Doctor pay rises / strikes

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Devils_Advocate
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:55 pm

bf2k wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:36 pm
Jesus I can tell you follow the socialist model. Without private business you don't have salaries. Without salaries you don't get taxes. Without taxes you don't have public services. Simples.
You haven't got a clue what I follow. I have no problem with private business and profits and people earning a lot of money but at the moment it isn't a fair marketplace and disproportionate power lies with those at the very top and it shows in the mess a lot of our society is in

You were the one who said noone needs more than a £100k per year in challenging whether doctors should be demanding more money in the middle of a cost of living crisis so what is your objection to an interim measure to tax all earnings over £100k?

The main contributor to the rise inflation in this country at the moment is profits and nothing to do with workers pay and whilst many workers have seen a decade of austerity and real term wage cuts the profits of big business has continued to soar.

If the government and the right wing press attacked the company's and shareholders making obscene profits instead of the workers demanding a fair pay then we could make some real progress around inflation and the cost of inflation crisis. Unfortunately the four groups I mentioned are are all one and the same and only care about their own interests and not the wider society.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by mdd2 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:08 pm

I dont care what happened to the French but you said yourself that in this cost of living crisis noone needs more than £100k per year so surely if it helps us all through this crisis you should be fine supporting an interim measure to tax earnings over that figure.
Interested to see how much you wish to increase the tax rates?
Since Mr Darling phased out the personal allowance for those earning over £100k the tax rate + NI meant the tax and NI rate was over 60%. Presently for income from £100k-£125.14K taxation is effectively 63.25% dropping to 43.5% up to £150k and then 48.5%
One of the reasons doctors are shunning additional paid work and retiring early is what Mr Darling introduced as an emergency measure after the crash

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:23 pm

mdd2 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:08 pm
I dont care what happened to the French but you said yourself that in this cost of living crisis noone needs more than £100k per year so surely if it helps us all through this crisis you should be fine supporting an interim measure to tax earnings over that figure.
Interested to see how much you wish to increase the tax rates?
Since Mr Darling phased out the personal allowance for those earning over £100k the tax rate + NI meant the tax and NI rate was over 60%. Presently for income from £100k-£125.14K taxation is effectively 63.25% dropping to 43.5% up to £150k and then 48.5%
One of the reasons doctors are shunning additional paid work and retiring early is what Mr Darling introduced as an emergency measure after the crash
I dont necessarily want to raise tax rates, I just threw it in to the posters objection of people striking when they dont need the money to highlight the hypocrisy when you suddenly apply that logic to the rich and he responded exactly as expected

The key steps I would want taking is to start aggressively going after tax loopholes and offshoring and look at a fairer tax system that focuses more on taxing wealth than taxing earnings.

The next step is making sure those taxes are redistributed properly and not syphoned off back into the rich's pockets as we have seen with some of the corruption and and complete financial mismanagement of the current govt

As for the here and now I said where the focus needs to be and that is on going after obscene profiteering and wage squeezing as this is currently the biggest contributor to the inflation and cost of living crisis and something we have the power to control

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by bf2k » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:39 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:55 pm
You haven't got a clue what I follow. I have no problem with private business and profits and people earning a lot of money but at the moment it isn't a fair marketplace and disproportionate power lies with those at the very top and it shows in the mess a lot of our society is in

You were the one who said noone needs more than a £100k per year in challenging whether doctors should be demanding more money in the middle of a cost of living crisis so what is your objection to an interim measure to tax all earnings over £100k?

The main contributor to the rise inflation in this country at the moment is profits and nothing to do with workers pay and whilst many workers have seen a decade of austerity and real term wage cuts the profits of big business has continued to soar.

If the government and the right wing press attacked the company's and shareholders making obscene profits instead of the workers demanding a fair pay then we could make some real progress around inflation and the cost of inflation crisis. Unfortunately the four groups I mentioned are are all one and the same and only care about their own interests and not the wider society.
The massive difference is the doctors are paid from a public purse. The private sector are paid for from a private purse. Private sector workers only get high salaries & bonus if the company financially performs well (OK there is a few examples of that being the case but only a few).

We've also got high inflation in part because the government has borrowed vast amounts of money to pay for COVID. So I tell you what lets pay more salaries to public sector workers, meaning more government borrowing and more inflation. You can't tax the hell out of people and companies because those people & companies won't stick around in the UK for too long to be taxed.

Tax loopholes & offshore accounts I agree need to be closed & regulated better.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Taffy on the wing » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:17 pm

There's a massive shortage of GP's in the USA.....they have to work long hours for low pay, they also have to spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with insurance companies. The trend is toward being a specialist.

GP's deserve every penny they make and more IMO.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Cirrus_Minor » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:01 pm

Amazing isn’t it, barristers striking now doctors and teachers are also talking about ‘withdrawing their labour’ Used to be miners, dockers and car workers. Nurses are having to rely on good banks. I think the cost of living crisis will encourage many more and good luck to them all.

Company and private profits are souring and the gap between rich and poor is getting wider. What about‘levelling up’.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by mdd2 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:12 pm

The present problems )and as has been alluded to inflation arising from printing money during covid) will certainly level down

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:19 pm

bf2k wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:36 pm
Jesus I can tell you follow the socialist model. Without private business you don't have salaries. Without salaries you don't get taxes. Without taxes you don't have public services. Simples.
You wonder just how far down the rabbit hole you have to go before you start defending vast wealth as somehow not taxable, but at the same time want doctors to be paid a pittance

I mean, I think I've met you, and you are certainly older than me

You are going to need doctors a lot more than you need rich people telling you that if they pay proper taxes, that would destroy the economy

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by bf2k » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:18 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:19 pm
You wonder just how far down the rabbit hole you have to go before you start defending vast wealth as somehow not taxable, but at the same time want doctors to be paid a pittance

I mean, I think I've met you, and you are certainly older than me

You are going to need doctors a lot more than you need rich people telling you that if they pay proper taxes, that would destroy the economy
The country cannot afford the wage rises. I don't know how else I can say it. If the country could then pay them more pay them by all means but it can't. However, for doctors to say they can't afford to live (which they have been saying) that's rubbish.

I'm also not saying the rich shouldn't pay tax but you tax them too much and they won't be here, they'll leave. I'm also one of those that believes in working and working hard. I studied hard and long to get where I am now. Why should I be taxed to high heaven because I've worked to get to where I am? How's that a fair tax system (and for the record I'm on nowhere near a GPs salary, nowhere near)?

When have we met? Got me worried now :D

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by dougcollins » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:41 pm

We would have been much further down this road if it hadn't been for Covid - the Govt had to backtrack and start saying how wonderful is our NHS.

A poorly performing NHS smooths the way to total privatisation.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:54 pm

bf2k wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:18 pm
The country cannot afford the wage rises. I don't know how else I can say it. If the country could then pay them more pay them by all means but it can't. However, for doctors to say they can't afford to live (which they have been saying) that's rubbish.

I'm also not saying the rich shouldn't pay tax but you tax them too much and they won't be here, they'll leave. I'm also one of those that believes in working and working hard. I studied hard and long to get where I am now. Why should I be taxed to high heaven because I've worked to get to where I am? How's that a fair tax system (and for the record I'm on nowhere near a GPs salary, nowhere near)?

When have we met? Got me worried now :D
The country could afford it if we weren't ignoring reality, but we have decided to

If you want good public services, then it has to come from tax, and there is nothing wrong with those that can pay tax paying more, especially if we are talking about people with millions or billions of pounds

I met have mis remembered so don't panic! :D

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:01 am

bf2k wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:36 pm
Jesus I can tell you follow the socialist model. Without private business you don't have salaries. Without salaries you don't get taxes. Without taxes you don't have public services. Simples.
Bo***cks!

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:18 am

Cirrus_Minor wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:01 pm
Amazing isn’t it, barristers striking now doctors and teachers are also talking about ‘withdrawing their labour’ Used to be miners, dockers and car workers. Nurses are having to rely on good banks. I think the cost of living crisis will encourage many more and good luck to them all.

Company and private profits are souring and the gap between rich and poor is getting wider. What about‘levelling up’.
There's definitely something stirring on both sides of the Atlantic.....& it's about time.
Many of the gains which workers achieved in the past have been eroded or have disappeared.....40hr week...paid holidays, sick days etc etc.
People are stretched to the limit & being asked to give more & more but getting less & less in return....something has got to give.

I was very impressed with Mick Lynch & the way he handled the attacks against himself & the rail workers....from political mouthpieces to TV personalities, it seems like a long time since i've seen someone like him....has a sense of humor too.

In short ....the gap between haves and have nots is too large!

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by fanzone » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am

The sooner the NHS is privatised the better for everyone involved, workers and patients.

Start teaching first aid in the school curriculum from year 9 for 2 hours a week and the country will be in much safer hands everywhere.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Loyal Supporter » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:51 am

fanzone wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am
The sooner the NHS is privatised the better for everyone involved, workers and patients.

Start teaching first aid in the school curriculum from year 9 for 2 hours a week and the country will be in much safer hands everywhere.
Do you have any idea just how much you will have to pay for basic medical care under a privatised NHS. So a first aid course for kids will sort a broken leg, or a cardiac arrest or cancer?

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Inchy » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:53 am

Working class people arguing with other working class people about how little they should earn.

Playing right into their hands
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Billy Balfour » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:25 am

'Clap for Key Workers, eh'? Time to replace the 'L' with an 'R'.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Roosterbooster » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:01 am

fanzone wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am
The sooner the NHS is privatised the better for everyone involved, workers and patients.

Start teaching first aid in the school curriculum from year 9 for 2 hours a week and the country will be in much safer hands everywhere.
A privatised NHS is not better for everyone. It isn't better for poor people. It isnt better for people who need extremely expensive treatment. It isn't necessarily better for rich people either, because a profit driven system rather than a patient care driven system can result in unnecessary investigations and treatments. And it isn't better for all workers, because it could seriously reduce the quality of training. I work in the NHS; I don't want it privatised, and I don't know anyone I work with who does.

I agree that young people should be taught first aid, and about health promotion, as prevention is more effective than cure. But to suggest that good first aid would solve any significant proportion of the problem is nonsensical.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:10 am

Inchy wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:53 am
Working class people arguing with other working class people about how little they should earn.

Playing right into their hands
Exactly this. Some people are so brainwashed into their bootlicking mentality, they'd rather we made normal people a bit worse off than tax a billionaire who'd happily watch them die on an NHS waiting list rather than pay a fair share back into the system.

Like a newspaper baron, a hedge fund manager or a Tory MP gives a s**t about any of you. But there's plenty who'll happily sing whatever tune they tell them to.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:21 am

Don't rely on billionaires to pay for the NHS. If every billionaire in Britain gave up all their combined worldwide wealth to the NHS, it still wouldn't be enough to pay for it for a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... _net_worth
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/n ... 20services.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by martin_p » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:28 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:21 am
Don't rely on billionaires to pay for the NHS. If every billionaire in Britain gave up all their combined worldwide wealth to the NHS, it still wouldn't be enough to pay for it for a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... _net_worth
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/n ... 20services.
It’s an utterly meaningless point, but yes it would, several times over!

https://news.sky.com/story/sunday-time ... s-12617181

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by aggi » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:31 am

Roosterbooster wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:01 am
A privatised NHS is not better for everyone. It isn't better for poor people. It isnt better for people who need extremely expensive treatment. It isn't necessarily better for rich people either, because a profit driven system rather than a patient care driven system can result in unnecessary investigations and treatments. And it isn't better for all workers, because it could seriously reduce the quality of training. I work in the NHS; I don't want it privatised, and I don't know anyone I work with who does.

I agree that young people should be taught first aid, and about health promotion, as prevention is more effective than cure. But to suggest that good first aid would solve any significant proportion of the problem is nonsensical.
To be fair though, imagine how rubbish Breaking Bad would have been in a country with the NHS.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:42 am

martin_p wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:28 am
It’s an utterly meaningless point, but yes it would, several times over!

https://news.sky.com/story/sunday-time ... s-12617181
Different lists. Yours is more up to date, but on the other hand it also includes non-British people who just live here. The practicalities of getting them to pay "their fair share of tax" are insurmountable.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by martin_p » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:51 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:42 am
Different lists. Yours is more up to date, but on the other hand it also includes non-British people who just live here. The practicalities of getting them to pay "their fair share of tax" are insurmountable.
So we shouldn’t fairly tax the rest? Just for more context, just the increase in wealth over the last 12 months of the 177 British billionaires would pay for about 30% of the NHS.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Inchy » Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:54 am

Capitalism is failing. Im not saying socialism is the answer but something needs to change.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:30 am

fanzone wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:02 am
The sooner the NHS is privatised the better for everyone involved, workers and patients.

Start teaching first aid in the school curriculum from year 9 for 2 hours a week and the country will be in much safer hands everywhere.
Are you saying it should be privatised but still financed the same way and "free at point of use"?
Or are you wanting a US style model that has led to medical bills being the number one reason for bankruptcy in the USA and where people die rather than getting treatment for simple procedures?

I've considered the first option for a while now, the 2nd one is just stupid.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:51 am

Inchy wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:54 am
Capitalism is failing. Im not saying socialism is the answer but something needs to change.
Capitalism is supposed to be around free market forces but we do not have that because the companys and the rich bosses and shareholders hold to much power and influence and ensure that the market is rigged to make it more difficult for the worker to earn their fair share than it is for those at the tops.

We dont need socialism but instead a free market but where the state can have some influence to ensure that where required we ensure extra help and support is giving to those who need it.

The trouble at the moment is that instead of the state having the influence over big business it is big business that has unduly influence over the state (Leveson, PPE fast lanes, politician conflict of interests etc) and the relationship between Govt ministers, press barons and big business is one of the biggest dangers to our democracy.

Free market capitalism undoubtedly can drive growth and wealth and incentivises people to work hard and succeed which can in turn do lots of good for a society but it has to be managed and governed by the state to ensure that it works for all of society and that the interests of all are served with more focus on helping those at the bottom than helping those at the top

Its telling that as soon as people try and suggest a fairer way of redistribution of wealth our media owned by the rich elite cry socialism and peddle scare story's (sadly this approach as even been adopted by our current government) and as we've seen in this thread some people swallow it up completely.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:03 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:30 am
Are you saying it should be privatised but still financed the same way and "free at point of use"?
Or are you wanting a US style model that has led to medical bills being the number one reason for bankruptcy in the USA and where people die rather than getting treatment for simple procedures?

I've considered the first option for a while now, the 2nd one is just stupid.
There are other options. European systems, for example.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:05 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:03 am
There are other options. European systems, for example.
Yes, some of those are part mandatory insurance and part state funded aren't they?

The problem there would be changing the mindset of the entire country to a system like that when we've had the current system for so long.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:08 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:03 am
There are other options. European systems, for example.
We are at the "Dsr backing European solutions" stage of the debate
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:10 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:05 am
Yes, some of those are part mandatory insurance and part state funded aren't they?

The problem there would be changing the mindset of the entire country to a system like that when we've had the current system for so long.
It might, at that.

But you're right to ask what sort of privatisation people mean. The entire principle behind the NHS is free at point of use to all who need it - how that happens is irrelevant. So those that complain about Americans running hospitals and getting paid to do so, or for that matter GPs running surgeries and getting paid to do so, are arguing only about the mechanics of how we do the free-at-point-of-use bit. Not about the principles of the NHS.

Whether we should go away from the current free-at-point-of-use taxpayer funded system, to some sort of alternative, that's the discussion of principle that is never done in politics. Perhaps it should be. But I doubt the American way would be an option.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:11 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:08 am
We are at the "Dsr backing European solutions" stage of the debate
I haven't backed anything.

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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by cheshireclaret11 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:30 am

As someone who lives with a GP trainee, I just wanted to say a few things from a real life example.

We (myself included previously) think Dr's are paid a hefty, some, on the face of it, yes, this much is true. However, when a GP says they "can't afford to live", surely that should be worrying?

They do not work the "9 to 5" which it's suggested they do, I've often dinner on the table at 6 and she's not home as she's seeing an extra patient or writing prescriptions. She leaves the house at 8:15 every morning for an 8:30 start to sign prescriptions and do extra admin (referrals and the like).

They'd love to see more patients than they do. The population of England and Wales has just risen 6% so that's 6% more people to see. If I had responsibilities added to my job description, I'd be questioning my pay as well.

Dr's also have vast fees. I know that my partner pays indemnity insurance, BMA memberships, RCGP membership, they have to buy into the practice they will work at professionally, pay for their own exams (after 6 years of expensive medical school) the list goes on.

So, if you take that out of an annual salary, they are paid a pittance for the stress that's put on them. Make one wrong move with a prescription or illness and someone's there waiting to take them down and get you in front of a court.

The cost of living and petrol is up, they also do house calls which rack up petrol cost which should be an expense but many surgeries see it as expected. When you bring in the context, good on the Doctor's for finally feeling they can speak up.

They are experts and we should be immensely grateful (although I'm biased) to have a free healthcare system with highly trained professionals. And, they are all good people, generally, who want to help and genuinely care about the people they're charged with looking after.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:33 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:03 am
There are other options. European systems, for example.
Trouble is our current Govt are not interested in any European models and are already deep in discussion with the USA private health company's to try and follow that model. Its not surprising as after all thats how them and all their cronies will make their millions regardless of if the system only works for those at the top.

If you're interested in exploring a more European style healthcare system then you're gonna need to vote out the Tories and get people into government interested in improving the healthcare system for all rather than lining their own pockets.
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