Doctor pay rises / strikes
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
could do without these characters striking !
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I don’t think there’s any doubt that GP’s work hard. The issue is you can’t get in a bloody surgery to see them doing so!
GP’s surgeries need to be forced to reopen properly by the Government and all NHS services need explicit instructions to do the same.
Phone appointments can remain if convenient to the patient but otherwise should be face to face.
GP’s surgeries need to be forced to reopen properly by the Government and all NHS services need explicit instructions to do the same.
Phone appointments can remain if convenient to the patient but otherwise should be face to face.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I'd rip their arm off if I was the minister responsible. Can't see inflation over the next 5yrl being lower than that.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Everyone wants a pay rise after a few years without one.
Only the politicians have been getting pay rises in line with inflation.
Only the politicians have been getting pay rises in line with inflation.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I don’t understand why we don’t have more GP’s? It’s impossible to see one at the moment
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I think the money is in being a free lance consultant/specialist at the minute.claptrappers_union wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:50 amI don’t understand why we don’t have more GP’s? It’s impossible to see one at the moment
They charge up to 500 quid a day as the NHS hasn't got enough cards in doctors to cope.
If you're going to give up 7 years of your life training, it might as well be financially rewarding.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
That reminded me to ring my docs, to arrange a callback so they can start the process for something for me... because I'm no longer able to book appointments for the future, only same day stuff available now.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
We've lost about 1600 full-time equivalent GPs in the last 5 years.claptrappers_union wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:50 amI don’t understand why we don’t have more GP’s? It’s impossible to see one at the moment
One reason is a bad interaction between the old pension scheme and the freeze in the annual allowance - for many GPs in their 60s they are better off retiring than staying at work (with some being hit with a tax bill of up to half of their take-home pay) or at the least reducing their hours significantly. Tony Goldstone of the BMA has been flagging this for some time and has some great clear stuff on twitter outlining this.
Otherwise GP has historically struggled to recruit compared to other medical specialties as it is long days seeing undifferentiated patients without the support that is inherit within working within a hospital. GP practices have had to close as a result due to difficulties recruiting.
Because of the long hours + lots of admin that often has to be done in their own time many GPs choose to go less than full time or take on other roles for some of their timetable (working in EDs, CCGs doing occupational health stuff etc.)
Despite having fewer GPs there are similar numbers of appointments being made as before the pandemic and two thirds of these are face to face.
The reason it's harder to get a GP appointment is because there are more patients, an older population requiring more medical care, fewer practices and most importantly fewer doctors.
The idea they're sat at work twiddling their thumbs refusing to see you is nonsense.
good stuff from the BMA here
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Pay is all relevant.
What is a fortune for so.e, is peanuts to someone else.
Doctors do a lot of hard, difficult training, and deserve their pay, but 33% , anyway you look at it, is greed.
Surgeons and GPs working until they are 65, are doing so out of a love for the job, or sense of duty. None of them are doing it because they can't afford to retire.
Covid, and now this war, we're always going to push inflation up . The loss of revenue, the increase in expenditure, its just an inevitable fact.
The government need to prioritise those who will be hit hardest, the low paid, those on benefits, before paying well paid Doctors and train drivers a penny.
What is a fortune for so.e, is peanuts to someone else.
Doctors do a lot of hard, difficult training, and deserve their pay, but 33% , anyway you look at it, is greed.
Surgeons and GPs working until they are 65, are doing so out of a love for the job, or sense of duty. None of them are doing it because they can't afford to retire.
Covid, and now this war, we're always going to push inflation up . The loss of revenue, the increase in expenditure, its just an inevitable fact.
The government need to prioritise those who will be hit hardest, the low paid, those on benefits, before paying well paid Doctors and train drivers a penny.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Fully agree...but train drivers aren't striking. It's the rest of the train staff/rail networkColburn_Claret wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:16 amPay is all relevant.
What is a fortune for so.e, is peanuts to someone else.
Doctors do a lot of hard, difficult training, and deserve their pay, but 33% , anyway you look at it, is greed.
Surgeons and GPs working until they are 65, are doing so out of a love for the job, or sense of duty. None of them are doing it because they can't afford to retire.
Covid, and now this war, we're always going to push inflation up . The loss of revenue, the increase in expenditure, its just an inevitable fact.
The government need to prioritise those who will be hit hardest, the low paid, those on benefits, before paying well paid Doctors and train drivers a penny.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Don’t blame your GP’s, you might want to have a word with the Tories & their re-structure they carried out a couple of years ago, they were told it would end up a shambles by the doctors themselves.
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
What was the restructure two years ago?Stockbrokerbelt wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:33 amDon’t blame your GP’s, you might want to have a word with the Tories & their re-structure they carried out a couple of years ago, they were told it would end up a shambles by the doctors themselves.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
My GP practice in Pendle has three partners. Two of the partners see patients for 2-3 sessions per week. The rest of their time is taken up with chairing steering committees and non-NHS work. Their NHS income accounts for a fraction of the other incomes they are generating. One of these 'partners' can regularly be seen on weekdays in the wine bars of Barrowford (when not at the Trafford Centre) and then they post on social media about how hard they are working. The practice pretty much closed its doors during lockdown and it is still only allowing a very limited appointment system, where you will more than likely see, either a locum or a trainee GP.
....On the other hand, there are GP practices that have stayed open throughout Covid and have continued to offer a fantastic service.
....On the other hand, there are GP practices that have stayed open throughout Covid and have continued to offer a fantastic service.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I'm not a GP. But I am a doctor. We have a massive shortage of GPs. We all moan about GPs, but in reality, its the fault of the system, not the individual. I know a few very well, personally, and they do stupid hours, and have to see an incredible number of patients in a short period of time.
If I had a choice, there's no way I'd be a GP. It's not worth the hassle for the pay they get. And they are struggling to attract.
The only way to sort the issue is pay them more. Much, much more...
If I had a choice, there's no way I'd be a GP. It's not worth the hassle for the pay they get. And they are struggling to attract.
The only way to sort the issue is pay them more. Much, much more...
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Well done, rooster, a healthy dose of realism, no pun intended.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it, this government screwing up, not taking advice, creating shortages and then blaming others....
Sounds familiar, doesn't it, this government screwing up, not taking advice, creating shortages and then blaming others....
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
There is so much red tape involved now it is unbelievable. Scrap much of the form filling etc and use the people who create forms and red tape salaries to properly reward GPs.
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
What I struggle with is that people can’t see the link between not being able to get an appointment with a GP and lack of pay rises. The reason the NHS don’t have the GPs to meet the demand is the same as the reason we no longer have Nick Pope and James Tarkowski, someone elsewhere is prepared to pay them more for their skills.
Last edited by martin_p on Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Love these posts calling GPs and stating it's impossible to see one.
Why aren't there more? Anyone care to join the dots...
Why aren't there more? Anyone care to join the dots...
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I'd agree with that sentiment if it wasn't for the NHS paying to train the Doctors and if the average wage for a Doctor was above £80k/year, with most pushing £100k/yr. That means a 33% pay rise would mean another £26-33k per year!!!martin_p wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:00 pmWhat I struggle with is that people can’t see the link between not being able to get an appointment with a GP and lack of pay rises. The reason the NHS don’t have the GPS to meet the demand is the same as the reason we no longer have Nick Pope and James Tarkowski, someone elsewhere is prepared to pay them more for their skills.
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Yes, but they can get more working outside the NHS, that’s my point. I’ll admit they are large amounts compared to the average wage, but not when compared to the private sector.
Extending my analogy the likes of Pope and Tarkowski were earning an absolute mint compared to me and you, but not compared to other players at bigger clubs.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
33% sounds dramatic, until you divide it by 5.
6.6%
6.6%
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Doctors pay tuition fees, under the new scheme this can mean they pay >£100,000 over the course of their career. The largest cost of "training" post-graduate doctors to the NHS is paying their salary. I have to pay for my membership to my royal college (£300 a year) plus all of my post-graduate exams (these can cost up to £700 each).
I've been a doctor for 7 years I work full time as a specialist registrar. If I got a 30% payrise I'd still be well under 100k.
If we made as much as the general public think we do we wouldn't be talking about a strike!
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
What they are actually asking for is their income to be reinstated to 2008 levels following a 30% loss of real terms earnings over time. Don't let the Daily Mail be the source of your facts.
As for not being open during covid; who do you think took on all the work as hospitals were cancelling pretty much all elective care.
Can't get to see a GP; not enough to go around and a year on year increase in demand means there are simply not enough GP appointments available to meet demand.
Can't recruit more as there are fewer GP's going spare than vacancies.
Can't attract newly qualified doctors as they will all do a placement in general practice during their training for some reason don't want to work as a GP after qualifying which seems strange if they don't open their doors and sit in wine bars all day with a huge salary.
As for quoted figures on pay, GP's are traditionally self employed contractors who pay their own pension, own NI etc, They headline rate in the tory press likes to quote doesn't seem to paint the whole story.
It's well remunerated compared to many jobs but the suggestion of it being a doddle is far from reality.
I'm done.
As for not being open during covid; who do you think took on all the work as hospitals were cancelling pretty much all elective care.
Can't get to see a GP; not enough to go around and a year on year increase in demand means there are simply not enough GP appointments available to meet demand.
Can't recruit more as there are fewer GP's going spare than vacancies.
Can't attract newly qualified doctors as they will all do a placement in general practice during their training for some reason don't want to work as a GP after qualifying which seems strange if they don't open their doors and sit in wine bars all day with a huge salary.
As for quoted figures on pay, GP's are traditionally self employed contractors who pay their own pension, own NI etc, They headline rate in the tory press likes to quote doesn't seem to paint the whole story.
It's well remunerated compared to many jobs but the suggestion of it being a doddle is far from reality.
I'm done.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Wonder where the dramatic headline came from!
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I honestly don't think £100k a year is enough for a doctor, it might be to your average northerner but most company directors and folk that work in a city will earn just as much if not a hell of a lot more.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
We were talking to a Medical student a couple of weeks ago about what he intended to specialise in when he qualified. His response - not sure yet as I haven’t done all my specialisms yet. But not General Practice - impossible numbers of patients on the roll, not enough doctors in the practice, you rarely get to see the outcome for the patients you see and the hours are just shocking…..Guppyspotter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:10 pmWhat they are actually asking for is their income to be reinstated to 2008 levels following a 30% loss of real terms earnings over time. Don't let the Daily Mail be the source of your facts.
As for not being open during covid; who do you think took on all the work as hospitals were cancelling pretty much all elective care.
Can't get to see a GP; not enough to go around and a year on year increase in demand means there are simply not enough GP appointments available to meet demand.
Can't recruit more as there are fewer GP's going spare than vacancies.
Can't attract newly qualified doctors as they will all do a placement in general practice during their training for some reason don't want to work as a GP after qualifying which seems strange if they don't open their doors and sit in wine bars all day with a huge salary.
As for quoted figures on pay, GP's are traditionally self employed contractors who pay their own pension, own NI etc, They headline rate in the tory press likes to quote doesn't seem to paint the whole story.
It's well remunerated compared to many jobs but the suggestion of it being a doddle is far from reality.
I'm done.
Who can blame him! Lovely lad - thinks it will be hospital medicine for him.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
NHS spending and defence spending have never both peaked at once, one eased as the other rose. That may now change because having a country at all is more important than having this many people in it. Add to that the increase in benefits, increase in debt interest and the ageing population and it isn’t hard to see income tax needing to go up by 10% to compensate.
Pay rises need to go in that context. It’s hard to see it all as affordable in the medium term.
Pay rises need to go in that context. It’s hard to see it all as affordable in the medium term.
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
This is the free market that the Tories claim to be all about. If you don't pay people well enough they'll withdraw their labour.
To put the salaries into perspective, a new solicitor at a big law firm will be starting on a six figure salary.
I think the recent inflation has brought things to a head but it's been a long running problem. The last ten years or so have seen large real terms pay cuts in the public (or publicly funded) sector. There was the barrister's strike yesterday and plenty of other areas are considering it.
To put the salaries into perspective, a new solicitor at a big law firm will be starting on a six figure salary.
I think the recent inflation has brought things to a head but it's been a long running problem. The last ten years or so have seen large real terms pay cuts in the public (or publicly funded) sector. There was the barrister's strike yesterday and plenty of other areas are considering it.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Excellent post. My son in law is a gp and works unbelievable hours. You have summed it up perfectly.milkcrate_mosh wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:06 amWe've lost about 1600 full-time equivalent GPs in the last 5 years.
One reason is a bad interaction between the old pension scheme and the freeze in the annual allowance - for many GPs in their 60s they are better off retiring than staying at work (with some being hit with a tax bill of up to half of their take-home pay) or at the least reducing their hours significantly. Tony Goldstone of the BMA has been flagging this for some time and has some great clear stuff on twitter outlining this.
Otherwise GP has historically struggled to recruit compared to other medical specialties as it is long days seeing undifferentiated patients without the support that is inherit within working within a hospital. GP practices have had to close as a result due to difficulties recruiting.
Because of the long hours + lots of admin that often has to be done in their own time many GPs choose to go less than full time or take on other roles for some of their timetable (working in EDs, CCGs doing occupational health stuff etc.)
Despite having fewer GPs there are similar numbers of appointments being made as before the pandemic and two thirds of these are face to face.
The reason it's harder to get a GP appointment is because there are more patients, an older population requiring more medical care, fewer practices and most importantly fewer doctors.
The idea they're sat at work twiddling their thumbs refusing to see you is nonsense.
good stuff from the BMA here
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Pray tell
Anyone know if it is split equally at 6.6% per annum?
I was talking to a GP this weekend. I got him to explain where this increase in workload and difficulty in seeing a GP has come from.
His replies made sense.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Imho Doctors are over rated.
If you have serious health concerns don't let your GP play with your life, ask for an immediate referral to see a consultant and if you can afford pay the £274.00 to go private, he will then advise on the way forward not a jack of all trades and a master of none .
If you have serious health concerns don't let your GP play with your life, ask for an immediate referral to see a consultant and if you can afford pay the £274.00 to go private, he will then advise on the way forward not a jack of all trades and a master of none .
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
2008 was the year they had a 30% pay rise and were relieved of the obligation to provide care at evenings and weekends. They wouldn't be asking for income to be reinstated to 2007!Guppyspotter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:10 pmWhat they are actually asking for is their income to be reinstated to 2008 levels following a 30% loss of real terms earnings over time. Don't let the Daily Mail be the source of your facts.
Is the 30% loss of earning because GPs have genuninely been getting hardly any pay rises of the time (about 15% actual rises over 13 years would result in a 30% drop in infaltion-adjusted earnings), or is it because so many more of them work part time now? I can see a report from 2016 that shows the average GP earns 30% less in real terms than then years earlier, but that specifically refers to individuals' actual pay and does not refer to how many hours/days they work.
https://www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/951 ... s.full.pdf
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
See I don't understand people comparing wages against a totally different occupation.Burnley1989 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:24 pmI honestly don't think £100k a year is enough for a doctor, it might be to your average northerner but most company directors and folk that work in a city will earn just as much if not a hell of a lot more.
A company director also has a lot of responsibility, I'd argue more than what a GP does (my GP refers you to a hospital specialist and I've even seen him use google!). Please don't mix up GP's for hospital doctors. The average company director has tens if not hundreds of peoples lively hoods at stake. The smaller company directors also have their own lively hoods at stake (houses often used as security against a business).
£100k/yr regardless of what occupation you do is more than enough and also more than enough to weather any cost of living crisis.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
OK then, my training fees to get to a post-grad engineer aren't far off £100k plus continuous learning and membership to the iMechE. Should I receieve over £100k per year and then demand a 30%+ pay rise? No because it is totally unrealistic.milkcrate_mosh wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:20 pmDoctors pay tuition fees, under the new scheme this can mean they pay >£100,000 over the course of their career. The largest cost of "training" post-graduate doctors to the NHS is paying their salary. I have to pay for my membership to my royal college (£300 a year) plus all of my post-graduate exams (these can cost up to £700 each).
I've been a doctor for 7 years I work full time as a specialist registrar. If I got a 30% payrise I'd still be well under 100k.
If we made as much as the general public think we do we wouldn't be talking about a strike!
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Like a few on here I thought GP's were already on strike.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
And when you think that rise happens every year for the next five years, you realise how dramatic it really is….
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
A lot of public sector workers could get higher paid jobs in the private sector. They wouldn't get a better package though (holidays/pension/sick pay entitlement).martin_p wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:08 pmYes, but they can get more working outside the NHS, that’s my point. I’ll admit they are large amounts compared to the average wage, but not when compared to the private sector.
Extending my analogy the likes of Pope and Tarkowski were earning an absolute mint compared to me and you, but not compared to other players at bigger clubs.
The public sector employers (i.e. the government) are no different to any other business. If you work for a big, successful business the likely hood the wages/package will be good. Work for a company that makes a low turnover the expenditure is going to be low, including wages.
Are people willing to pay a vast amount more in N.I. to pay more to the public sector workers? If so you'll probably find the American model is a better solution.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
If thats the case lets have an interim 100% tax on all earnings over £100k per year and ensure we tax excess profits and wealth aggressively too so we can all share the burden and get through this cost of living crisis together, after all more than £100k per year is more than enough to weather this storm
Once we are through this crisis we can even then use this interim process to set up a more forward thinking tax system that raises the standard of living for those at the bottom of society at the expense of reducing some of the obscene wealth of the super rich
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Just ask the French how their excessively tax the rich (people, companies, etc) move played out.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:49 pmIf thats the case lets have an interim 100% tax on all earnings over £100k per year and ensure we tax excess profits and wealth aggressively too so we can all share the burden and get through this cost of living crisis together, after all more than £100k per year is more than enough to weather this storm
Once we are through this crisis we can even then use this interim process to set up a more forward thinking tax system that raises the standard of living for those at the bottom of society at the expense of reducing some of the obscene wealth of the super rich
https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/ed ... 82%AC10m).
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I note that barristers are taking industrial action for a hefty pay increase on behalf of junior barristers who are poorly paid when first entering the profession.
Does that mean that the 16% of barristers who earn in excess of £240k a year won't be wanting to dip a large chunk of bread into the gravy boat?
Does that mean that the 16% of barristers who earn in excess of £240k a year won't be wanting to dip a large chunk of bread into the gravy boat?
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
If only I was wealthy enough to follow that (paywall) link.bf2k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:54 pmJust ask the French how their excessively tax the rich (people, companies, etc) move played out.
https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/ed ... 82%AC10m).
Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
If taxing the super rich/corporations doesn’t work because they begger off somewhere else. And I would imagine the jury is still out on that theory. Then how do we persuade them not to be so selfish and greedy and to contribute to a better society for all of us?
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
I'm afraid as I don't know anything about engineer salaries, payscales or training I'm unable to comment. If your employer is allowing your pay to fall due to inflation by these amounts you should take it up with them or your union. Perhaps you could organise industrial action?
The 30% rise being reported is from campaigning amongst junior doctors (this includes anyone up to a consultant/GP some of whom will have been doctors for 15+ years) who's real term pay has dropped substantially since 2008 and who don't earn 100k. 10 years of "austerity" meant year on year real term pay cuts even before this years huge increase in inflation forced the issue. It is currently only junior doctors who are set to ballot for industrial action.
In trying times its obviously jarring that people who receive high salaries are asking for more money but this is a culmination of the DDRB recommending sub-inflationary pay rises for almost 15 years - eventually there has to be a correction and the longer it goes on the bigger the amount requested will be.
In a global world the NHS is competing for doctors against other public health providers like Aus, NZ and Canada etc. for staff, all of whom offer substantially better pay. With a huge shortfall of GPs and consultants then I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest the NHS should be offering salaries comparable to those in similar economies. The same is going to apply for physios and AHPs as well.
The 2004 GP contract which was the last time they received a significant payrise lead to a sizable increase in the number of GPs, the current strategy is losing hundreds a year.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Perfect, how dare people hold the country to ransom by striking but at the same time we can't tax the rich because they are holding us to ransom by the threat of leaving with their money.bf2k wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:54 pmJust ask the French how their excessively tax the rich (people, companies, etc) move played out.
https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/ed ... 82%AC10m).
I dont care what happened to the French but you said yourself that in this cost of living crisis noone needs more than £100k per year so surely if it helps us all through this crisis you should be fine supporting an interim measure to tax earnings over that figure.
This idea that we daren't tax excessive wealth but we can demonise striking workers is one of the grotesque positions in right wing capitalist society's and if this was challenged and addressed properly this country would be a far better place for everyone
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Wouldn't it be great if our NHS and frontline workers could live off claps.
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Re: Doctor pay rises / strikes
Jesus I can tell you follow the socialist model. Without private business you don't have salaries. Without salaries you don't get taxes. Without taxes you don't have public services. Simples.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:16 pmPerfect, how dare people hold the country to ransom by striking but at the same time we can't tax the rich because they are holding us to ransom by the threat of leaving with their money.
I dont care what happened to the French but you said yourself that in this cost of living crisis noone needs more than £100k per year so surely if it helps us all through this crisis you should be fine supporting an interim measure to tax earnings over that figure.
This idea that we daren't tax excessive wealth but we can demonise striking workers is one of the grotesque positions in right wing capitalist society's and if this was challenged and addressed properly this country would be a far better place for everyone