Graeme Souness - Men's football

[Jakubclaret]

Wrong

Not much of a surprise considering you are wrong about most things.

If you was you was a young a mere tadpole starting out, I can safely say you never lived through the dark thatcherite years.

[TheFamilyCat]

I suspect that the majority of those getting angry about this have only seen the headlines "Souness says 'football is a man's game" without seeing the clip or reading the context.

Taken in isolation like that, then it is understandable to see how people may think it's out of order. Especially when he also said "we've got our game back" which again, in isolation could be interpreted as a dig at the coverage the women's game had over the summer. It's a shame that folk don't take the time to look a bit deeper sometimes.

[claretonthecoast1882]

If you was you was a young a mere tadpole starting out, I can safely say you never lived through the dark thatcherite years.

If you mean was I an adult when it seems some thought it was cool to be racist ? No I wasn't, although you could argue some still think of it as cool and seem quite disturbed when pulled up on it.

Luckily the vast majority are decent

[NottsClaret]

I'm all for women's football and have said so plenty of times on here. My daughter plays. And I've no problem at all with Souness' comments, it's just shorthand for a more physical, aggressive style of football which we know he likes. Plus he's actually a lot more open minded than his Sky persona suggests so we should cut him some slack here.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

what's the gender-neutral equivalency, and let's not say "person's game" because the meaning is one of toughness, which was Souness's intent. I guess you take it non-gender and just say it's a tough game....

And if we had witnessed an equivalent game in the women's league, how should a pundit have described it? Not "women's game" as that doesn't carry the intonation?

Serious and non-serious answers please

"A proper game"

I said the same about the Euro final - it was lively and both teams played competitively.

[houseboy]

Being a white heterosexual male these days is enough to make you want to top yourself. Well not quite but you get the gist

You forgot abled bodied. Am I alone in feeling discriminated against these days? Every conceivable section of society seems to have their defenders apart from the white, heterosexual, able bodied male.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, regardless of colour, sexuality, religion, gender etc should be treated equally, I have believed this for decades, but I sometimes, just occasionally, feel like I am somehow being left out of things, and surely that is just as bad as any kind of prejudice.

Or maybe I’m being paranoid (but then has society created that paranoia?).

[Big Vinny K]

Things were different like I said & the 1980s launched erasure etc things were actually catching on & becoming more fashionable, I actually think it's you being the ignorant 1 labelling that decade as being homophobic, sure some people were but you can't broad brush that era as being that, the 1980s era was actually giving people an identity & the confidence to come out of their shell not the other way around, social media wasn't in existence so that side wasn't the issue it is nowadays it's actually some elements of that which has delivered the platform for abuse, largely in the 80s you was accepted for what you was & if you wasn't you wouldn't find no problems finding acceptance elsewhere.

Your ignorance really does know no bounds.
It’s almost like you are completely oblivious to the news and what’s happening in the world around you.
You live in the weirdest of bubbles and I have the greatest of sympathy for anyone you have to actually deal with in the real world.

[CombatClaret]

Being a white heterosexual male these days is enough to make you want to top yourself. Well not quite but you get the gist

These days, if you say you're English you get arrested and thrown in jail.

[ClaretPete001]

For gawds sake Souness was alluding to behaviour not gender - it is a completely faux discussion and the fact that the nation's broadcaster writes banal crap is to the detriment of everyone.

And it's not a zero sum game we can hope for a less stupid national discourse without wishing for a return of the casual "isms" of the past.

This is how we end up with Trump, Farage and Johnson because talking sh*te has become a cultural norm......!

[Big Vinny K]

"A proper game"

I said the same about the Euro final - it was lively and both teams played competitively.

I’d say in the context of what Souness was trying to say a game for “grown ups” or “adults” might be fine. But as he pointed out he was referring to the 2 games on Sunday which were both being played by men. So there really is nothing wrong with what he said at all and most people of any sense realise that.

In truth even the women players who are having a dig and going on TV etc to talk about this also know there was nothing wrong with what he said but they are taking the opportunity to talk about the other areas of what they perceive to be inequality across the mens and womens game……unfortunately this is how it’s going to be for a while now after the Euros win. There is a momentum (for now) and they want to keep it going to grow the womens game even if some times it’s not a legitimate argument like this incident they still get “free” promotion on the back of it.

Personally I’m not sure things like this do the womens game any favours at all and might even have a negative effect as they upset some people who have influence and respect in football who they could do with being advocates

[CombatClaret]

"I think we've got our football back, as I would enjoy it, men at it..."

Back from whom? Oh, the people who are not men.

[Jakubclaret]

Your ignorance really does know no bounds.
It’s almost like you are completely oblivious to the news and what’s happening in the world around you.
You live in the weirdest of bubbles and I have the greatest of sympathy for anyone you have to actually deal with in the real world.

The 80s allowed people to express themselves especially with the new romantics pop stars started wearing make up & it was fashionable to do that, although earlier musicians were known to be doing that, the 80s was probably the breakthrough era which shattered or at least diminished negative stigmas regarding homosexually more people than ever came out of the closet, anyway my last post I'm conscious people are trying to get the subject back on track & I don't want the thread to get pulled for bickering.

[ClaretPete001]

"I think we've got our football back, as I would enjoy it, men at it..."

Back from whom? Oh, the people who are not men.

FFS - The people who are not men cannot and have never played in the PL so how can that have been his point?

He meant from referees and fuddy duddies who don't like the two footed challenges and virtual assaults that Souness now appears in on Youtube. Shame given he was quite some player.

Is deliberately misunderstanding very simple points the new national sport?

[Big Vinny K]

The 80s allowed people to express themselves especially with the new romantics pop stars started wearing make up & it was fashionable to do that, although earlier musicians were known to be doing that, the 80s was probably the breakthrough era which shattered or at least diminished negative stigmas regarding homosexually more people than ever came out of the closet, anyway my last post I'm conscious people are trying to get the subject back on track & I don't want the thread to get pulled for bickering.

Aye you’re right…..Haircut 100 and Kajagoogoo wearing a bit of eye liner was a massive break through in reducing homophobia.

Unfortunately you missed that tiny other part of the decade when the whole of their community was blamed and hated for the outbreak of AIDS.

Swings and roundabouts eh….can I apologise

[AlargeClaret]

You realise why Twitter is such a rancid divisive hysterical , disgusting cesspit. When some off the cuff remark is taken entirely out of context and manipulated into a toxic agenda driven sh1t throwing contest . It’s embarrassing that none of the “ deeply offended” had the merest contextual clue of the figurative meaning of Souness’s comment . Didn’t stop the Guardian leading on “ disgraceful Souness” yesterday though ( based off some Twitter comment )

[Big Vinny K]

"I think we've got our football back, as I would enjoy it, men at it..."

Back from whom? Oh, the people who are not men.

This is Graham Souness - one of the toughest players to ever play the game. Do you really believe for one second that he was referring to anything other than the game going a bit soft with diving, players rolling around pretending to be hurt and fouls being given for the slightest of touches ?
And if you don’t believe that watch it again because he actually says something along those lines.

[CombatClaret]

FFS - The people who are not men cannot and have never played in the PL so how can that have been his point?
He meant from referees and fuddy duddies who don't like the two footed challenges and virtual assaults that Souness now appears in on Youtube. Shame given he was quite some player.
Is deliberately misunderstanding very simple points the new national sport?

“I think we’ve got our football back, as I would enjoy football … men at it, blow-for-blow, and the referee letting them get on with it.”

He doesn't say 'The Premier League' though does he, he says football then which gender he likes playing it.

I'm literally pointing to his words.
If you have to insert unspoken meaning or additional qualifiers he never said to make it sound better I'm not the one misunderstanding it.

[forzagranata]

Which of these seems more likely?

1. Souness decided that despite the risk of a hysterical social media campaign against him and the resultant possibility of losing his very well paid gig with Sky Sports, that the Chelsea v Spurs match was the perfect occassion for him to attack women's football in a sexist manner and demean the very popular England women's team. He just couldn't hold back his hatred of women's football that had been bubbling inside since the Euros.

or

2. Souness was actually referring to the recent PL instructions given to referees to give more leeway to challenges and let the game flow more - not blowing for minor physical contact. He saw this happening during the Chelsea v Spurs match. Basically he was making the same point that someone like Sean Dyche would have made and it had absolutely nothing to with women's football.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Seems to be more people being outraged that some people were outraged by a pretty nothingness comment.

They’ll be being called Woke next.

[Ric_C]

Which of these seems more likely?

1. Souness decided that despite the risk of a hysterical social media campaign against him and the resultant possibility of losing his very well paid gig with Sky Sports, that the Chelsea v Spurs match was the perfect occassion for him to attack women's football in a sexist manner and demean the very popular England women's team. He just couldn't hold back his hatred of women's football that had been bubbling inside since the Euros.

or

2. Souness was actually referring to the recent PL instructions given to referees to give more leeway to challenges and let the game flow more - not blowing for minor physical contact. He saw this happening during the Chelsea v Spurs match. Basically he was making the same point that someone like Sean Dyche would have made and it had absolutely nothing to with women's football.

Exactly

End thread

[CombatClaret]

Which of these seems more likely?

1. Souness decided that despite the risk of a hysterical social media campaign against him and the resultant possibility of losing his very well paid gig with Sky Sports, that the Chelsea v Spurs match was the perfect occassion for him to attack women's football in a sexist manner and demean the very popular England women's team. He just couldn't hold back his hatred of women's football that had been bubbling inside since the Euros.

or

2. Souness was actually referring to the recent PL instructions given to referees to give more leeway to challenges and let the game flow more - not blowing for minor physical contact. He saw this happening during the Chelsea v Spurs match. Basically he was making the same point that someone like Sean Dyche would have made and it had absolutely nothing to with women's football.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
No one goes on air with the plan you describe. That's a mental strawman argument.

He was doing 2 but he accidentally revealed an unconscious bias that sees him unable to dissociate a type of sporting performance and a specific gender.

[dsr]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
No one goes on air with the plan you describe. That's a mental strawman argument.

He was doing 2 but he accidentally revealed an unconscious bias that sees him unable to dissociate a type of sporting performance and a specific gender.

You mean, he enjoys men's football better than women's football? That sort of bias?

It's blindingly obvious that he was pleased that this particular football match was played by men acting like men, getting up and getting on eith the game, not acting like toddlers crying because they fell over. If you think he should have referred to women as well, it's the FA that you need to have a word with. They're the ones that banned women from playing in that particular game.

[Big Vinny K]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
No one goes on air with the plan you describe. That's a mental strawman argument.

He was doing 2 but he accidentally revealed an unconscious bias that sees him unable to dissociate a type of sporting performance and a specific gender.

He simply wasn’t - you are looking for something that is not there……and I cannot get my head round why.
The context of Souness saying ‘men’ was clearly a reference to a game for adults / grown ups and an era which he played in where you could be more physical.
How do you know he is not absolutely fine with this more leniency / physicality in the women’s game ? Do you think if he had been watching a women’s game he takes a difference stance and is happy for them to dive, roll about and the referee blow up for a foul every time there is any contact ?

[CombatClaret]

It's blindingly obvious that he was pleased that this particular football match was played by men acting like men, getting up and getting on eith the game, not acting like toddlers crying because they fell over. If you think he should have referred to women as well, it's the FA that you need to have a word with. They're the ones that banned women from playing in that particular game.

What do men act like? Is Jill Scott acting like a man or a woman here? Do you mean a grownup/adult and not a child?

Screenshot-2022-08-09-102322.png (293.58 KiB) Viewed 1054 times

[Big Vinny K]

What do men act like? Is Jill Scott acting like a man or a woman here? Do you mean a grownup/adult and not a child?

Screenshot-2022-08-09-102322.png

You’ve lost me now.
What is your point ?
Jill Scott is calling the German player a ‘f’in pr*ck”
She is simply acting like an angry human being……and I have seen children, men and women act like this on a football pitch.

But please explain as I feel you are very quickly losing yourself up your own anus.

[CombatClaret]

You’ve lost me now.
What is your point ?

DSR - "men acting like men",
Souness "Men at it, blow-for-blow,..."

That some people seem to think a type of behavior is exclusive to one gender.

[Big Vinny K]

DSR - "men acting like men",
Souness "Men at it, blow-for-blow,..."

That some people seem to think a type of behavior is exclusive to one gender.

As I said you are losing yourself up your own bottom.
He said men acting like men because he was talking about the men in the men’s game he had just watched.

My guess is that in his nearly 70 years on this earth that Souness is aware that women can also fight and swear so I doubt very much he does not think this behaviour is exclusive to one gender as you put it.

[CardyTheClaret]

These days, if you say you're English you get arrested and thrown in jail.

When did this come in?

[dsr]

What do men act like? Is Jill Scott acting like a man or a woman here? Do you mean a grownup/adult and not a child?

Screenshot-2022-08-09-102322.png

I don't think Jill Scott is an issue here. Remember that under FA rules she was banned from playing in that game on Sunday, as are all other women.

The point is that some footballers behave like little babies. Nunez for Liverpool yesterday, for example. Someone gave him a little push and he lashed out. I was exactly the same when I was 5 years old, but I grew out of it. Nunez might learn to grow out of it too.

Jill Scott is a grown woman, not a little girl. But like I said, there were neither little girls nor grown women playing in Chelsea v Spurs, because it was a man's game. And I'm sorry if that upsets you, but I won't stop saying it.

[ClaretPete001]

“I think we’ve got our football back, as I would enjoy football … men at it, blow-for-blow, and the referee letting them get on with it.”

He doesn't say 'The Premier League' though does he, he says football then which gender he likes playing it.

I'm literally pointing to his words.
If you have to insert unspoken meaning or additional qualifiers he never said to make it sound better I'm not the one misunderstanding it.

Just completely disingenuous

The previous two sentences are:

"Souness was analysing the physical nature of the game and referee Anthony Taylor's approach.

It's a man's game all of a sudden again," Souness said on Sunday.

Clearly giving the context of a Premier League game that only men can play in. He was talking about this game and his use of a "man's game" clearly alluded to the nature of the game not the gender of the people involved.

[CombatClaret]

Just completely disingenuous

The previous two sentences are:
"Souness was analysing the physical nature of the game and referee Anthony Taylor's approach.

It's a man's game all of a sudden again," Souness said on Sunday.
Clearly giving the context of a Premier League game that only men can play in. He was talking about this game and his use of a "man's game" clearly alluded to the nature of the game not the gender of the people involved.

Why does the nature of the game have a gender?

[xxmunkyennuixx]

I’d say in the context of what Souness was trying to say a game for “grown ups” or “adults” might be fine. But as he pointed out he was referring to the 2 games on Sunday which were both being played by men. So there really is nothing wrong with what he said at all and most people of any sense realise that.

I haven't got a massive problem with what he said. It was poorly worded. He portrays himself badly at times, he isn't intolerant or illiberal. I know he went on a Pride march and his comments were really positive. Poor portrayal is probably a bit harsh, he's an old fella and language changes quickly. I like a feisty contest, Souey definitely does and that's what he was enthusiastic about. I winced when he said it because he was clearly going to cop some bad publicity. Not keen on adult because there are plenty of games which are lively in the younger age groups.

Further up the thread people commenting about good spirit and treating the ref with respect in the women's game definitely did not watch the Germany or Spanish games. Total ********. The women really wanted to win and it was great to watch. Some nasty challenges and plenty of verbals.

[CombatClaret]

To describe the nature of a game you need to use an adjective. Here are some good ones he could have used.

Physical, tough, contact, hard, solid, strong, vigorous, dynamic, intense, lively, battling, aggressive, combative, hostile, bitter, firm, forceful etc.

But he chose 'Man's'...

[Ashingtonclaret46]

To describe the nature of a game you need to use an adjective. Here are some good ones he could have used.

Physical, tough, contact, hard, solid, strong, vigorous, dynamic, intense, lively, battling, aggressive, combative, hostile, bitter, firm, forceful etc.

But he chose 'Man's'...

That's because, unlike you, he didn't have his dictionary available and chose to describe it in his own words, much to the dleight of the BBC and, in particular, The Guardian. Life goes on, even for those who do not take any notice of the way the world is going and who are not afraid to say what they think.

[ClaretPete001]

To describe the nature of a game you need to use an adjective. Here are some good ones he could have used.

Physical, tough, contact, hard, solid, strong, vigorous, dynamic, intense, lively, battling, aggressive, combative, hostile, bitter, firm, forceful etc.

But he chose 'Man's'...

Indeed but as I've said before language has no fixed meaning we have made progress since the 1920s.

Rather than scapegoat someone whose intent was clear you could be tolerant and accept the context in which he chose to use those words.

[ClaretPete001]

I haven't got a massive problem with what he said. It was poorly worded. He portrays himself badly at times, he isn't intolerant or illiberal. I know he went on a Pride march and his comments were really positive. Poor portrayal is probably a bit harsh, he's an old fella and language changes quickly. I like a feisty contest, Souey definitely does and that's what he was enthusiastic about. I winced when he said it because he was clearly going to cop some bad publicity. Not keen on adult because there are plenty of games which are lively in the younger age groups.

Further up the thread people commenting about good spirit and treating the ref with respect in the women's game definitely did not watch the Germany or Spanish games. Total ********. The women really wanted to win and it was great to watch. Some nasty challenges and plenty of verbals.

I think a lapse into casual ageism is somewhat symptomatic of the problems people have with "isms".

We live in a top trump society of casual isms some are legitimated and others not...!

[conyoviejo]

Mr Souness,just hope you don't lose your job over such a petty throw away comment. Too many w@nkers wanting to stir the pot.Trouble is there are Too many w@nkers wanting some action taken

[dsr]

To describe the nature of a game you need to use an adjective. Here are some good ones he could have used.

Physical, tough, contact, hard, solid, strong, vigorous, dynamic, intense, lively, battling, aggressive, combative, hostile, bitter, firm, forceful etc.

But he chose 'Man's'...

Are you saying it was inappropriate to describe any or all of those players as "men"?

[elwaclaret]

To describe the nature of a game you need to use an adjective. Here are some good ones he could have used.

Physical, tough, contact, hard, solid, strong, vigorous, dynamic, intense, lively, battling, aggressive, combative, hostile, bitter, firm, forceful etc.

But he chose 'Man's'...

‘Men’ and ‘man’has been used as an adjective for both Man and wo-man throughout history, your linguistic argument has no merit.

[Wile E Coyote]

souness sold his soul to play for the mess that is talk sport.embarrassing , puerile , inevitable tripe presided over by the dull as ditchwater , comedy dunce, and suck up, jim white.

[elwaclaret]

Interestingly… or not. The first WO-MAN voter, voted in a UK election around fifty years before women were granted the vote because she owned land, and was she not a ‘man’ (adjective) - (all that she needed to prove at the time) the law was quickly tightened as you’d expect from THE RIGHT SORT, our glorious Empire building fore-fathers… the sort that thought Peterloo ‘was a good lesson to em’ on this day in 1819.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

I think a lapse into casual ageism is somewhat symptomatic of the problems people have with "isms".

We live in a top trump society of casual isms some are legitimated and others not...!

It wasn't casual or a lapse. Language and meaning moves on quickly. He hasn't kept up like far too many of his peers. Culture wars/political incorrectness/wokeism is in essence inter generational conflict. Personally, I think his intent was not malicious, I would not be too harsh on him.

Ageism is an issue in the UK but not in the way that you seem to be implying. It is the younger generations getting rinsed far too frequently. Too much respect for the desires of the Boomers means a broken dysfunctional society. The intent to do everything to ensure that the triple lock stays versus student loan raises without a care? Home ownership in Boomers versus precarious rent for the young? Refusal to pay for care resulting in a trashed NHS so that nothing works? Nimby Boomer attitudes towards renewables meaning massive cost hikes when a price shock occurs. Yeah, ageism is a problem.

That's off topic though.

[BabylonClaret]

I don't think CombatClaret is saying Souness attacked the women's game or that he necessarily disagrees with Souness's argument.

He is pointing out that the describing of a physical contest as a MAN'S contest effectively reinforces stereotypes and unconscious bias.

I think he's right here. It's a reflection of the wider societal cultural thinking and that's clear that when the choice of words here is challenged (by women too - how dare they?) it's kind of slapped down with a huge outcry of victimisation. Like Combat said - he could easily have said "that was a great contest, physical and proper blood and thunder" but he said (a few times) that it was a man's game again. That's a stereotype.

[CombatClaret]

Holy sh1t someone gets it.

[CombatClaret]

Are you saying it was inappropriate to describe any or all of those players as "men"?

No, it was inappropriate to use men as an adjective to describe the style of play.

[4:20]

I haven't thought of this song for nearly 25 years but this issue, unfortunately, reminded me of it and now it's stuck in my head on repeat.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XltBBEHQJxE

[ClaretPete001]

I don't think CombatClaret is saying Souness attacked the women's game or that he necessarily disagrees with Souness's argument.

He is pointing out that the describing of a physical contest as a MAN'S contest effectively reinforces stereotypes and unconscious bias.

I think he's right here. It's a reflection of the wider societal cultural thinking and that's clear that when the choice of words here is challenged (by women too - how dare they?) it's kind of slapped down with a huge outcry of victimisation. Like Combat said - he could easily have said "that was a great contest, physical and proper blood and thunder" but he said (a few times) that it was a man's game again. That's a stereotype.

It's not a stereotype it is a biological category. It is a man's game because only men can play in it. And men are physically stronger and more aggressive than women that's why prisons are full of men - just biological facts.

At what point do you dispense with science and facts before you become Donald Trump?

If anything it is an absurdly negative caricature of men and on that basis I think Souness is wrong.

[CombatClaret]

It's not a stereotype it is a biological category. It is a man's game because only men can play in it. And men are physically stronger and more aggressive than women that's why prisons are full of men - just biological facts.

He wasn't describing the category of the game (a men's competition). He was praising it for being played in a 'manly' way.

You're conflating a noun (a thing) with an adjective (an attribute).

You shouldn't praise a game for being manly as that is a stereotype and derogatory to other genders who play the game with equal physicality & passion etc.

[evensteadiereddie]

The only mistake that Souness, paid decent money to gob off from the perspective of a few decades ago, made is not being bright enough to put his point across clearly at the time.
This has merely reinforced many people's view that he's a knob.

[Big Vinny K]

He wasn't describing the category of the game (a men's competition). He was praising it for being played in a 'manly' way.

You're conflating a noun (a thing) with an adjective (an attribute).

You shouldn't praise a game for being manly as that is a stereotype and derogatory to other genders who play the game with equal physicality & passion etc.

Well that just becomes a whole new debate on English language and the significant changes to many many words and phrases that would be needed to make everyone happy……and it’s the making everyone happy that will be a tough one given that as we know this can change on a regular basis.

The description of “manly” would presumably need eradicating from the dictionary almost entirely….as would womanly, gentleman like, ladylike, child like , to “old head” someone, etc etc
….basically a rewrite of the whole English dictionary starting with the word Aardvark (Blackadder episode reference !!)

Or we could have common sense prevail and just accept that Souness was merely pointing out that it was good to see a bit of aggression back in the game ?!!!