Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by clarethomer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:24 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:49 pm
And yet Pace gave Dyche a 4 year contract and based the whole premise of his approach on Dyche.

It was never going to work because you have to find and develop players within the system, which narrows the market of available players considerably.

I would say this is more a PR exercise distancing himself from Dyche than anything to do with football.
That’s your opinion.

To me it’s just the leader of an organisation setting their strategic vision for the years ahead.

Good opportunity to start a new.

I was simply helping Riley see where this vision of developing youth had been confirmed by the club.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by HalifaxClaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:43 am

Another point to consider with this new approach is if we went back up (a big IF), we would likely come straight back down sticking with a philosophy of playing football. That is based on observing the likes of Fulham and Norwich over the past couple of seasons.

If we have saleable assets we could be seeing a squad overhaul similar to what we are currently undergoing every couple of years. It certainly feels a whole lot more exciting that at any point over the past 5 years but I think that is down to the unknown.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by RVclaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:44 am

HalifaxClaret wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:43 am
Another point to consider with this new approach is if we went back up (a big IF), we would likely come straight back down sticking with a philosophy of playing football. That is based on observing the likes of Fulham and Norwich over the past couple of seasons.

If we have saleable assets we could be seeing a squad overhaul similar to what we are currently undergoing every couple of years. It certainly feels a whole lot more exciting that at any point over the past 5 years but I think that is down to the unknown.
Or you could observe the likes of Leeds and Brentford who have stayed up with a decent brand of football.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by clarethomer » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:15 am

A vision is just that.

We are being told that we are now aspiring to play possession based football. We have been successful being a team happy to not have possession.

I still remember the days where we could concede from us having a corner and getting into a mild panic if a team got into our defensive third.

We have then got used to being quite comfortable with defending.

Will be interesting to see how (and if) the new vision plays out.

I’m really looking forward to the season now. Not because I’m pro or anti anything. I’m just accepting that a new era is upon us and the rollercoaster of being a fan continues.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:19 am

You can see why the new direction is going to take some getting used to for some fans.

As much as many got bored and disillusioned with Dyche towards the end, I think his tactics got noticeably more negative as the investment stopped. I think clearly even he begun to believe that he could only work miracles for so long.

That being said, the grit of that style really correlated strongly with the type of place Burnley is. We got used to tough tackling, being difficult to beat and the respect that came with that from clubs that are much bigger than us.

This is truly a new era. I don't think a player like Scott Twine would have ever chosen us with Dyche at the helm.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:50 am

RVclaret wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:44 am
Or you could observe the likes of Leeds and Brentford who have stayed up with a decent brand of football.
You could observe that if you had completely forgotten that Leeds sacked the architect of that brand of football because the club and most intelligent commentators thought it was going to get them relegated.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:53 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:19 am
You can see why the new direction is going to take some getting used to for some fans.

As much as many got bored and disillusioned with Dyche towards the end, I think his tactics got noticeably more negative as the investment stopped. I think clearly even he begun to believe that he could only work miracles for so long.

That being said, the grit of that style really correlated strongly with the type of place Burnley is. We got used to tough tackling, being difficult to beat and the respect that came with that from clubs that are much bigger than us.

This is truly a new era. I don't think a player like Scott Twine would have ever chosen us with Dyche at the helm.
Scott Twine wouldn't have signed for a PL club because of Sean Dyche? Did his agent know something Stephen Defour's didn't?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by RVclaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:56 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:53 am
Scott Twine wouldn't have signed for a PL club because of Sean Dyche? Did his agent know something Stephen Defour's didn't?
Presume he means if we had Dyche now in the Championship. And Ryan Christie turned PL Burnley down last summer for Championship Bournemouth. I do agree that Scott Twine would not have chose Burnley (or even Dyche would not have wanted this type of player anyway).

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:00 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:53 am
Scott Twine wouldn't have signed for a PL club because of Sean Dyche? Did his agent know something Stephen Defour's didn't?
A. Burnley had played a lot more attractive football in the time prior to Defour's signing than they have in the previous two years.

B. We were turned down last season by a player who signed for a club in the league below for that exact reason.

If two clubs offer the same amount of money and a player believes he will suit another teams system more, they will always pick the team who they believe suits their playing style.

Not even a debate really, that's as much fact as you can imagine. No criticism of Dyche, it's just how it is.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:50 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:00 am
A. Burnley had played a lot more attractive football in the time prior to Defour's signing than they have in the previous two years.

B. We were turned down last season by a player who signed for a club in the league below for that exact reason.

If two clubs offer the same amount of money and a player believes he will suit another teams system more, they will always pick the team who they believe suits their playing style.

Not even a debate really, that's as much fact as you can imagine. No criticism of Dyche, it's just how it is.
Stephen Defour was an Anderlecht player who won championships in two different countries playing as a creative midfielder who scored the most audacious goal I've ever seen on the Turf.

Is Cornet not a creative player who played for a top European side? What about Robbie Brady - before his injury a very talented and creative midfielder? Or Mc Neil?

It seems hard not to see the assertion that forward thinking midfielders wouldn't sign for Dyche or Dyche wouldn't sign them as a criticism.

Neither seems to be a "fact" based on the evidence. The fact is that Dyche signed the most creative and naturally gifted creative midfielder I've seen on the Turf from a top European side and it was a success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t0iqCbWFyE

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by clarethomer » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:53 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:00 am
A. Burnley had played a lot more attractive football in the time prior to Defour's signing than they have in the previous two years.

B. We were turned down last season by a player who signed for a club in the league below for that exact reason.

If two clubs offer the same amount of money and a player believes he will suit another teams system more, they will always pick the team who they believe suits their playing style.

Not even a debate really, that's as much fact as you can imagine. No criticism of Dyche, it's just how it is.
You are spot on.

We have to move on. Best period of our clubs recent history but all good things come to an end. We have a chairman who wants us to play a different style of football and appears to have the calmness and understanding that now is the time to change what we are doing.

He is looking at a different way of approaching our next phase as a club. It's not about this being right, or wrong. It's not about VK or Dyche.

It is about a leader of an organisation who wants to make Burnley successful and sustainable. Whether he achieves it or not, will be debated in years to come. It is about making sure the club is aligned with that vision and having the people who are bought in to that vision. VK appears to be that person.

There is clear risk with any appointment so please don't take my post as being anti Dyche or pro Kompany because its not about that for me. Its about we have to do something now decisions have been made and I think the vision is a credible and sensible one to take given what we have learned in terms of being poor in the transfer market when trying to attract the right players with experience etc.

Another observation I would make is that for us to look at McNeil - he found confidence and form playing with different tactics towards the end of last season.

Yes we may not have been successful but it did show us that the team had to forego creativity at the expense of keeping a game tight. Not many players like McNeill would be actively be looking to come to Burnley based on how we played. The opportunity for us to do something different is now. I would be more worried if Pace was trying to carry on the underdog story of an unfashionable small club competing against the Goliaths of the world week in and week out.

This new approach feels more positive and to have a young manager who has pretty much won everything bar a World Cup - its more inspiring to me as a fan.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:00 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:50 am
Stephen Defour was an Anderlecht player who won championships in two different countries playing as a creative midfielder who scored the most audacious goal I've ever seen on the Turf.

Is Cornet not a creative player who played for a top European side? What about Robbie Brady - before his injury a very talented and creative midfielder? Or Mc Neil?

It seems hard not to see the assertion that forward thinking midfielders wouldn't sign for Dyche or Dyche wouldn't sign them as a criticism.

Neither seems to be a "fact" based on the evidence. The fact is that Dyche signed the most creative and naturally gifted creative midfielder I've seen on the Turf from a top European side and it was a success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t0iqCbWFyE
Before Defour came he was a literal crock. Nobody wanted to touch with him with the injury record he had. It was a huge risk and one that thankfully paid off.

McNeil came through the academy, I don't think there was any competition for Cornet and Brady so they are irrelevant also.

I'm not saying players would refuse to sign for Dyche, but I think more creative players would certainly select up more entertaining prospect over us any day of of the week.

It seems that is going to change under VK.

It's literally common sense.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Tinribs » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:26 am

Someone commented Brighton have thrown money at it? They have broke even on ins and outs over the last two seasons

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by RVclaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:45 am

Tinribs wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:26 am
Someone commented Brighton have thrown money at it? They have broke even on ins and outs over the last two seasons
Yep I believe Potter has one of the lowest net spends in the league since appointed

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:56 pm

Tinribs wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:26 am
Someone commented Brighton have thrown money at it? They have broke even on ins and outs over the last two seasons
They owe something upwards of £250m to their owner and made losses of £50m+ in each of the past couple of years. They very much have thrown money at it.
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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:15 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm
I feel that the new model is incredibly high risk. What percentage of "Sign Potential" signings pay off? How many yield significant growth in the money invested, either through sales, or being key players in promotion sides? How many are average, and just run at the value that they cost, and how many are below average, and don't succeed at the level they step up to? My gut feel is that the distribution is skewed to the lower end of that scale - maybe as much as 50% to be less than average, 35% average and 15% above average. That can obviously be worked in your favour, if your talent identification capabilities are very strong - there's a few clubs that are successful at this. However, even those quoted, like Brentford, probably run at a loss on this. Their financial numbers haven't looked great for a good few years.

We have just had the most successful period that any of us can remember, with results delivered far outstripping resources available, yet the club, and many fans, want to see a complete departure from that. I believe, that a strong spine, with youngsters interspersed is probably the right way forward. You don't win anything with kids, was laughed at. If Alan Hansen had said you don't win anything with kids unless they are truly exceptional, he would have been right. I don't believe that the club has the necessary contacts, scouting network, or pull to attract truly exceptional youthful players, and this mantra of picking up players for £2-5m worries me. The chances of success in that space seem very slim.

Whilst I don't disagree that it's exciting to think of the potential upside of this strategy, the realist in me says that this is high risk, and likely to end in the club wasting the platform built up over the last 7 or 8 years. losing strong players, and investing in talent that eventually looks expensive, and putting us back close to square one of the Cotterill days.
It's not like we're discarding all of our players and filling the team up with youngsters.

Hennessey with a couple of hundred premier league appearances, Lowton and Taylor with about 400 between them, Cork and Westwood with about 600, Rodriguez and Barnes with another 400 or so and then those less experienced like JBG, McNeil, Brownhill, Vydra, etc probably average out at about 100 each.

Chances are that half the team will have about 1,000 premier league appearances between them, that's a pretty experienced base to add some other promising players in.

And what's the alternative? We didn't have the option to retain the rest of that experienced spine and signing fully fledged replacements wouldn't be cheap and we wouldn't be able to sign them and the younger, Tarkowski style, players to fill the gaps in another season or two. There's no guarantee on experienced signings either, Dale Stephens, Jon Walters, Danny Drinkwater, Joe Hart, etc.

It's a risk but, unless we can find an exceptional manager that will virtually guarantee promotion to the Premier League, this is probably the time to do it.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Dingo » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:04 pm

jdrobbo wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:51 am
Since it became a very realistic likelihood that Burnley would get relegated, I’ve been thinking about our ‘model’ and how successful we’ve been with it historically, but also accepting that in truth, relegation probably came two or three years after it should, due to significant under-investment.

We will often hear the phrase ‘punching above our weight’, but when the previous chairman pulled in the old funding ropes, as we have already discussed, the writing was on the wall. But the main point of this message is around the growth of wages belonging to those players who have been with us for a long time…

When a club is successful, you try to keep your best players… consequently they get significantly improved contracts and in some cases, that has amounted to 2 or three new deals in the last 5 to 10 years.

It pains me to say it, but I totally understand why we have lost many of our significantly large wage earners, although I remain disappointed about losing Pope in the manner we have. I did agree with dandeclaret when he talked about asset stripping and risk…we need to be very careful too.

Getting to my point… I really like the idea of the new model: investing in young and hungry players, who have already had a bit of experience at this level, but with a lot of potential already against their name. It reminds me of Kieran Trippier, whilst at Barnsley and Ben Mee whilst at Leicester.

So let’s assume, that this is the way we will go with a significant number of incomings, my question is, should we get promoted in the next year or so… and that is a very big IF, how do we deal with the future incomings, whilst trying to re-establish ourselves as a top-flight club?

Is the answer buying players for 2-5 million and loaning them out to championship clubs (not league two) so that they’re ready much quicker and as a result, just slot back in a year or do later? This whilst at the same time, adding to the current crop with some premier league know-how…

It is also made me think about the feeder club model that some clubs have operated under in the past… taking players abroad and vice versa, to get experience, whilst still on the books of the parent club.

What is the way forward?
Interesting post. What the takeover has reinforced for me is the close alignment of the football model and the financial model. I’d perhaps neglected the latter in the last the decade as the PL years enabled us to operate sustainably and allowed Dyche to dictate footballing matters in terms of the model you mention as it was working well. But underpinning the ‘new’ model, given the nature of the ownership structure, is a major need to be at worst financially sustainable but at best profit generating - I’m assuming the investors behind ALK expect a return, although based on Pace’s comments, there currently seems to be little urgency about that in the short term, but it can’t last. It seems the new model you mention offers the most plausible way for a club our size to make money over time, as young and successful players (or assets) gain value and also offer lower financial risk in the first instance. Unless commercial income can cross-subsidise the footballing side of things but it’s unclear how that’s going for Pace. I don’t think we had much choice in terms of where we’re at with the ownership, but I’m just really hoping it works out and the freshness about the place with VK and his philosophy too makes me feel cautiously optimistic!

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by jdrobbo » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:02 pm

👍🏻

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:24 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:56 pm
They owe something upwards of £250m to their owner and made losses of £50m+ in each of the past couple of years. They very much have thrown money at it.
I suppose that figure could be made up in part by other expenditure besides transfers?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:03 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:24 pm
I suppose that figure could be made up in part by other expenditure besides transfers?
Well wages of course but you can't really split that out from transfers. The two major drivers for their losses are the big wage bill and big transfer fees.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by boatshed bill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:14 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:03 pm
Well wages of course but you can't really split that out from transfers. The two major drivers for their losses are the big wage bill and big transfer fees.
Could be other expenditure outside of staffing, I don't know.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:46 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:14 pm
Could be other expenditure outside of staffing, I don't know.
I'm not just guessing
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:57 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:15 pm
It's not like we're discarding all of our players and filling the team up with youngsters.

Hennessey with a couple of hundred premier league appearances, Lowton and Taylor with about 400 between them, Cork and Westwood with about 600, Rodriguez and Barnes with another 400 or so and then those less experienced like JBG, McNeil, Brownhill, Vydra, etc probably average out at about 100 each.

Chances are that half the team will have about 1,000 premier league appearances between them, that's a pretty experienced base to add some other promising players in.

And what's the alternative? We didn't have the option to retain the rest of that experienced spine and signing fully fledged replacements wouldn't be cheap and we wouldn't be able to sign them and the younger, Tarkowski style, players to fill the gaps in another season or two. There's no guarantee on experienced signings either, Dale Stephens, Jon Walters, Danny Drinkwater, Joe Hart, etc.

It's a risk but, unless we can find an exceptional manager that will virtually guarantee promotion to the Premier League, this is probably the time to do it.
Excellent post.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by agreenwood » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:14 pm

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:15 pm
It's not like we're discarding all of our players and filling the team up with youngsters.

Hennessey with a couple of hundred premier league appearances, Lowton and Taylor with about 400 between them, Cork and Westwood with about 600, Rodriguez and Barnes with another 400 or so and then those less experienced like JBG, McNeil, Brownhill, Vydra, etc probably average out at about 100 each.

Chances are that half the team will have about 1,000 premier league appearances between them, that's a pretty experienced base to add some other promising players in.

And what's the alternative? We didn't have the option to retain the rest of that experienced spine and signing fully fledged replacements wouldn't be cheap and we wouldn't be able to sign them and the younger, Tarkowski style, players to fill the gaps in another season or two. There's no guarantee on experienced signings either, Dale Stephens, Jon Walters, Danny Drinkwater, Joe Hart, etc.

It's a risk but, unless we can find an exceptional manager that will virtually guarantee promotion to the Premier League, this is probably the time to do it.
I generally agree with this. I like that we’re signing young, promising players with a reputation of being technically gifted. Hopefully they’ll compliment the experience we’ve retained. I’m genuinely interested in the season ahead for the first time in a few years. That’s not to say I don’t think Dyche did an amazing job, but putting the same side out year after year for a relegation scrap was beginning to feel stale.

Once we’d been relegated, the only other way forward would have brought in an older head with more of a track record and then go down the kind of route WBA have this summer in signing established Championship players. It would probably be safer, but wouldn’t have guaranteed success.

My two concerns about our approach are that firstly our fans might need to be patient with a younger, newer side which is trying to implement a new style. Patience isn’t always a characteristic in abundance around me in the JHU. Secondly promotion might not be realistic this season. For that reason, I hope the board are relaxed about that and confident that the finances of the club are robust enough to cope without an immediate return to the Premier League.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:40 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:15 pm
It's not like we're discarding all of our players and filling the team up with youngsters.

Hennessey with a couple of hundred premier league appearances, Lowton and Taylor with about 400 between them, Cork and Westwood with about 600, Rodriguez and Barnes with another 400 or so and then those less experienced like JBG, McNeil, Brownhill, Vydra, etc probably average out at about 100 each.

Chances are that half the team will have about 1,000 premier league appearances between them, that's a pretty experienced base to add some other promising players in.

And what's the alternative? We didn't have the option to retain the rest of that experienced spine and signing fully fledged replacements wouldn't be cheap and we wouldn't be able to sign them and the younger, Tarkowski style, players to fill the gaps in another season or two. There's no guarantee on experienced signings either, Dale Stephens, Jon Walters, Danny Drinkwater, Joe Hart, etc.

It's a risk but, unless we can find an exceptional manager that will virtually guarantee promotion to the Premier League, this is probably the time to do it.
It's also the whole point of employing a more stats based scouting system (AKA Moneyball technique) which significantly lowers the risk to the club. It's worked excellently Brentford.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Vegas Claret » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:38 am

dandeclaret wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:34 pm
I feel that the new model is incredibly high risk. What percentage of "Sign Potential" signings pay off? How many yield significant growth in the money invested, either through sales, or being key players in promotion sides? How many are average, and just run at the value that they cost, and how many are below average, and don't succeed at the level they step up to? My gut feel is that the distribution is skewed to the lower end of that scale - maybe as much as 50% to be less than average, 35% average and 15% above average. That can obviously be worked in your favour, if your talent identification capabilities are very strong - there's a few clubs that are successful at this. However, even those quoted, like Brentford, probably run at a loss on this. Their financial numbers haven't looked great for a good few years.
Collins, huge profit if he goes
Roberts large profit if he goes
Cornet profit if he goes
Brownhill profit if he goes

That's more than acceptable given how poor our previous 7 years of recruitment have been

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:47 am

Vegas Claret wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:38 am
Collins, huge profit if he goes
Roberts large profit if he goes
Cornet profit if he goes
Brownhill profit if he goes

That's more than acceptable given how poor our previous 7 years of recruitment have been
We finished 7th in the PL during that period and gained our first European place for 60 years.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:51 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:00 am
Before Defour came he was a literal crock. Nobody wanted to touch with him with the injury record he had. It was a huge risk and one that thankfully paid off.

McNeil came through the academy, I don't think there was any competition for Cornet and Brady so they are irrelevant also.

I'm not saying players would refuse to sign for Dyche, but I think more creative players would certainly select up more entertaining prospect over us any day of of the week.

It seems that is going to change under VK.

It's literally common sense.
Seriously, no one wanted Defour because he was a crock? Wasn't he still playing for Belgium at the time?

And no one wanted Cornet or Brady?

Really?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:53 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:51 am
Seriously, no one wanted Defour because he was a crock? Wasn't he still playing for Belgium at the time?

And no one wanted Cornet or Brady?

Really?
Defour played in 29 and 32 of the 34 league games in the 2 seasons prior to joining us. Not sure there is any point in lying when trying to back up your point

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:53 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:46 pm
I'm not just guessing
https://find-and-update.company-informa ... ng-history
Of course you aren't - it's well documented. Brighton spent nearly £300 million in the last 5 seasons.

Last season they spent over 70 million but re-couped a lot of it from the sale of one player.

That's what happens when you throw money at the squad you buy a lot of saleable assets.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:55 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:53 am
Defour played in 29 and 32 of the 34 league games in the 2 seasons prior to joining us. Not sure there is any point in lying when trying to back up your point
This is now getting silly, I never made any comment about the number of games he played.

I said he was a creative player signed by Sean Dyche.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:56 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:55 am
This is now getting silly, I never made any comment about the number of games he played.

I said he was a creative player signed by Sean Dyche.
I was agreeing with you when you claimed he was playing regular prior to us signing him.

Not sure what you read

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by RVclaret » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:56 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:55 am
This is now getting silly, I never made any comment about the number of games he played.

I said he was a creative player signed by Sean Dyche.
That for the first season got shunted out to left wing :lol:

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:59 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:56 am
I was agreeing with you when you claimed he was playing regular prior to us signing him.

Not sure what you read
Apologies, I read it as though you were accusing me of lying.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:10 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:15 pm
It's not like we're discarding all of our players and filling the team up with youngsters.

Hennessey with a couple of hundred premier league appearances, Lowton and Taylor with about 400 between them, Cork and Westwood with about 600, Rodriguez and Barnes with another 400 or so and then those less experienced like JBG, McNeil, Brownhill, Vydra, etc probably average out at about 100 each.

Chances are that half the team will have about 1,000 premier league appearances between them, that's a pretty experienced base to add some other promising players in.

And what's the alternative? We didn't have the option to retain the rest of that experienced spine and signing fully fledged replacements wouldn't be cheap and we wouldn't be able to sign them and the younger, Tarkowski style, players to fill the gaps in another season or two. There's no guarantee on experienced signings either, Dale Stephens, Jon Walters, Danny Drinkwater, Joe Hart, etc.

It's a risk but, unless we can find an exceptional manager that will virtually guarantee promotion to the Premier League, this is probably the time to do it.
I don't disagree with this; however, Cork, Westwood Rodriguez and Barnes are all well into their 30s and have had injury issues. Westwood won't be playing until after Xmas.

Any signing is a risk; however, the risk has to be increased if they have played at a lower level.

The reality we can't afford a prolonged stay in the Championship and this is baked into the approach. Buying Championship players will secure our Championship place but that's not good enough.

It is a hugely risky strategy for the club but the owners have little choice.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:14 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:51 am
Seriously, no one wanted Defour because he was a crock? Wasn't he still playing for Belgium at the time?

And no one wanted Cornet or Brady?

Really?
It was widely regarded that his knee was a ticking time bomb. It scuppered a move for him to Manchester United some years earlier.

Anderlecht knew he wasn't going to last long term and offloaded while they could.

They were proven correct, as he failed to play more than half of our league games over the course of three seasons with us.

It was a pleasure to have such a player at the Turf, but he would have been nowhere near us if he hadn't had that knee issue.

And if I am wrong about Brady and Cornet, can you name the teams that lodged competing bids for them?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:30 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:14 am
It was widely regarded that his knee was a ticking time bomb. It scuppered a move for him to Manchester United some years earlier.

Anderlecht knew he wasn't going to last long term and offloaded while they could.

They were proven correct, as he failed to play more than half of our league games over the course of three seasons with us.

It was a pleasure to have such a player at the Turf, but he would have been nowhere near us if he hadn't had that knee issue.

And if I am wrong about Brady and Cornet, can you name the teams that lodged competing bids for them?
Alex Ferguson had an interest in Defour but Defour broke a bone in his foot - your assertion that it was because his knee was a "ticking time bomb" is just you making stuff up.

He went onto play for a top European club after that...!

And neither of us necessarily know what competing clubs were in for players at any given time but Brady was an Irish international and Cornet was a quality player for a top French team.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:37 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:30 am
Alex Ferguson had an interest in Defour but Defour broke a bone in his foot - your assertion that it was because his knee was a "ticking time bomb" is just you making stuff up.

He went onto play for a top European club after that...!

And neither of us necessarily know what competing clubs were in for players at any given time but Brady was an Irish international and Cornet was a quality player for a top French team.
I mean again, I still don't even see how this is relevant to the original point..

"If a player is offered the same deal by two clubs and one suits their style better, they will choose the one that suits their style better"

We seem to be descending into a vortex.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:49 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:37 am
I mean again, I still don't even see how this is relevant to the original point..

"If a player is offered the same deal by two clubs and one suits their style better, they will choose the one that suits their style better"

We seem to be descending into a vortex.
The original point was:

"This is truly a new era. I don't think a player like Scott Twine would have ever chosen us with Dyche at the helm."

However, you are right we have descended into a vortex....!

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:09 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:49 am
The original point was:

"This is truly a new era. I don't think a player like Scott Twine would have ever chosen us with Dyche at the helm."

However, you are right we have descended into a vortex....!
Yes, I.E Scott Twine chose us over several other clubs chasing him.

I doubt he would have done that with Dyche at the helm. He stated clearly in his interview that Kompany's vision and philosophy was one of the keys to him making his decision.

It's the exact same point as what I said above.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by clarethomer » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:17 am

Glad that is all clear and decided now.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:31 am

My objection was not that Twine signed for the club because of Kompany - I agree players are likely to chose the club best placed to suit their style. And as you said, Christie chose Bournemouth for that reason albeit both and his father expressed their admiration for Dyche.

“Ryan could have gone straight to the Premier League with Burnley. He spoke to Sean Dyche, someone we’ve both got great admiration for,” Christie Sr adds.

However, I disagreed with the implication that creative midfielders did not or would not sign for Dyche. In fact, a number of creative midfielders signed for Dyche who were proven internationals and played for top European teams.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:33 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:31 am
My objection was not that Twine signed for the club because of Kompany - I agree players are likely to chose the club best placed to suit their style. And as you said, Christie chose Bournemouth for that reason albeit both and his father expressed their admiration for Dyche.

“Ryan could have gone straight to the Premier League with Burnley. He spoke to Sean Dyche, someone we’ve both got great admiration for,” Christie Sr adds.

However, I disagreed with the implication that creative midfielders did not or would not sign for Dyche. In fact, a number of creative midfielders signed for Dyche who were proven internationals and played for top European teams.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm glad that you disagree with something I never said. It's almost like this whole think wasn't a complete waste of both our time.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:44 am

UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:33 am
I'm glad that you disagree with something I never said. It's almost like this whole think wasn't a complete waste of both our time.
You said: "This is truly a new era. I don't think a player like Scott Twine would have ever chosen us with Dyche at the helm."

And my objection was this:

"However, I disagreed with the implication that creative midfielders did not or would not sign for Dyche."

I shall ponder the error of my ways.

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by UpTheClaretsFCBK » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:48 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:44 am
You said: "This is truly a new era. I don't think a player like Scott Twine would have ever chosen us with Dyche at the helm."

And my objection was this:

"However, I disagreed with the implication that creative midfielders did not or would not sign for Dyche."

I shall ponder the error of my ways.
Not because of Dyche and Dyche alone, but because he had several offers (He was asked why he chose Burnley in his 1st interview) on the table and one would suit his style better than Dyche's philosophy.

Did that not register when I started talking about the signings you were touting that we didn't have competition to sign?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by Vegas Claret » Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:57 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:47 am
We finished 7th in the PL during that period and gained our first European place for 60 years.
and ?

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Re: Old model v new model… young players, new wage structure…loans and feeder clubs?!?!?!

Post by clarethomer » Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:02 pm

Made me think about this place when I saw this....
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