Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

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Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Billy Balfour » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:52 pm

Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness have HEATED debate about Manchester United!


https://twitter.com/ConorSketches/statu ... FxQqA&s=19
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by tiger76 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:55 pm

Man Utd who are they?

Exactly!

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Buxtonclaret » Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:48 pm

The smaller, less important part of Greater Manchester.
8-)

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Stayingup » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:44 pm

Buxtonclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:48 pm
The smaller, less important part of Greater Manchester.
8-)
Are they actually in Manchester?

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:13 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:52 pm
Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness have HEATED debate about Manchester United!


https://twitter.com/ConorSketches/statu ... FxQqA&s=19
His Keane was bob on there :)

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Buxtonclaret » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:59 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:44 pm
Are they actually in Manchester?
Hence 'Greater Manchester'.
City of Salfords finest. Or they are at the moment. 8-)

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Roosterbooster » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:24 pm

Stayingup wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:44 pm
Are they actually in Manchester?
Often quoted that because Old Trafford is next to Salford Quays that Man U play in Salford. This bit is definitely not true. (Ish)

Turns out Manchester as we know it used to be part of the Salford Hundred, aka Salfordshire. This was one of the subdivisions of Historic Lancashire (the others being Amounderness, Blackburn, Leyland, Lonsdale and West Derby).

Manchester was a Parish in Salfordshire. Bizarrely, one of the Townships in the Parish of Manchester was Salford (the judicial centre of Salfordshire was here, hence the name). The Parish of Manchester was essentially made up of what we currently know as the City of Manchester (which is also a borough of Greater Manchester), along with small parts of other Greater Manchester boroughs, including Salford and Trafford.

The small area of the Borough of Trafford which could be found in the Manchester Parish was Stretford; home to Old Trafford.

So although Man U might technically play in Trafford, and not the City of Manchester, they certainly do play in the historic Parish of Manchester, which was historically part of Salfordshire. But they absolutely do not play in the City of Salford. Or it's borough.

At least that's what I think...
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by NRC » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:45 pm

You just made my head hurt, rooster
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:16 pm

Which one's which?

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:01 am

Roosterbooster wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:24 pm
Often quoted that because Old Trafford is next to Salford Quays that Man U play in Salford. This bit is definitely not true. (Ish)

Turns out Manchester as we know it used to be part of the Salford Hundred, aka Salfordshire. This was one of the subdivisions of Historic Lancashire (the others being Amounderness, Blackburn, Leyland, Lonsdale and West Derby).

Manchester was a Parish in Salfordshire. Bizarrely, one of the Townships in the Parish of Manchester was Salford (the judicial centre of Salfordshire was here, hence the name). The Parish of Manchester was essentially made up of what we currently know as the City of Manchester (which is also a borough of Greater Manchester), along with small parts of other Greater Manchester boroughs, including Salford and Trafford.

The small area of the Borough of Trafford which could be found in the Manchester Parish was Stretford; home to Old Trafford.

So although Man U might technically play in Trafford, and not the City of Manchester, they certainly do play in the historic Parish of Manchester, which was historically part of Salfordshire. But they absolutely do not play in the City of Salford. Or it's borough.

At least that's what I think...
Depends very much when you are defining it in history. Salford was a city when Tatton still owned Manchester, the town. The border - everything north bank of the Irwell (now Ship Canal) is traditionally Salford.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Duffer_ » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:13 am

I can see Mancunians and Salfordians fighting over this tonight: "You have them!"; "No, you have them!". There's a perfectly decent 30k stadium in Milton Keynes if it comes to that.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:22 am

Can we stick to the situation as it is now? Old Trafford is in Trafford.
The ground safety certificate is issued by Trafford Council
Trafford Town Hall is opposite the cricket ground.
Banging on about Salford is just plain wrong, it's a bit like saying Burnley is in Yorkshire.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:37 am

Roosterbooster wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:24 pm

So although Man U might technically play in Trafford, and not the City of Manchester, they certainly do play in the historic Parish of Manchester, which was historically part of Salfordshire. But they absolutely do not play in the City of Salford. Or it's borough.
Is that what happened on Saturday evening? Whatever it was, I guess no one will claim that Man U played at the Community Stadium in Brentford.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:48 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:22 am
Can we stick to the situation as it is now? Old Trafford is in Trafford.
The ground safety certificate is issued by Trafford Council
Trafford Town Hall is opposite the cricket ground.
Banging on about Salford is just plain wrong, it's a bit like saying Burnley is in Yorkshire.
How exactly? Burnley has never been in Yorkshire. Newton Heath is still an area of Salford.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:56 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:48 am
Newton Heath is still an area of Salford.
It really isn't

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:07 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:48 am
How exactly? Burnley has never been in Yorkshire. Newton Heath is still an area of Salford.
I thought the disagreement was about someone saying that Man Utd play in Salford. I pointed out they don't, they play in Trafford.

You then come back at me about Newton Heath being in Salford. Really? You really think it is?

Why are you so keen to attach Man Utd to Salford?

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:11 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:48 am
How exactly? Burnley has never been in Yorkshire.
Exactly, it's wrong. Burnley is not in Yorkshire.
People should really stop saying Man Utd play in Salford, that is also wrong.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:47 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:07 am
I thought the disagreement was about someone saying that Man Utd play in Salford. I pointed out they don't, they play in Trafford.

You then come back at me about Newton Heath being in Salford. Really? You really think it is?

Why are you so keen to attach Man Utd to Salford?
I’m not keen other than historical fact of the area, and Salford is on the North bank of the Irwell, Manchester the south… It’s quite an important distinction in history, not least Peterloo.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:44 am

Salford is not really on the North Bank of the Irwell.

The Irwell runs mainly North to South from near Bacup. In the Greater Manchester region, it bends Westward, then Eastward, then Westward again as it turns into the Ship Canal, before it ends where it meets the Mersey.

The historic county of Salford (not Salfordshire aka Salford Hundred) mainly lies on the North side of final Westward turn. But it also includes Broughton on the East side of the bend. The river is not the defining border. It has more of a border with the current City of Salford, but again, saying it lies on the North side of the river is misleading, as it mainly lies on the West Side.

The river also doesn't go near Newton Heath. Newton Heath is in the East of Manchester, the Irwell runs down the West side, 5km away. If you were to give the Irwell a North-South divide rather than its more accurate East-West divide, then Newton Heath still wouldn't be on the North Bank, it would be on the South Bank.

Newton Heath has never been part of Salford
Stretford has never been part of Salford

And I've got absolutely no idea what Peterloo has to do with it
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:25 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:47 am
I’m not keen other than historical fact of the area, and Salford is on the North bank of the Irwell, Manchester the south… It’s quite an important distinction in history, not least Peterloo.
As rooster says, the Irwelli is generally North/South so Salford, Manchester is generally an East/ West thing.
Newton Heath is half way to Oldham. It's about 2 miles east of man city's ground.
It's certainly nowhere near Salford

I am trying to get my head around what you are thinking about Elwa. You aren't thinking about the Mersey and the Cheshire Lancashire border which is generally North/South?

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Ric_C » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:21 am

This is prime uptheclarets content
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:19 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:25 am
As rooster says, the Irwelli is generally North/South so Salford, Manchester is generally an East/ West thing.
Newton Heath is half way to Oldham. It's about 2 miles east of man city's ground.
It's certainly nowhere near Salford

I am trying to get my head around what you are thinking about Elwa. You aren't thinking about the Mersey and the Cheshire Lancashire border which is generally North/South?
Not arguing the current border, as frankly I don’t care (not being snotty). But the Irewell starting in Bacup fed directly into the Mersey, so definitely East to West (as well as heading south) obviously the ship canal did not follow the natural course of the Irwell so from Worsley you need to consult old maps.

I’ve actually been looking at the route… past Warrington. It is the reason academics are now placing the Celtic Setantii tribe in East Lancashire. Setantii means water people…. And they used the Irewell as their motorway to the Mersey and onto Inis Fail (modern Ireland) for trade. People also talk about Mammacam being Manchester, strictly speaking it was Castleford / field, not Manchester…. Castle- ford, (old name) ford on the Irewell.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:40 pm

Also, coming at it from a historical pov… Salford was a pre industrial revolution ‘City’ while Manchester was just a hamlet/village.

Sorry I know this isn’t for everyone, but old boundaries and water courses fascinate me.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by wilks_bfc » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:47 pm

It’s indicative of this forum recently that an innocuous post of somebody doing impressions turns into an argument over boundary lines :roll:

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:55 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:47 pm
It’s indicative of this forum recently that an innocuous post of somebody doing impressions turns into an argument over boundary lines :roll:
Depends on your use of the word ‘argument.’ Historians set a mean path by ‘argument’… a collective group of historians is itself known as “an argument of historians”… if you mean it as a derogation term, I see no one falling out… just discussing. It’s called debate and is perfectly healthy.
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by wilks_bfc » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:47 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:55 pm
Depends on your use of the word ‘argument.’ Historians set a mean path by ‘argument’… a collective group of historians is itself known as “an argument of historians”… if you mean it as a derogation term, I see no one falling out… just discussing. It’s called debate and is perfectly healthy.
No, what I was getting at is how a thread starts on theme and goes completely off in another direction

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Duffer_ » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:51 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:47 pm
No, what I was getting at is how a thread starts on theme and goes completely off in another direction
I don't get the current obssession with people trying to limit content to their strict personal interpretation of the thread title. Conversation meanders, often tangentially, and is all the richer for it...imo.
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by PremierLeagueClass » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:55 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:51 pm
I don't get the current obssession with people trying to limit content to their strict personal interpretation of the thread title. Conversation meanders, often tangentially, and is all the richer for it...imo.
Yes it baffles me as well. It only seems to have crept in recently as well. Never used to have this problem.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by wilks_bfc » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:58 pm

Duffer_ wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:51 pm
I don't get the current obssession with people trying to limit content to their strict personal interpretation of the thread title. Conversation meanders, often tangentially, and is all the richer for it...imo.
I think my Maine gripe was that the OP clip wasn’t very funny and I was hoping the rest of the thread many have rectified that, but maybe that’s because I’m too hot and slightly hungover 😂
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:09 pm

I can see why we wander far from an original post it's Elwa. :lol:

We have moved from Old Trafford being in Salford, to the Roman history of Manchester.

Agricula was a centre forward for Man Utd. They got changed in a fort built at the confluence of the Irwell and Medlock. They called it Mamucium (breast shaped hill). Mamucium was in current day Castlefield, which is an area within the City of Manchester.

Guess what, this is still not in Salford.
:lol:
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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:54 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:09 pm
I can see why we wander far from an original post it's Elwa. :lol:

We have moved from Old Trafford being in Salford, to the Roman history of Manchester.

Agricula was a centre forward for Man Utd. They got changed in a fort built at the confluence of the Irwell and Medlock. They called it Mamucium (breast shaped hill). Mamucium was in current day Castlefield, which is an area within the City of Manchester.

Guess what, this is still not in Salford.
:lol:
I am not wiling to argue this any further as to do so would involve checking former boundaries etc. (Trafford as a unit itself did not exist) so I’ll accept your current boundaries argument gracefully (as I have other more profitable research to do.

As for the other argument (not sure it was yours) about the Irwell running North to South not East to West is plain wrong… I’d love to see how Rossendale to Liverpool is achieved without travelling East/West

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Nonayforever » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:08 pm

On the same theme, Man City wasn't in Manchester when they were founded. They were in West Gorton, named Ardwick AFC, When parts of Gorten were gobbled up into Manchester they wisely changed their name to Manchester City. Very forward thinking at the time.
I think the only time to veto a team is when you get a situation such as Coventry a couple of seasons ago.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:18 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:54 pm
I'd love to see how Rossendale to Liverpool is achieved without travelling East/West
One quick look at a map and you'll see a big, long, windy blue thing

It's called the River Mersey, and one it's tributaries is the River Irwell. The Irwell heads southwards from near Bacup 😉

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:21 pm

Anyway. I've checked the historical boundaries, and the old route of the Irwell. And yes, elwa is getting the Mersey and Irwell confused.

The Irwell has never flowed near Warrington
The River Mersey was partially diverted by the MSC to bypass Warrington, but the original Mersey still flows through it

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:28 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:21 pm
Anyway. I've checked the historical boundaries, and the old route of the Irwell. And yes, elwa is getting the Mersey and Irwell confused.

The Irwell has never flowed near Warrington
The River Mersey was partially diverted by the MSC to bypass Warrington, but the original Mersey still flows through it
Have I confused you somehow by saying the Irwell runs East to West to meet the Mersey? Fascinated by how you travel to Liverpool heading just North and South, must be a hell of a trip.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:48 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:54 pm
I am not wiling to argue this any further as to do so would involve checking former boundaries etc. (Trafford as a unit itself did not exist) so I’ll accept your current boundaries argument gracefully (as I have other more profitable research to do.

As for the other argument (not sure it was yours) about the Irwell running North to South not East to West is plain wrong… I’d love to see how Rossendale to Liverpool is achieved without travelling East/West
There is no need to. You yourself have told us the Irwell flows south from rossendale to Manchester. Then on meeting the ship canal starts to flow west along the ship canal and then the Mersey. qed

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:48 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:28 pm
Have I confused you somehow by saying the Irwell runs East to West to meet the Mersey? Fascinated by how you travel to Liverpool heading just North and South, must be a hell of a trip.
I'll make the geography easy for you follow deerplay to irlam the Mersey should really start at the goyt or tame instead of Stockport similar to Ouse at the ure or swale.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:50 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:48 pm
There is no need to. You yourself have told us the Irwell flows south from rossendale to Manchester. Then on meeting the ship canal starts to flow west along the ship canal and then the Mersey. qed
So Manchester is South not SW of Rossendale… learn something new every day. :roll:

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:02 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:48 pm
I'll make the geography easy for you follow deerplay to irlam the Mersey should really start at the goyt or tame instead of Stockport similar to Ouse at the ure or swale.
I don’t need any help with my geography thanks. I know The Irewell rises in Rossendale and I know it flows into the Mersey whether you allow for the diversions of Lord Bridgewater, the Manchester ship canal or whatever. One thing I do know is that Liverpool (The WEST coast) is WEST , in old WEST Lancashire is still WEST of EAST LANCASHIRE, where Rossendale is.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Roosterbooster » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:05 pm

You need to have a look at where the Irwell enters the Mersey

Cos it ain't the Irwell from there

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Jakubclaret » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:10 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:02 pm
I don’t need any help with my geography thanks. I know The Irewell rises in Rossendale and I know it flows into the Mersey whether you allow for the diversions of Lord Bridgewater, the Manchester ship canal or whatever. One thing I do know is that Liverpool (The WEST coast) is WEST , in old WEST Lancashire is still WEST of EAST LANCASHIRE, where Rossendale is.
We should all remain humble to etymology.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:04 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:50 pm
So Manchester is South not SW of Rossendale… learn something new every day. :roll:
Pretty much bang on South, yes.

Taking Rawtenstall 2.301 degrees W
Manchester 2.245 degrees W

Waterfoot must be virtually bang on North.

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Re: Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness

Post by Fretters » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:23 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:52 pm
Keane, Carra, Neville and Souness have HEATED debate about Manchester United!


https://twitter.com/ConorSketches/statu ... FxQqA&s=19
To respond to the actual post, 'Gary Neville''s contributions on that have had me laughing out loud more than once. :lol:
This user liked this post: Billy Balfour

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