, having Pope as a backup to Heaton, Tarkowski as a back up to Keane, Taylor for Ward. Gibson didn't work, Bailey Peacock Farrell is an unknown. Up front they''ve not done enough, and it's questionable as to whether Brownhill progressed past the players he replaced, like Tarkowski and Pope did. But that sort of backs up the point of how hard it is to find those players, and integrate them over time, let alone find them and bank on them to provide the level of performance required to progress past where the investment would normally get the club.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by DCWat » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm
I feel that the new model is incredibly high risk. What percentage of "Sign Potential" signings pay off? How many yield significant growth in the money invested, either through sales, or being key players in promotion sides? How many are average, and just run at the value that they cost, and how many are below average, and don't succeed at the level they step up to? My gut feel is that the distribution is skewed to the lower end of that scale - maybe as much as 50% to be less than average, 35% average and 15% above average. That can obviously be worked in your favour, if your talent identification capabilities are very strong - there's a few clubs that are successful at this. However, even those quoted, like Brentford, probably run at a loss on this. Their financial numbers haven't looked great for a good few years.

We have just had the most successful period that any of us can remember, with results delivered far outstripping resources available, yet the club, and many fans, want to see a complete departure from that. I believe, that a strong spine, with youngsters interspersed is probably the right way forward. You don't win anything with kids, was laughed at. If Alan Hansen had said you don't win anything with kids unless they are truly exceptional, he would have been right. I don't believe that the club has the necessary contacts, scouting network, or pull to attract truly exceptional youthful players, and this mantra of picking up players for £2-5m worries me. The chances of success in that space seem very slim.

Whilst I don't disagree that it's exciting to think of the potential upside of this strategy, the realist in me says that this is high risk, and likely to end in the club wasting the platform built up over the last 7 or 8 years. losing strong players, and investing in talent that eventually looks expensive, and putting us back close to square one of the Cotterill days.
It’s definitely not an easy task - quite what we have that will set us apart from the raft of other clubs searching for these players remains to be seen.

The first part of that jigsaw is presumably Kompany. I was advocating a more experienced manager to try to return to the Premier League as quickly as possible. The more I think about his it though, the more I can see the merits (profile, pulling power, contacts, etc.) of his appointment, particularly in respect of this change in approach.

I agree about the need for experience - I think that’s vital. The likes of Cork, Taylor, Rodriguez etc. will have a big role to play, I’d have thought. Who knows, there may be some players brought in who will bring that too.

Ultimately, it’s probably about finding the right balance. Towards the end under Dyche, the balance was too heavily weighted in favour of the experienced older pros. The longevity of service (and success) saw our wage bill rise to huge levels for a club of our size, not moving players on became expensive through increasing wages and run down contracts.

The approach that we appear to be taking, presumably applies to under 23 levels too which makes allowing the academy to fall below the required standards for cat A all the more baffling.

Im liking the change of approach but agree that it needs to be an as well as, not an instead of. It’ll be interesting to see how we develop our scouting and infrastructure to support it.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by KRBFC » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:29 pm

DCWat wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 pm
It’s definitely not an easy task - quite what we have that will set us apart from the raft of other clubs searching for these players remains to be seen.

The first part of that jigsaw is presumably Kompany. I was advocating a more experienced manager to try to return to the Premier League as quickly as possible. The more I think about his it though, the more I can see the merits (profile, pulling power, contacts, etc.) of his appointment, particularly in respect of this change in approach.

I agree about the need for experience - I think that’s vital. The likes of Cork, Taylor, Rodriguez etc. will have a big role to play, I’d have thought. Who knows, there may be some players brought in who will bring that too.

Ultimately, it’s probably about finding the right balance. Towards the end under Dyche, the balance was too heavily weighted in favour of the experienced older pros. The longevity of service (and success) saw our wage bill rise to huge levels for a club of our size, not moving players on became expensive through increasing wages and run down contracts.

The approach that we appear to be taking, presumably applies to under 23 levels too which makes allowing the academy to fall below the required standards for cat A all the more baffling.

Im liking the change of approach but agree that it needs to be an as well as, not an instead of. It’ll be interesting to see how we develop our scouting and infrastructure to support it.
Not to worry, I just followed Vincent on Twitter and will be sending him the KRBFC scouting list shortly.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by dandeclaret » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:36 pm

DCWat wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 pm
It’s definitely not an easy task - quite what we have that will set us apart from the raft of other clubs searching for these players remains to be seen.

The first part of that jigsaw is presumably Kompany. I was advocating a more experienced manager to try to return to the Premier League as quickly as possible. The more I think about his it though, the more I can see the merits (profile, pulling power, contacts, etc.) of his appointment, particularly in respect of this change in approach.

I agree about the need for experience - I think that’s vital. The likes of Cork, Taylor, Rodriguez etc. will have a big role to play, I’d have thought. Who knows, there may be some players brought in who will bring that too.

Ultimately, it’s probably about finding the right balance. Towards the end under Dyche, the balance was too heavily weighted in favour of the experienced older pros. The longevity of service (and success) saw our wage bill rise to huge levels for a club of our size, not moving players on became expensive through increasing wages and run down contracts.

The approach that we appear to be taking, presumably applies to under 23 levels too which makes allowing the academy to fall below the required standards for cat A all the more baffling.

Im liking the change of approach but agree that it needs to be an as well as, not an instead of. It’ll be interesting to see how we develop our scouting and infrastructure to support it.
Listening to the new video, its' good to see that VK knows a lot of the stuff above..... it's now whether knowing it, can be put into a reality.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by DCWat » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:38 pm

KRBFC wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:29 pm
Not to worry, I just followed Vincent on Twitter and will be sending him the KRBFC scouting list shortly.
Bloody hell, I was looking forward to next season!
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:41 pm

bodge wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:58 pm
I think the model we have is the right one, partly because I don't think the club have a choice given the financial predicament.

Promotion of course would be fantastic but there would need to be significant investment to compete in the Premier League as we would not have the pedigree of Pope,Mee and Tarkowski to call upon.

We would likely be in a yo-yo scenario for a while whilst we improved the standard of the squad to have our next longer stay at the top table.
Very much this.

We're going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place if we get promoted (or relegated) like we always have been.

The difference now is the shift in who's running the club.

Welcome aboard the Burnley rollercoaster, there's no getting off until you're dead. 8-)

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by burnleytom » Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:42 pm

I’m very much with Dan on this and have said similar elsewhere.

Collins is the key example here. He is young and was well scouted and recruited. He is clearly ready to make the step up to Premier League level and has huge potential. However, he cost £12 million. Now, that’s cheap, when compared with what West Ham have just spent on a relatively unknown centre half or even what Leicester paid for Fofana. In that sense, we’ve done really well, and looks on paper to be a good strategy.

There is a key difference to what we are doing now though. THB might be a bit different, as he’s had a few loans and is England U21 captain, but if you look at Egan-Riley, Ballard and McNally, all are being picked up or bid for at £2 million or less. That’s a big difference to the Collins price in the other direction. If they are going to be ready to make the jump and are available for that, then why aren’t even a couple of the clubs outside of the ‘big six’ in the Premier League all over it? With their scouting systems and resources? We’re sort of meant to hope that we’re able to see what they can’t, after only a couple of years of working in this way, and find people for less than £5 million who can make it?

Can it work? Yes, and there’s two successful examples at the club, even if it’s not for much longer. However, both came at a much higher investment bracket, and it’s my fear that it’s that which marks the likelihood of success.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:15 am

Cheers for all the replies on this 👍🏻

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:29 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:41 pm
Very much this.

We're going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place if we get promoted (or relegated) like we always have been.

The difference now is the shift in who's running the club.

Welcome aboard the Burnley rollercoaster, there's no getting off until you're dead. 8-)

This is it

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:33 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:03 pm
my opinion is that with the increased wage expectations of established PL players there would always come a point where we would not be able to afford what we were becoming accustomed to.
And we have paid some (by our expected standards) serious money for players who were never going to positively affect our status.
At least a back-up squad including young and hungry players gives us 2 advantages over the old model.
I agree with this.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:51 pm

Has anyone at the club actually said that the model is to buy young and inexperienced players and develop to sell for a profit? I’ve read numerous times about our ‘new model’ and whilst I think it is probably the way we’re looking to go I think it’s more to do with necessity than an intentional u-turn in direction.

Due to the club’s debt and the need to trim the wage bill due to relegation we are having to sell our best players and replace them with unproven young players who by their very nature will have potential to improve and gain in value.

This is exciting in some ways, mainly due to how stale things had become around the club, but with uncertainty comes peril.

I was derided on another thread for suggesting that the players we’re bringing in from league one will be of a lesser quality than the more senior players we bought when we were in the Premier League.

Excited for the new season and looking forward to seeing some new players and a new approach on and off the pitch. I just think there’s a good chance some fans may realise that this isn’t going to be a cakewalk - and that the grass isn’t always greener.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:27 pm

The way forward is the Dyche way. You have a system based upon effective players and build a whole club ethos around it.

Both Madrid sides have proven that effective teams can out perform more talented ones.

Brighton have invested nearly £300 million on transfers - a net spend of nearly £200 million. Brentford have only spent 1 season in the PL. Arguably, their signing of Ericksen, not young by any means, helped them to maintain their PL place.

The reality is the wage bill goes through the roof in the PL and players get more expensive but prior to the takeover we had £80 million in the bank. And we went down on the last day of the season.

In the end, the facts point to the problem of poor quality leadership at the club, which caused relegation and not money.

And if anyone can cite a small town club that has spent 6 consecutives seasons in the PL without any external investment then it would help. What's the point of citing examples that have either spent a fortune or have not yet proven their model over a prolonged PL stay?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:32 pm

burnleytom wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:42 pm
I’m very much with Dan on this and have said similar elsewhere.

Collins is the key example here. He is young and was well scouted and recruited. He is clearly ready to make the step up to Premier League level and has huge potential. However, he cost £12 million. Now, that’s cheap, when compared with what West Ham have just spent on a relatively unknown centre half or even what Leicester paid for Fofana. In that sense, we’ve done really well, and looks on paper to be a good strategy.

There is a key difference to what we are doing now though. THB might be a bit different, as he’s had a few loans and is England U21 captain, but if you look at Egan-Riley, Ballard and McNally, all are being picked up or bid for at £2 million or less. That’s a big difference to the Collins price in the other direction. If they are going to be ready to make the jump and are available for that, then why aren’t even a couple of the clubs outside of the ‘big six’ in the Premier League all over it? With their scouting systems and resources? We’re sort of meant to hope that we’re able to see what they can’t, after only a couple of years of working in this way, and find people for less than £5 million who can make it?

Can it work? Yes, and there’s two successful examples at the club, even if it’s not for much longer. However, both came at a much higher investment bracket, and it’s my fear that it’s that which marks the likelihood of success.
You make a good point, which kind of undermines your conclusion.

There aren't 2 examples at the club because we are not in the PL. Both Mc Neil and Collins have potential but they are just PL players and if you tried to sell them in the PL then you/d have to replace them and the reality is who would you sell them too and who would you buy to replace them...!

As we know the PL is vicious and any mistakes result in relegation. We made 2 in 2018, which hurt us very badly.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by clarethomer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:45 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:51 pm
Has anyone at the club actually said that the model is to buy young and inexperienced players and develop to sell for a profit? I’ve read numerous times about our ‘new model’ and whilst I think it is probably the way we’re looking to go I think it’s more to do with necessity than an intentional u-turn in direction.

Due to the club’s debt and the need to trim the wage bill due to relegation we are having to sell our best players and replace them with unproven young players who by their very nature will have potential to improve and gain in value.

This is exciting in some ways, mainly due to how stale things had become around the club, but with uncertainty comes peril.

I was derided on another thread for suggesting that the players we’re bringing in from league one will be of a lesser quality than the more senior players we bought when we were in the Premier League.

Excited for the new season and looking forward to seeing some new players and a new approach on and off the pitch. I just think there’s a good chance some fans may realise that this isn’t going to be a cakewalk - and that the grass isn’t always greener.
https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... =2&t=62613

Interview from pace himself talks about developing youth and that he accepts that it is what is required to play the style of football he wants for Burnley.

Not sure if you can read in to the sell them for a profit but you would hope that is a natural output of this model if we dont want to be in the same position with an aging squad again?
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:49 pm

clarethomer wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:45 pm
https://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboa ... =2&t=62613

Interview from pace himself talks about developing youth and that he accepts that it is what is required to play the style of football he wants for Burnley.

Not sure if you can read in to the sell them for a profit but you would hope that is a natural output of this model if we dont want to be in the same position with an aging squad again?
And yet Pace gave Dyche a 4 year contract and based the whole premise of his approach on Dyche.

It was never going to work because you have to find and develop players within the system, which narrows the market of available players considerably.

I would say this is more a PR exercise distancing himself from Dyche than anything to do with football.

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