Is long-ball football dead?

[Spijed]

Is the cost of football now playing a part as to why long ball football is on its way out? Fans are now spending an awful lot of money to watch their teams in the PL and some entertainment is required?

I suspect when Liverpool won the league after a number of decades without a title their supporters couldn't care less how they won it.

Neither did Leicester City supporters either.

[Big Vinny K]

DA definitely correct that our players were constrained at various points under SD.
I know that is a similar scenario to other teams that are also playing under instruction…..even when to us they look to be playing with freedom you can see from the fly on the wall documentaries (or even the insight VK has offered already to his methods) that it is all meticulously planned to the very finest of details and many managers often go mad on the sidelines when players are going against the instructions and what they have been training on all week.

Perfect example for us often under Dyche was our full backs who was were often instructed especially in the first half to not venture over the half way line which was frustrating to watch when we could see the impact of the likes of Charlie Taylor had on our play when he was allowed to get up the pitch and how that also often made Dwight play his best football.

But it’s easy for us fans to sit where we do and make these observations whilst the most successful manager we have had in over half a century has to consider many more things than we can imagine to get the performances and results he wants to. He does not have the luxury of simplifying things to one lens like hitting it long or getting our full backs forward.

You can debate styles of football for ever but basically most fans are pretty happy when their team is winning and unhappy when they are losing……and losing in style will only appease fans for a handful of games before they get on their managers back for “tippy tappy” football, not being ruthless enough, trying to walk the ball into the net and yes…..not being direct enough !!

[RVclaret]

I suspect when Liverpool won the league after a number of decades without a title their supporters couldn't care less how they won it.

Neither did Leicester City supporters either.

Liverpool played some of the most exciting football the Prem has seen?

Leicester had the likes of Vardy, Kante and Mahrez, they played probably the best counter attacking football the Prem has seen.

[Spijed]

Liverpool played some of the most exciting football the Prem has seen?

Leicester had the likes of Vardy, Kante and Mahrez, they played probably the best counter attacking football the Prem has seen.

The point is fans are never really bothered if they win trophies.

I'd be willing to bet that any Man City supporter would rather Guardiola be far more pragmatic in his approach to the CL if it meant they won it.

[claretbob]

I remember Zola at Birmingham had them playing some wonderful football but they couldn’t score and after 2 wins in 26 he had to go.Getting off to a winning start is crucial if you are changing the style of play. I went to Harrogate v Swindon last week and would agree that the standard in league 2 seems surprisingly high. Must be the best hot dogs in the efl as well.

[KRBFC]

I can assure you that Dyche would have loved for Burnley to play out from the back but we just didn't have the players to risk playing that way. If he was managing Man City, Liverpool etc then his team would be playing it from the back.

This isn't true at all and there is no evidence to suggest a manager transforms when given a few quid to spend. Rafa Benitez didn't transform into Pep/Klopp. Managers build a team to play their way, recruit players to play their style.

Look at the differences between Coyle's team and Dyche's teams, the styles were completely different despite the huge difference in finance.

Dyche is what he is, a long ball pragmatic 442 manager, that will never change, for better or worse.

[KRBFC]

According to some people we never played ‘Long ball’

When Dyche was here it was posters saying ''nah we're not a long ball side'' soon as Dyche is sacked the same people start with the ''now we're not playing long ball''

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Long ball isn't dead, it works for teams, even the big teams resort to it but the media refer to it as a long sweeping pass and other such vomit inducing guff.

Teams do what they need to win, or simply survive.
Getting all snobbish about it is just bizarre, especially as without it we wouldn't have spent so long in the PL.

[RVclaret]

Long ball isn't dead, it works for teams, even the big teams resort to it but the media refer to it as a long sweeping pass and other such vomit inducing guff.

Teams do what they need to win, or simply survive.
Getting all snobbish about it is just bizarre, especially as without it we wouldn't have spent so long in the PL.

The article and graphics clearly show the differences between playing the occasional long pass and being a genuine long ball team. Alexander Arnold for example plays incredible weighted passes to switch play, there’s a difference between that and Ben Mee launching continuous 4 irons into the channel in the hope someone wins a fk.

[KefkaClaret]

If Dyche had proper investment over the years we would be a stable mid-table Premier league club. The factor that may cause problems in Dyche getting a job is in transfers.

[claretandy]

It's refreshing to hear Kompany say he wants to score from all situations including defending corners, unlike Dyche who had everyone back in the box.

[KRBFC]

My few words on this….

Dyche was always true to his word about playing mixed, effective football.

The football we played during his first promotion season was sensational in large parts.

It was excellent during the championship winning season.

It was fabulous in the season we qualified for Europe.

THEN….tensions started to arise, funds and players weren’t found as readily (they rarely were) due to ongoing issues with the board, so Dyche did what he thought was best to keep the club up. That worked for two or three more seasons, but eventually you get found out.

Jay Rod £10m, Hendrick £10m, Wood £17m, Gibson £15m, Brownhill £8m, Gray £8m, Brady £13m, Collins £12m, Weghorst £12m, Cornet £13m.

Just a few mentioned, some good signings in there, some very effective players. Not quite the profile of players to play passing football however. It's not the cost, it's the coaching, system, style from the manager. Jack Cork came through the Chelsea academy, are we really gonna pretend he can't fit into a passing system because he didn't cost £30m?

As for the whole cost stuff, we were wellying it long at home to non league Lincoln. Away at Burton hammering it long. Accy, Port Vale, Sunderland, Huddersfield there's so many more. Lower league teams where 1 of our players costs more than their entire squad of 25.

[claretbob]

If we hadn’t spent so long in the Prem playing Dyche’s so called “dinosaur” football does anyone think for one minute that Kompany would have agreed to manage us? Our profile was raised enormously by SD and if as we all hope the VK style is both easy on the eye and effective it’s a clear win-win.
Can anyone imagine VK agreeing to manage Blackpool or Rovers this summer?

[Shaggy]

There’s a huge difference between long cultured passes aimed just infront of a player to run on to in the open to just launching it into the mixer and hope for a second phase ball.

Under Dyche we were the latter. The game plan never changed ever. As soon as a team employed 3 centre halves at the back we were done for and couldn’t land a glove on them.

The promotion seasons we still had less of the ball and still whacked it long but as has been mentioned we weren’t as cautious and players got forward to support.

Dyche done a good job for us but survival at the cost of everything else ( pathetic cup efforts ) was as far as he could muster.

There’s arguments to say that Dyche never had the funds…. To some degree yes but he also never sold players often or looked abroad for cheaper players. The squad he had was his, the style of play was his.

I don’t see Dyche achieving much as a manager from now on as only a struggling premier league club will come
I’m for him and I don’t think his methods work from day one they need time. He needs a club that will give him time and patience and I just can’t see that happening.

Dyche will probably find his way into the international set up somewhere following that other borebag bang average manager Southgate.

[KRBFC]

If we hadn’t spent so long in the Prem playing Dyche’s so called “dinosaur” football does anyone think for one minute that Kompany would have agreed to manage us? Our profile was raised enormously by SD and if as we all hope the VK style is both easy on the eye and effective it’s a clear win-win.
Can anyone imagine VK agreeing to manage Blackpool or Rovers this summer?

I think people get confused around this topic, a topic I've dealt with for years. People get confused between style and results.

When being honest and speaking about our long ball style under Dyche, that is not criticising the results under Dyche. It's not personally attacking Dyche, it doesn't mean anyone dislikes Dyche, It doesn't mean anyone wants Dyche to leave, it doesn't mean we're unaware of the good things Dyche has done.

Calling Dyche a long ball manager is not an attack on Dyche, it's calling a spade, a spade.

[KRBFC]

There’s a huge difference between long cultured passes aimed just infront of a player to run on to in the open to just launching it into the mixer and hope for a second phase ball.

Under Dyche we were the latter. The game plan never changed ever. As soon as a team employed 3 centre halves at the back we were done for and couldn’t land a glove on them.

The promotion seasons we still had less of the ball and still whacked it long but as has been mentioned we weren’t as cautious and players got forward to support.

Dyche done a good job for us but survival at the cost of everything else ( pathetic cup efforts ) was as far as he could muster.

There’s arguments to say that Dyche never had the funds…. To some degree yes but he also never sold players often or looked abroad for cheaper players. The squad he had was his, the style of play was his.

I don’t see Dyche achieving much as a manager from now on as only a struggling premier league club will come
I’m for him and I don’t think his methods work from day one they need time. He needs a club that will give him time and patience and I just can’t see that happening.

Dyche will probably find his way into the international set up somewhere following that other borebag bang average manager Southgate.

Pulis and Jose used to have Dyche's number, Pulis would play 4 central defenders and sit deep knowing we couldn't break them down. I remember Jose at United, he used Fellaini and stuck him on one of our strikers and completely nullified all of our threat.

[jrgbfc]

It's a good point about some of our cup defeats. We obviously aren't going to open up and play football against City or Liverpool, but surely a Premier League side should be able to get the ball down and outplay a non league outfit at home? Even in games like that we were resorting to throwing Barnes on and hoping to score from a set piece.

[Leisure]

This isn't true at all and there is no evidence to suggest a manager transforms when given a few quid to spend. Rafa Benitez didn't transform into Pep/Klopp. Managers build a team to play their way, recruit players to play their style.

Look at the differences between Coyle's team and Dyche's teams, the styles were completely different despite the huge difference in finance.

Dyche is what he is, a long ball pragmatic 442 manager, that will never change, for better or worse.

If you want to disagree with Dyche fine but I know what he told us.

[Shaggy]

If you want to disagree with Dyche fine but I know what he told us.

what Dyche said or didnt say is irrelevant. The proof is in the pudding. The players we signed/targeted the way we approached games, the use of subs ( or lack of ) all say different. Dyche is a meat and 2 veg 4-4-2 man playing long ball with no roatation, no tactical changes nothing. plug and play tactics if plan a didnt work it didnt work there was no plan b. nearly 10 years of data to go on.

[Leisure]

what Dyche said or didnt say is irrelevant. The proof is in the pudding. The players we signed/targeted the way we approached games, the use of subs ( or lack of ) all say different. Dyche is a meat and 2 veg 4-4-2 man playing long ball with no roatation, no tactical changes nothing. plug and play tactics if plan a didnt work it didnt work there was no plan b. nearly 10 years of data to go on.

If you want to say that Dyche tells lies, then fine.

[Shaggy]

If you want to say that Dyche tells lies, then fine.

All your argument is, is that Dyche said he wanted to do something else/evolve.

There is no evidence whatsoever that’s what he was trying to do.

Nearly 10 years of data doesn’t lie.

[Leisure]

All your argument is, is that Dyche said he wanted to do something else/evolve.

There is no evidence whatsoever that’s what he was trying to do.

Nearly 10 years of data doesn’t lie.

Let's see what he does when he gets the Man City job!

[Vegas Claret]

I suspect Luton will do plenty of it tomorrow

[Shaggy]

Let's see what he does when he gets the Man City job!

Meanwhile back in the real world..

[Leisure]

Meanwhile back in the real world..

You do realise that it was a joke? But maybe you didn't!

[Woodleyclaret]

Liverpool often play long to Robertson and TAA as they sprint up in anticipation of the pass
Long or short the secret is Cullen style accuracy played to feet, not a hit and hope high ball.

[Stayingup]

If Dyche had proper investment over the years we would be a stable mid-table Premier league club. The factor that may cause problems in Dyche getting a job is in transfers.

Reslly? Tarks, Pope, Heaton , Barnes, Arfield , Barton, Gray and the rest would put that to bed. In hindsight he might think he should have left when we finished 7th and he got sweet fa in funds to strengthen the team.

[KRBFC]

Liverpool often play long to Robertson and TAA as they sprint up in anticipation of the pass
Long or short the secret is Cullen style accuracy played to feet, not a hit and hope high ball.

There's a huge difference between playing long to switch the football, with the ball landing at the feet of the teammate on the opposite side of the field and simply punting it forward somewhere in the radius of a 6ft 3 striker and hoping to win freekicks and flick ons. 1 is a long pass, the other is a hoof.

[KefkaClaret]

Reslly? Tarks, Pope, Heaton , Barnes, Arfield , Barton, Gray and the rest would put that to bed. In hindsight he might think he should have left when we finished 7th and he got sweet fa in funds to strengthen the team.

Sorry I phrased it poorly. I think at a new club Dyche would have a lot less input on transfers considering most teams go for a director of football nowadays to make signings.

[Zom Zom]

Maybe now we can start making those 60-yard passes that we hear about, rather than those 60-yard-long balls we were forever given grief for?

Already alluded to above. Sorry folks.

[NRC]

I think people get confused around this topic, a topic I've dealt with for years. People get confused between style and results.

When being honest and speaking about our long ball style under Dyche, that is not criticising the results under Dyche. It's not personally attacking Dyche, it doesn't mean anyone dislikes Dyche, It doesn't mean anyone wants Dyche to leave, it doesn't mean we're unaware of the good things Dyche has done.

Calling Dyche a long ball manager is not an attack on Dyche, it's calling a spade, a spade.

spot on!

I would add, and while doing so take the underlying reason to sell/run down the contracts of our PL players out of the equation, SD had budget to spend how he chose to spend it, whereas VK has gone for a different type of player. Both managers had choices and both made them. VK has not had a fiduciary advantage over SD.

We'll never know on the direct comparison until a VK team has to succeed in the PL

[Leisure]

spot on!

I would add, and while doing so take the underlying reason to sell/run down the contracts of our PL players out of the equation, SD had budget to spend how he chose to spend it, whereas VK has gone for a different type of player. Both managers had choices and both made them. VK has not had a fiduciary advantage over SD.

We'll never know on the direct comparison until a VK team has to succeed in the PL

Not sure just how many PL quality players Dyche would have been able to buy with the money that VK has spent?

[NRC]

missing my point Leisure, which admittedly wasn't well made..... VK has only spent money made available from player sales. So firstly, regardless of the motivation behind selling the players, it happened - in other words incoming players of a calibre/age/style have arrived on the back of the very same players most would hope to hold on to. Secondly, the incoming players are different in their profile with VK than they typically were with SD.

In other words, VK is proving the system can be changed, except and until he gets the team promoted we won't be able to make a true comparison. If he does get us up and employs the same brand as he is ensuing now, then it will be the proof that SD was not handicapped and that he had an absolute preference for the "long ball" approach (as defined)

[KRBFC]

spot on!

I would add, and while doing so take the underlying reason to sell/run down the contracts of our PL players out of the equation, SD had budget to spend how he chose to spend it, whereas VK has gone for a different type of player. Both managers had choices and both made them. VK has not had a fiduciary advantage over SD.

We'll never know on the direct comparison until a VK team has to succeed in the PL

We also had the option to sell Tarkowski for £30m and re-invest that money. If Dyche was desperate to change things up, he could easily have raised funds from sales to do so. Not to mention his stubbornness towards using the loan market. Dyche liked his British players, unfortunately it's the most expensive market to shop in. Young players weren't really Dyche's bag either. Our transfer approach was so limited and short term thinking. Had Dyche have spent £10m on a 23 year old striker instead of 29 year old Rodriguez, 2 years down the line we'd have had a 25 year old striker instead of 31 year old Rodriguez.

[boatshed bill]

Shame we need to turn this into a criticism os Sean Dyche rather than look at the impact long-ball tactics have in the modern game.
I think I'm right in saying it was used by Paisley or Fagan at Liverpool, but they called it something like "Alehouse??" and used it when things weren't going so well.
As a short-term answer there's nothing really wrong with it.

[thomaspaine]

Intriguing Athletic article today which we are at the centre of.

Basically asking the question that now we are gone from the PL, is that the end of long ball football in the PL?

It’s a ridiculous question really . Players will always use the option of what some refer to as ‘ long ball football ‘ ( or often more correctly referred to as ….‘ long pass football ‘) when the situation deems it necessary . Of course, by and large, a long pass will more often than not be more effective than a short pass as territorial advantage is important .

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Ft ... n%3D711528

[Dingo]

There's an interesting discussion to be had about variations in passing styles and ranges but that article should not be the basis of it. I found it difficult to look beyond the arbitrary pass lengths. Over 41m for a keeper and over 7m for a centre back? I'm all for data contributing to these debates but this is an example of data fetishism at its worst. So teams where centre-backs tap it to full backs or deep creative players who then move it forward circumvent these artificial measures the author creates. It's hard to find rigorous analysis these days and people have to pay for this stuff.

[bfcjg]

If Dyche had of been given the cash to refresh the squad with younger players on an annual basis bedding them into our style of play with some tweaking to play more expansive football like we did when Defour etc was here we really wouldn't give a sh1t what people thought, it's when direct football leads to stale games with no end product and defeat that it becomes intolerable.

[ynot]

We played some terrific football in 2017/18 that saw us play a much more expansive game. That's what he wanted to continue doing, that's how he saw us evolving. It got us into Europe but then he had his hands tied behind his back in terms of squad building and I'm not sure what on earth he could have done then.

It's just not true that he made no attempt to move away from the same system at all.

I actually think that's why he brought in Brady, Defour, and Vydra. But with the long term injuries to Brady and Defour we had to revert back to playing it over the top and Vydra didn't fit that style of play hence his lack of game time. After that he didn't have the funds to buy players of that calibre again.

[Lord_Bob]

Two points on Dyche from my point of view:

1) greatest manager the team has had in my life time - and I go back to Potts in the 60's. What he has done for the club is unbelievable. Just my view, other will argue.

2) there was a change in the later Dyche years - remember when he first came and started talking about "moving it through the units?" The Barnes goal against Wigan epitomized that. In recent years, you never heard that phrase. It was all "mixed football" or something similar, which really meant, hit it long and fight for the second ball. Not sure why, but I see the loss of that "move it through the units" as being very important.

3) OK - I said 2 but meant 3. We - whoever you want to call "we" - blew it the transfer window after we reached Europe. That's when we should have pushed the boat out. We were an up and coming team, in Europe, with then a highly regarded manager, we could have attracted some real talent. We blew it. If we weren't going to "gamble" then, relegation was going to be the only outcome.

[willsclarets]

Totally agree with the above, that season we got into Europe I was excited not only for European football, but for Dyche to get a decent purse and expand his footballing style.

It never happened and we’ll never know why. It does appear he wasn’t backed, but our recruiting was a shambles. Dyche did appear to have a very British centric profile of player he preferred, which comes at a premium. His loans were pretty poor too.

I’m also slightly dubious of his ability to create a free flowing style of football. He’s pragmatic by nature, which isn’t a criticism it served us brilliantly for a long time. But his football dna is just different to someone like VK. I don’t care how much money he’d got, you never see players in some of the positions you saw against Huddersfield.

Brilliant man, brilliant manager. But as a club, including Dyche, we didn’t evolve at a key moment. And eventually we paid the price.

[CoolClaret]

Under Dyche we were the latter. The game plan never changed ever. As soon as a team employed 3 centre halves at the back we were done for and couldn’t land a glove on them.

Just from the top of my head…

[Paddy1882]

Football is all about results, when your winning nobody bats an eye lid about the style of football you play and even the media and commentators change the words the use (Difficult to break down, organised, unique etc) when you are losing people do notice the style of football you play and the terms people use become more negative. It’s simple really if a manager wants to play long ball football make sure you win more than you lose or draw, the moment that stops your in bother.

[timshorts]

England just won a European championship with a player at the back who launched it whenever an opponent came near her, so as said above its horses for courses.

[arise_sir_charge]

Just something on the often raised point that we never kicked on in the European season, that was the point I first got frustrated with Dyche. I think that like most cups he saw it as an inconvenience. Some of his starting line ups were surprising and he seemed to step away from his “relentless” mantra and it also meant we had a poor start in the league campaign.

The fans were well up for it, the management less so.

Maybe the board didn’t back him that summer as they saw that actually he wasn’t fussed about Europe.

[Dingo]

Strategically and tactically Dyche is incredibly good. When we were at our best, we knew exactly how to play in a range of key scenarios. It was formulaic and incisive, but flexible when necessary, and the direct style opened up enough scoring opportunities for us to win tight games. I was always impressed by the level of organisation and planning in how we played even when it didn’t work out and we lost. We were rarely far off. But the conditions we were playing under changed (key players left, poor recruitment, legacy pressures and so on) and what was incisive became probabilistic and routine. Instead of playing through the units with purpose as mentioned earlier, it became about what would likely happen if we did A, B, C. Similar patterns but not adaptive enough during the game. I see lots of similarities with how VK talks and the level of organisation around scenarios and how to play out of them, but using a different style.

[RVclaret]

In an Athletic article today, it says Marc Cucarella chose Brighton over us last season due to the playing style of Potter, despite us offering a better financial package.

[Hipper]

Had Dyche have spent £10m on a 23 year old striker instead of 29 year old Rodriguez, 2 years down the line we'd have had a 25 year old striker instead of 31 year old Rodriguez.

Like Che Adams you mean. How effective has he been? What's he worth now?

It's not so easy.

[Hipper]

Two points on Dyche from my point of view:

1) greatest manager the team has had in my life time - and I go back to Potts in the 60's. What he has done for the club is unbelievable. Just my view, other will argue.

2) there was a change in the later Dyche years - remember when he first came and started talking about "moving it through the units?" The Barnes goal against Wigan epitomized that. In recent years, you never heard that phrase. It was all "mixed football" or something similar, which really meant, hit it long and fight for the second ball. Not sure why, but I see the loss of that "move it through the units" as being very important.

3) OK - I said 2 but meant 3. We - whoever you want to call "we" - blew it the transfer window after we reached Europe. That's when we should have pushed the boat out. We were an up and coming team, in Europe, with then a highly regarded manager, we could have attracted some real talent. We blew it. If we weren't going to "gamble" then, relegation was going to be the only outcome.

Re 3, we bought in Vydra and Gibson (and Hart because of the goalkeeper injury situation). On paper two pretty good signings. Unfortunately Defour and Brady never really recovered from their injuries (was Gudmundsson also injured for long periods?) and Vydra hardly played (wasn't he injured at some stage?).

It was that 2018-19 season that I saw (on TV) one of the worst Premier League games for football quality I've ever seen - Cardiff 1 Burnley 2.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The Athletic have an article up suggesting the through ball pass is now also dying out, due to a lack of it in the CL, EL and top flights.

I suppose they're just filling space now.