Vincent’s errors…

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:34 am

Think he’s been unreal until now but a few errors tonight imo.

- JBG not Benson. Benson changes the game last match, deserved to come in above JBG imo.

- Barnes coming on, not Halil (who imo should’ve been on the bench instead).

That’s all. Arguably some midfield freshness but overall I think the above two changes and we see out the match.

Still love him & all, just think these two decisions were wrong & certainly hope the later is not even a consideration as the season goes on.

DCWat · Post by **DCWat** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:36 am

Was Dervisoglu eligible for tonight?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:37 am

Do you not think bringing on Halil might have been an even bigger error because it would have cost 3 points for playing an unregistered player? At least, I understood he was registered too late, and he certainly wasn't on the bench.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:52 am

Don’t agree with either of your points tbh.

We needed some strength in retaining the ball and experience hence JBG.

Halil had barely had a training session and don’t think he was even registered in time. Hopefully he’ll be taking Barnes’ place on the bench soon though.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:08 am

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:52 am
Don’t agree with either of your points tbh.

We needed some strength in retaining the ball and experience hence JBG.

Halil had barely had a training session and don’t think he was even registered in time. Hopefully he’ll be taking Barnes’ place on the bench soon though.

Just to add - if there any errors it was starting Vitinho on the right wing, completely ineffectual there as was shown in the prior two games he started there. Don’t really get that one when he’s got Churlinov / Benson / JBG to choose from (the latter maybe in the need of a rest).

Nori1958 · Post by **Nori1958** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:09 am

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:34 am
Think he’s been unreal until now but a few errors tonight imo.

- JBG not Benson. Benson changes the game last match, deserved to come in above JBG imo.

- Barnes coming on, not Halil (who imo should’ve been on the bench instead).

That’s all. Arguably some midfield freshness but overall I think the above two changes and we see out the match.

Still love him & all, just think these two decisions were wrong & certainly hope the later is not even a consideration as the season goes on.

And what protection do you think Benson would have got from that ref? He'd have been kicked into the stands

scamander · Post by **scamander** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:47 am

Could bringing on JBG have been influebced by the need for a bit more height? Not the defining reason but perhaps influencing it?

Notsosuperstevedavis · Post by **Notsosuperstevedavis** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:59 am

Thought his post match assessment was spot on really,
Which makes a refreshing change.
Its very easy to come on here and be critical an hour after the games finished having succumbed to another game where we’ve dropped two points.
WBA were the better side over the 90 last night.
It was going to be a bit of a steal if we got all 3pts last night, which would have made me feel better about the Luton/Blackpool games. As it felt like three points we shouldnt have got.

The team was tired and it showed in the passing - a night where we really could have done with not giving ourselves extra pressing to do.

The trick was balancing energy with experience last night.

The whole things going to take time.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:04 am

I don't think VK could have done much else and I've no issues with what he did do. Too many players were below par last night and with the pressure being applied something was going to fall just right for West Brom eventually, especially as the useless ref had decided we had to play tons of added time until they scored! The players needed to take responsibility for seeing a game like that out and that's where we've become so, so accustomed to Mee, Tarkowski and Pope and knowing that in those circumstances like last night the 3 points would always be travelling back up the motorway. It's not going to be like that anymore unfortunately.

willsclarets · Post by **willsclarets** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:07 am

The other thing to add is Benson was superb, but in a way he probably shot himself in the foot a bit changing the game off the bench against Milwall. Millwall looked a lot more ragged after an hour of chasing the ball about. It was perfect for benson. I don’t think it was necessarily an error tbh

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:09 am

Disappointed we didn't get the 3pts as we had numerous chances to put the game to bed, for all West Broms possession they offered little in front of goal.

This was just as disappointing as the dropped points against Blackpool were we through a 2 goal lead away

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:12 am

I was surprised Benson didn’t get on after Tuesday but as above it may have been down to the style of play and how the ref was letting things go.

The subs he did make should have put the game to bed though.

Burnley1989 · Post by **Burnley1989** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:17 am

I don’t think I can really think of anything he got wrong to be honest, I’d probably not have brought Barnes on but he had little option really

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:33 am

Would prefer this thread was called Vincent’s decisions. It isn’t factual they were errors and it is too negative against our manager.

Remember JBG is the “player we wouldn’t be able to afford” as a new signing, Churlinov nearly won us the game, BPF was due to injury, Jay can’t play 180 minutes in 3 days and Cork was on a booking.

Notsosuperstevedavis · Post by **Notsosuperstevedavis** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:33 am

Bringing barnes on…..

Dont look at it as Bringing him on.
Its more protecting Jay Rod for the next game.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:58 am

The only thing I didn’t agree with was to put maatsen straight back in, because I thought Vitinho did enough to keep his place at left back, and has also demonstrated that he isn’t a winger. Hopefully he will do this in the next game, and start one of JBG/Chirlinov/Benson/Zoury.

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:03 am

How refreshing it is to see players who are not having a great game, being taken off, and doing it early in the game. Both Maatsen and Cork, despite some great performances this season, were not playing well last night and got rightly taken off. In the last few seasons, when winning 1-0 were a full back and midfielder (and captain) taken off. I am hoping now we have a good selection of strikers that Barnes is not relied upon. If I was one of the new striker arrivals and watched Barnes play on a regular basis I would be demotivated.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:05 am

If he had been bold then he would not have started Cork, who looked tired and had a poor game until subbed, but had he left him out and we had played as we did then he would have got some real pelters on here..

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:08 am

I’m absolutely convinced that JBG was the right decision.

The one decision I would question was Maatsen back at left back for Vitinho. Vitinho is a better defender and is significantly stronger in that position than he is on the right side.

Vitinho would have foiled the threat form the right side from Wallace far more effectively.

That said, if Roberts boots one final ball away, I imagine we’re all thinking it’s a fine away performance against one of the title favourites away from home.

Jamesy · Post by **Jamesy** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:09 am

gandhisflipflop wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:58 am
The only thing I didn’t agree with was to put maatsen straight back in, because I thought Vitinho did enough to keep his place at left back, and has also demonstrated that he isn’t a winger. Hopefully he will do this in the next game, and start one of JBG/Chirlinov/Benson/Zoury.

Agreed, his biggest error was to start Maatsen.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:12 am

The thing that stood out for me last night was our dreadful passing.
I lost count of the times we gave the ball away through sloppy passes. We have to learn if you present
the opposition with the ball, you're setting them up for an attack. Need to sharpen upon that, and that's
down to the players themselves, not the manager.

Keeping the ball is all important, specially against a good side like West Brom.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:13 am

nil_desperandum wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:05 am
If he had been bold then he would not have started Cork, who looked tired and had a poor game until subbed, but had he left him out and we had played as we did then he would have got some real pelters on here..

Don’t agree. He was absolutely excellent until minute 36 when he got booked. After that he was stand-offish and the game passed him by.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:19 am

jdrobbo wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:13 am
Don’t agree. He was absolutely excellent until minute 36 when he got booked. After that he was stand-offish and the game passed him by.

And the absolutely ridiculous thing about that is how innocuous his challenge which drew the booking was when you saw some of the stuff later that went totally unpunished. It definitely affected Cork's game.

Darnhill Claret · Post by **Darnhill Claret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:21 am

Electro has it right. Having had some thinking time it was probably partly due to how well WBA pressed but we were also wasteful when not under pressure inviting them right back at us.

Darnhill Claret · Post by **Darnhill Claret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:22 am

A better passing game from us and they would have run out of time.

Notsosuperstevedavis · Post by **Notsosuperstevedavis** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:30 am

Its a marker of how spoilt we’ve been.

Cork had a few mis-placed passes and some - me included were saying he’d had a poor game by his standards.
Its a poor do when you can have a few mis placed passes and someone (like me) is saying you’ve not been as good as you normally are.

But that’s the incredibly high standards we’ve got used to.

I agree - leave cork out and drop points and VK gets pelters.
Play him, and see that he’s tired and we say
‘Needed a rest’

For me you’d share the load between westy and Cork when hems back.

SkiptonClaret · Post by **SkiptonClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:50 am

Vincent would have learnt a fair bit from last night, not least that Cork can’t do three full games in six days.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:03 am

SkiptonClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:50 am
Vincent would have learnt a fair bit from last night, not least that Cork can’t do three full games in six days.

And maybe that we need some hardened experience in the team.to complement the very good young ball players we have. And that referees in this league are not very good.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:12 am

Notsosuperstevedavis wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:33 am
Bringing barnes on…..

Dont look at it as Bringing him on.
Its more protecting Jay Rod for the next game.

That's hopefully an issue we are sorting out, and once the new lads are integrate we shouldn't need to be seeing him on the pitch.

15 mins is too much, it's painful viewing.

Raconteur · Post by **Raconteur** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:19 am

jdrobbo wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:13 am
Don’t agree. He was absolutely excellent until minute 36 when he got booked. After that he was stand-offish and the game passed him by.

Cork was ok until the booking. I don't know how Kompany could have been bold ( as you say) and not started Cork. Did he know before the game that Cork was going to get booked and then have a poorish game.
Kompany is a good coach but he doesn't have a crystal ball. He is not psychic.

Raconteur · Post by **Raconteur** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:24 am

nil_desperandum wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:05 am
If he had been bold then he would not have started Cork, who looked tired and had a poor game until subbed, but had he left him out and we had played as we did then he would have got some real pelters on here..

Apologies JD, i quoted the wrong post.

Cork was ok until the booking. I don't know how Kompany could have been bold ( as you say) and not started Cork. Did he know before the game that Cork was going to get booked and then have a poorish game.
Kompany is a good coach but he doesn't have a crystal ball. He is not psychic.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:44 am

Raconteur wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:19 am
Cork was ok until the booking. I don't know how Kompany could have been bold ( as you say) and not started Cork. Did he know before the game that Cork was going to get booked and then have a poorish game.
Kompany is a good coach but he doesn't have a crystal ball. He is not psychic.

Quite right

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:59 am

I think not changing a winning team would have worked here, it doesn’t always.
When the player you bring back in though, after a self inflicted suspension in a game where he was partly to blame for the 2 goals that cost you 2 points takes the position of probably the best performer in the previous game, Vitinho, who moves into a position where he wasn’t quite as effective but it moves to the bench a quality player in JBG then to me it weakened the team and sent the wrong message

ClaretPete001 · Post by **ClaretPete001** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:08 am

As far as I recall, the last time he didn't play Cork against a decent team, and we haven't played many or any in the top 12, - we lost...!

Not easy for him to drop Cork

turbo5 · Post by **turbo5** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:28 am

I think the team needs games like this to develop and learn from it. First time this season we haven't dominated possession. They had to fight last night. Personally think we struggle when teams take the game to us. We have a relatively new team made up of young lads who will be playing experienced Championship professionals who know how to knock the confidence out of young players (most probably first season in the UK or Championship).
If we learn from it then its been a valuable lesson. This team is WIP with new players still to be introduced, Learn our strengthens and weaknesses, what works and what doesn't etc
The time to worry is when we make the same mistakes game after game or other teams know our style and how to play against us and we don't have a plan B

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:47 am

dsr wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:37 am
Do you not think bringing on Halil might have been an even bigger error because it would have cost 3 points for playing an unregistered player? At least, I understood he was registered too late, and he certainly wasn't on the bench.

I was under the impression he was available? Is it confirmed anywhere? We’ve had others sign closer to games and make the bench, I think.

But my broader point was just that this sub hasn’t worked for a few games now & in such a close game, made the difference imo.

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:20 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:08 am
As far as I recall, the last time he didn't play Cork against a decent team, and we haven't played many or any in the top 12, - we lost...!

Not easy for him to drop Cork

No way on earth you can drop Cork or any of that midfield after recent performances. Imagine if he did our performances would have been no better & we’d be left saying how useless we are without Cork. Just one of those things.

JimmyRobbo · Post by **JimmyRobbo** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:45 pm

So, having won a few games and only lost one, we come on here telling VK he's been getting it wrong!

He knows more than we do about the ins and outs of the squad. I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Belgianclaret · Post by **Belgianclaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:56 pm

Timing of substitutions spot on for me. Just a pity the substitutes failed to make an impact. I actually thought Bastien should have stuck to the Cork role in the centre instead of wondering about on the flanks

jojomk1 · Post by **jojomk1** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:53 pm

There are no errors
Its just a learning curve for a manager with a new squad in a new league
Early on he realised he had to protect Jay's fitness ability to effect a game
Hopefully he now realises that Cork is in a similar state and cannot play 3 full games in a week
Maatsen may be better than Vitinho going forward but poor when asked to defend
Still questions as to who are the better wide men on both sides - Benson seeming to be the only one capable of beating a man down the outside to cross in
Still questions as to who is going to be the better No 10
Has Roberts shown himself to be so much better than Lowton

The squad is now finalised for the rest of this year and daily training plus games will hopefully bring about further ideas for the manager to try

jos · Post by **jos** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:58 pm

All he has to do is inwardly digest the comments made on this forum and jobs a good ‘un.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:09 pm

jdrobbo wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:13 am
Don’t agree. He was absolutely excellent until minute 36 when he got booked. After that he was stand-offish and the game passed him by.

I’d agree with this robbo except it was Cork’s passing that was not up to his usual high standard and that cannot be attributed to his booking.
It sounds like a convenient excuse and feel the fact is more likely to be that Cork’s legs cannot cope with 3 games in a week.

I doubt VK will make that decision again

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:20 pm

What we meed to remember os that there are 24 teams in this division, not just us.

They are all trying to win and at times have great spells. We are the target, firstly because we were the 18th place side to come down who was up there the longest, secondly because of Kompany. We simply won’t have it our own way all the time. It isn’t always about Cork’s legs or Roberts’ defending.

It’s a fair point VK made about many of the players not yet being acclimatised into the group and the system. It’s all about space the way his teams play, so players need to be aware of each other with instinct. The one big disappointment for me was Maatsen but he needed to get back in the saddle and I suspect he got a bit carried away with his early games and needs to settle down again, he’s not a world beater yet. Hopefully his Coventry experience last season helps him because he looked a bit shellshocked how he was raided down his wing, like Blackpool did.

jdrobbo · Post by **jdrobbo** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:05 pm

Elizabeth wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:09 pm
I’d agree with this robbo except it was Cork’s passing that was not up to his usual high standard and that cannot be attributed to his booking.
It sounds like a convenient excuse and feel the fact is more likely to be that Cork’s legs cannot cope with 3 games in a week.

I doubt VK will make that decision again

You might well be right

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:09 pm

I would have taken Maatsen and Cork off at half time for Churlinov and Bastien, then brought Benson on for the ineffective Brownhill after 65 mins.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:36 pm

Raconteur wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:24 am
Apologies JD, i quoted the wrong post.

Cork was ok until the booking. I don't know how Kompany could have been bold ( as you say) and not started Cork. Did he know before the game that Cork was going to get booked and then have a poorish game.
Kompany is a good coach but he doesn't have a crystal ball. He is not psychic.

I said it would have been a "bold" decision to leave Cork out, and in saying such, I was admitting that Kompany had no real option but to play him, but we know that this is going to be a very long season, and Kompany has said that we need 2 in each position.
My point was that with only a short break between Tuesday evening and Friday, there was an argument for putting Cork on the bench and putting Brownhill or Bastien alongside Cullen considering the way that matches have come thick and fast and Cork isn't getting any younger.
As I said, Kompany would have got pelters on here had he left Cork out, but it was clear watching the match, and re- watching it today that Cork was nowhere near the level that he has been at in recent games.
Kompany didn't get it wrong, but I think he will have learnt from this, and it may well be that in the future he doesn't start Cork 3 games in a week.
(Only my thoughts of course, and no criticism of Cork, who up to last night has been excellent).

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:34 pm

Sometimes we just have to accept that anther club gets it right on the day.
For me it's a point gained, we were lucky to get it.
looking through various threads I've seen criticism of about half the team and the manager. Ridiculous over-reaction.

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:49 pm

1 .West Brom were best we’d played and away -full house
2. Outrageous 8 min added , they scored last min
3. Denied the most stonewall pen almost ever.
4. Ultimately a close exciting competitive game
5. Barnes and ( prob) JBG will be phased out quickly .
6. Darko given good show .
7. It’s the championship

Maybe we’ve bought a few too many players but Vinny’s doing just fine IMO

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:53 pm

AlargeClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:49 pm
1 .West Brom were best we’d played and away -full house
2. Outrageous 8 min added , they scored last min
3. Denied the most stonewall pen almost ever.
4. Ultimately a close exciting competitive game
5. Barnes and ( prob) JBG will be phased out quickly .
6. Darko given good show .
7. It’s the championship

Maybe we’ve bought a few too many players but Vinny’s doing just fine IMO

Re point 2, would love someone with it recorded to add up the stoppages. I’d had a few beers so can’t really recall but it did feel 8 minutes which is almost unheard of.

Also thought Darko looked very good.

AlargeClaret · Post by **AlargeClaret** » Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:58 pm

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:53 pm
Re point 2, would love someone with it recorded to add up the stoppages. I’d had a few beers so can’t really recall but it did feel 8 minutes which is almost unheard of.

Also thought Darko looked very good.

Darko did indeed look good , I feel he’ll be a bit of comedy villian , great shows and shockers with his style .