Don't worry ... They willNewClaret wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:31 pmThe Wigan and Blackpool games definitely mask the goals for. Milwall took us 60 minutes to score and Bristol I forget but it was later on in the second.
I hope others are right and everything “clicks” as people keep saying it will, but a quarter of the season in I feel we’re a way off a promotion team.
I’m happy for this thread to be bumped in May for every one to rub my face in it. Nobody will be happier than me to be proved wrong. Just how I see things after a quarter of the season.
We’re not good enough to go up
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Don’t think I’ve said anywhere that I expect teams to lie down and let us beat them. Or that I expect us to beat teams. Just that we don’t look good enough to do it on merit at the moment.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:33 pmIsn't it amazing that these 2nd tier clubs don't just lie down and let us batter them.
some of you need a reality check.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I don't recall quoting you.
Chill out, enjoy the football, it's not at all bad and we can't win them all.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I think it was the Preston manager who said they were happy to concede possession to us.Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:34 pmI’ll be honest I’m not sure what we are yet as we have so many untried players.
From what I’ve seen we have the makings of a really good team but I think it’s going to take time.
With the amount of the ball we see each game I think we should be scoring more.
Oddly though, we look worse after we score. I keep thinking when we get one that games will open up and we’ll go on to beat a teams convincingly, but doesn’t seem to happen.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I’m really happy with us apart from aerially at the back but my only other concern when the weather turns cold, dark and foul is whether this is a team who will play well in those conditions.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
We're not likely to at this point. It's a new team and we've played less than a quarter of the season.
Not having a go but I don't get why people feel they need to come on and make these big statements.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
If we don't win this league we'll come second.
It's really annoying and disappointing that we only drew today (especially the manner of it) but that's because we're really good. Most teams in this league are happy after away draws.
It's really annoying and disappointing that we only drew today (especially the manner of it) but that's because we're really good. Most teams in this league are happy after away draws.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
At what point might it become likely? Or would your view be that we just need this season as a transition/bedding in and it just won’t happen this year?quoonbeatz wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:57 pmWe're not likely to at this point. It's a new team and we've played less than a quarter of the season.
Not having a go but I don't get why people feel they need to come on and make these big statements.
It wasn’t really intended as a provocative statement - just an opinion after watching a good chunk of games that we’re a way off where we would need to be to go up.
One thing I do like about VK is that he seems to know it. Said after that the subs didn’t work but that we weren’t playing well beforehand either. That gives me some hope, whereas I never got any from Dyche when we were miles off it.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
We're not way off though are we. We're 6 points away so right now we're pretty well placed and there's plenty of room for improvement.NewClaret wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:08 pmAt what point might it become likely? Or would your view be that we just need this season as a transition/bedding in and it just won’t happen this year?
It wasn’t really intended as a provocative statement - just an opinion after watching a good chunk of games that we’re a way off where we would need to be to go up.
One thing I do like about VK is that he seems to know it. Said after that the subs didn’t work but that we weren’t playing well beforehand either. That gives me some hope, whereas I never got any from Dyche when we were miles off it.
One game at a time and see where we end up.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Wet wipes point on the road ain’t to bad win on Wednesday all will be fine
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
When they were chasing they had one player back on the half way line. We had all 11 back. Why didn't we have Benson on the half way line? It would have either taken another player to go back or we could have cleared it for Benson to run on to. No good clearing it to nobody.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Can’t believe the amount of whinging I’ve logged on to. We are in the top 6, we were a little rusty due to the international break. Get a grip. We are good enough to go up as is every other team in the top 6. Just enjoy the season.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
For me, I think we are far more likely to go on a good run, where we win several games back to back, than we are to go on a bad run. We will therefore be there or there about at the end of the season.
UTC
UTC
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Totally agree. We are on an 8 game unbeaten run and have just come away from a tricky away game with a point after playing badly. That is the sign of a good team. I think automatic is more than do-able...and even the Championship.ArmchairDetective wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:20 pm4th in the league and very much still figuring things out. Bit early to rule us out just yet for me.
Look at the teams above us.
1. Sheffield Utd...excellent without a doubt but have just dropped points at home to a poor Birmingham and I believe are as good as they are going to get.
2. Norwich...very good side but again I believe because of continuity of players they are probably as good as they are going to get.
3. Reading...surprise package. Will they go the distance? Looking at the last 2/3 years it’s a big ask but who knows.
4. Burnley...new manager and new team who a few weeks ago mostly didn’t even know each other. We are playing great football and dominating teams in the main. We are a work in progress with good players injured who will hopefully make us even stronger. Unlike Sheffield Utd and Norwich I think we will get even better and there is always the January window to improve even more.
There will be setbacks along the way but I think a few on here should maybe reserve judgement until this team gel and see where we are after Christmas.
NB...at least we aren’t a one man team like our friends down the road.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
We are good enough to go up. The league really isn’t that great is it. However what this side currently isn’t is good enough to stop up if they go up. We’d get absolutely hammered in many many games with how poor we can be as a defensive unit.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
In that event there would be big signings though. That lad from Metz would have improved us hugely at the back, and that is in this league. In the PL we would have much more pulling power to get even better players. Also, half of our back four are on loan and the other half played in the PL with us before.
I do though worry about this system and how wingers don’t protect fullbacks. So there may be a “defensive unit” issue too I would agree.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Not getting Kouyate was a big loss I feel.
Kouyate - dominant centre half
Twine - the number 10 we lack
Obafemi - fast forward who loves to run at players
Just consider the difference these could make
Kouyate - dominant centre half
Twine - the number 10 we lack
Obafemi - fast forward who loves to run at players
Just consider the difference these could make
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Just a bit puzzled. Some are saying we are a quarter into the season and deciding we aren’t good enough to go up but yet here we are after that quarter season in fourth...a play off spot.
Could someone explain the logic?
Could someone explain the logic?
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
If we had held out we would have been right on the heels of the top 2… and as people has said we are learning all the time,
Talk about over reaction.
We could do with a bit more cutting edge and Barnes looks hopelessly out of form. But we’ve had 8 things go right for the couple of problems.
We have brought in a huge number of players and none of the ones Ive seen have looked like a dud.
If we are going to play money ball we’ve done the first round as well as we could have expected. Just a shame Tella and THB are loans.
The future looks very bright and ever week we might click and score 4 or 5. We just need to have patience.
Talk about over reaction.
We could do with a bit more cutting edge and Barnes looks hopelessly out of form. But we’ve had 8 things go right for the couple of problems.
We have brought in a huge number of players and none of the ones Ive seen have looked like a dud.
If we are going to play money ball we’ve done the first round as well as we could have expected. Just a shame Tella and THB are loans.
The future looks very bright and ever week we might click and score 4 or 5. We just need to have patience.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
2 years ago I said Barnes was no good now at PL level but Dyche kept using him.
I was right.
I also said he still had a future in the Championship.
I was wrong.
I was right.
I also said he still had a future in the Championship.
I was wrong.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Taylor was our best player yesterday and THB one of the most consistent all season so not sure on Kouyate (to some extent).
Twine would allow this team to control games more but also go through the gears when in control. Really gutted he’s missed so much and looks to be out a while longer yet.
Obafemi - well Swansea wanted something ridiculous like 9m rising to 12 so I’m not surprised we didn’t go for that. Haven’t seen enough of Dervisoglu yet and hope he’s not injured too. From what I’ve seen previously he’s a major upgrade on Barnes though.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Neither of the Taylors are what you'd call dominant though. No idea if Kouyate would have been the answer but we are missing an experienced, dominant centre half. Taylor is the most experienced of our back 4 but not in the position he's currently playing.
That's no slight on the Taylors, they are both playing very well but we are certainly lacking that organiser to drag help everyone keep their positions.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Obafemi is a very good player who will take chances that come his way , i think it's something we are missing and if we land him in Jan we will become unstoppable .RVclaret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:01 amTaylor was our best player yesterday and THB one of the most consistent all season so not sure on Kouyate (to some extent).
Twine would allow this team to control games more but also go through the gears when in control. Really gutted he’s missed so much and looks to be out a while longer yet.
Obafemi - well Swansea wanted something ridiculous like 9m rising to 12 so I’m not surprised we didn’t go for that. Haven’t seen enough of Dervisoglu yet and hope he’s not injured too. From what I’ve seen previously he’s a major upgrade on Barnes though.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
It is worth bearing in mind that immediately before the international break we beat, and outplayed, a much fancied Bristol City team in impressive fashion. So we need to be wary of overreacting to one disappointing result coming right after an international break - which tenda to be a vulnerable time for all the reasons Kompany outlined yesterday.
Give or take the reliance on Jay, I'm not concerned about us as an attacking force. We can be a little stilted at times but that reflects the newness of the team - and the signs from the Bristol City game amongst others generally suggest that with a little more familiarity we'll be a force.
That said, this habit of surrendering leads is a concern and any team that is conceding goals as basic as yesterday's regularly will be at a massive disadvantage in the promotion race. There's no excuse for such a percentage long ball catching us so short manned in our defensive left, or for THB being out jumped so easily - or for Roberts completely failing to defend the back post. Generally our defensive stats are good and suggest concerns about physicality are a touch overdone but nonetheless a lot is riding on Beyer establishing himself and it was a surprise he didn't come on to shore us up yesterday. He should start in the week and you can make an argument for him playing right back instead of Roberts or centre back in place of Taylor or Maatsen (with Taylor shifting across one to what is still his best position).
Give or take the reliance on Jay, I'm not concerned about us as an attacking force. We can be a little stilted at times but that reflects the newness of the team - and the signs from the Bristol City game amongst others generally suggest that with a little more familiarity we'll be a force.
That said, this habit of surrendering leads is a concern and any team that is conceding goals as basic as yesterday's regularly will be at a massive disadvantage in the promotion race. There's no excuse for such a percentage long ball catching us so short manned in our defensive left, or for THB being out jumped so easily - or for Roberts completely failing to defend the back post. Generally our defensive stats are good and suggest concerns about physicality are a touch overdone but nonetheless a lot is riding on Beyer establishing himself and it was a surprise he didn't come on to shore us up yesterday. He should start in the week and you can make an argument for him playing right back instead of Roberts or centre back in place of Taylor or Maatsen (with Taylor shifting across one to what is still his best position).
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Roberts needs selling in January, fingers crossed he has a great World Cup and we get a decent fee.
Blokes a legend in his own head.
Blokes a legend in his own head.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Every single week, all I keep hearing isclaretspice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:18 pmIt is worth bearing in mind that immediately before the international break we beat, and outplayed, a much fancied Bristol City team in impressive fashion. So we need to be wary of overreacting to one disappointing result coming right after an international break
"These will be a tough team"
"Toughest game of the season so far"
"A point will be a good result"
My thinking is that we're the best team in this division and we should be expecting a win against any side - I don't care who it is.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Seems a little harsh singling out Roberts for the goal. His position wasn't great but the shape was in line with Kompany’s regular instructions and formation with Maatsen dropping into a three on this occasion. Even if Roberts defended the back post it wouldn't have prevented the goal - Harwood-Bellis was beaten in the air in a more central position.claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:18 pmIt is worth bearing in mind that immediately before the international break we beat, and outplayed, a much fancied Bristol City team in impressive fashion. So we need to be wary of overreacting to one disappointing result coming right after an international break - which tenda to be a vulnerable time for all the reasons Kompany outlined yesterday.
Give or take the reliance on Jay, I'm not concerned about us as an attacking force. We can be a little stilted at times but that reflects the newness of the team - and the signs from the Bristol City game amongst others generally suggest that with a little more familiarity we'll be a force.
That said, this habit of surrendering leads is a concern and any team that is conceding goals as basic as yesterday's regularly will be at a massive disadvantage in the promotion race. There's no excuse for such a percentage long ball catching us so short manned in our defensive left, or for THB being out jumped so easily - or for Roberts completely failing to defend the back post. Generally our defensive stats are good and suggest concerns about physicality are a touch overdone but nonetheless a lot is riding on Beyer establishing himself and it was a surprise he didn't come on to shore us up yesterday. He should start in the week and you can make an argument for him playing right back instead of Roberts or centre back in place of Taylor or Maatsen (with Taylor shifting across one to what is still his best position).
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Maatsen currently is the most creative player (out of all positions) in the Championship according to the data. As well, two assists in his last two games. Key to how VK wants us to play imo.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
The understandable trade off is that we will be vulnerable defensively on the left at times as a result.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Not really comparing like with like. But not my point in any case which was about natural trade offs and considering the broader picture rather than a narrow look at particular statistics. Maatsen is doing well.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I wasn't singling him out. He's one of several players, including THB, Cullen and Zaroury who could and should do better.taio wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:27 pmSeems a little harsh singling out Roberts for the goal. His position wasn't great but the shape was in line with Kompany’s regular instructions and formation with Maatsen dropping into a three on this occasion. Even if Roberts defended the back post it wouldn't have prevented the goal - Harwood-Bellis was beaten in the air in a more central position.
But I don't agree with you on his positioning. For one thing the step inside thing is generally about how we play in possession. We were defending all the way through the phase right from the long ball - and I'm certain Kompany isn't changing defensive orthodoxy that says the right back defends the back post in that situation. Having jogged back, he's 10 yards beyond the post for no reason, marking no one. When Robinson makes contact hes drifted from the centre of the goal to about a foot inside the back post (you can judge from the grass cutting pattern). I've watched our right backs head that cross away 100s of times in the last decade. THB should do better but he's back peddling because of the movement- Roberts should be coming onto the ball.
I say this having defended Roberts all season. He has to do better there. That said I think Kompany has to take a bit of blame for the position we ended up in - the previous chance Muric saved came from an equally large hole in front of Maatsen where Zaroury should be. Bringing Benson and Zaroury on when you're defending a lead seems a bit romantic to me and certainly on the left we needed Bastien or Brownhill to protect Mastsen. If he wants Zaroury on - and why not - then it'd make more sense to use him up front with Barnes and keep the solid shape behind.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Maatsen will always be a conundrum. I think he's got huge attributes and has generally done well - but it's not a criticism of him to say that Taylor, with over 100 PL games behind him, might be a better all round bet. If Maatsen is playing then there will be times when Kompany just has to sit someone disciplined in front of him. That clearly isn't Zaroury and leaving those two to patrolling that flank in the last 30 yesterday seems to me to be a mistake borne of naivety.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
You may not be the most knowledgable of football fans, but you don't need to be to know that you don't drop Maatsen.claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:54 pmMaatsen will always be a conundrum. I think he's got huge attributes and has generally done OK - but it's not a criticism of him to say that Taylor, with over 100 PL games behind him, might be a better all round bet. If Maatsen is playing then there will be times when Kompany just has to sit someone disciplined in front of him. That clearly isn't Zaroury and leaving those two to patrolling that flank in the last 30 yesterday seems to me to be a mistake borne of naivety.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
We have a lot of strength in depth which is really refreshing. But I feel our bench is much more suited to being used when we need a goal than it is to see a game out. JBG for example is a no-frills wide player, you know what you’re going to get. But I’d much rather be bringing him on for the last 20 minutes at 1-0 up than taking him off for Benson. Similarly Zaroury for Tella.claretspice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:54 pmMaatsen will always be a conundrum. I think he's got huge attributes and has generally done well - but it's not a criticism of him to say that Taylor, with over 100 PL games behind him, might be a better all round bet. If Maatsen is playing then there will be times when Kompany just has to sit someone disciplined in front of him. That clearly isn't Zaroury and leaving those two to patrolling that flank in the last 30 yesterday seems to me to be a mistake borne of naivety.
Bringing Barnes on for Jay always makes us weaker so to triple down on that change by also structurally weakening both flanks was a really poor move by Kompany. Arguably Bastien for Brownhill at that stage of the game was also unnecessary.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
VK is an attacking manager, so understandable really.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:11 pmI feel our bench is much more suited to being used when we need a goal than it is to see a game out. JBG for example is a no-frills wide player, you know what you’re going to get. But I’d much rather be bringing him on for the last 20 minutes at 1-0 up than taking him off for Benson. Similarly Zaroury for Tella.
Bringing Barnes on for Jay always makes us weaker so to triple down on that change by also structurally weakening both flanks was a really poor move by Kompany. Arguably Bastien for Brownhill at that stage of the game was also unnecessary.
However - before yesterday, you wouldn't have said that Zaroury for Tella was weakening the side, that comment is very much in hindsight - something people on here appear to be experts at.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I said ‘structurally weakening’, as in weakening the shape and organisation of the team.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
You did, but you mixed it with the Barnes and Jay sentence, so it was difficult to decipher - especially as they are both similar players in that they both have superb control and run at the defence. So I'm not sure that sub by itself changed the shape at all.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Especially if it’s a cold night at StokeCrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:51 pmI’m really happy with us apart from aerially at the back but my only other concern when the weather turns cold, dark and foul is whether this is a team who will play well in those conditions.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Tend to agree with that. Completely understand why he'd want Benson or Zaroury on at 1-0 and there's a risk and reward equation there, but there's a place for pragmatism too on a day when we weren't at our best. The way we set up to see the game out at Huddersfield, for example. I do think too that these days it's easy to make too many changes and undermine momentum.Rileybobs wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:11 pmWe have a lot of strength in depth which is really refreshing. But I feel our bench is much more suited to being used when we need a goal than it is to see a game out. JBG for example is a no-frills wide player, you know what you’re going to get. But I’d much rather be bringing him on for the last 20 minutes at 1-0 up than taking him off for Benson. Similarly Zaroury for Tella.
Bringing Barnes on for Jay always makes us weaker so to triple down on that change by also structurally weakening both flanks was a really poor move by Kompany. Arguably Bastien for Brownhill at that stage of the game was also unnecessary.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I saidjen1066 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:23 pmYou did, but you mixed it with the Barnes and Jay sentence, so it was difficult to decipher - especially as they are both similar players in that they both have superb control and run at the defence. So I'm not sure that sub by itself changed the shape at all.
‘Bringing Barnes on for Jay always makes us weaker so to triple down on that change by also structurally weakening both flanks was a really poor move by Kompany.’
Our ball retention is poorer when Barnes replaces Jay, he doesn’t find the little pockets of space anywhere near as effectively as Jay - we’re weaker as a result. I didn’t say that substitution changed the shape. But Zaroury and Benson for Tella and JBG makes us defensively weaker, as the former are both more disciplined when out of possession.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I agree with that. But he's an attacking manager, so I don't blame him for it. He went for the second goal.
However. JBG is an experienced pro, and there is always the argument that bringing someone like that on is a good move.
Had he made a defensive change you'd have had 5 posters on here complaining.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
My criticism would be that whilst we bring on attacking players, I wouldn’t say that we really go for the second goal. We have a tendency to sit back on a one goal lead. The tempo drops, the whole team drops back and we seem happy to let the other team have possession. Whether this is intentional and instructed by VK or whether it’s just a failing of the players on the pitch remains to be seen.jen1066 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:41 pmI agree with that. But he's an attacking manager, so I don't blame him for it. He went for the second goal.
However. JBG is an experienced pro, and there is always the argument that bringing someone like that on is a good move.
Had he made a defensive change you'd have had 5 posters on here complaining.
We’re such a good possession side, and have such an obvious chink in our armour defensively that I think our best form of defence is to out-football the opposition, which we know we’re capable of - although yesterday was an off-day.
Re: We’re not good enough to go up
We've yet to play any of the other sides from the current top six
Four of them to play before WC break
That will give us a more realistic idea on how good, or not, we are
Four of them to play before WC break
That will give us a more realistic idea on how good, or not, we are
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
I'd suggest that if we are top 6 by January and can do a bit in the market then, we have every chance of being good enough.
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Re: We’re not good enough to go up
Whether automatic promotion is achievable or not will also depend largely on what the other top teams, notably Sheff Utd and Norwich do. At their current trajectory we will need to amass 97 points to win automatic promotion, at over 2.25 points per game this seems extremely unlikely to me.
Of course one of these teams, or maybe both, may not keep up this pace.
But whilst being in the top 6 in January would be ok, if we’re 12 points off the top two then we’ll very likely have left ourselves too much to do. Important that we get better at seeing these games out as we’ve dropped too many points from very strong positions this season, and not won many from poor positions.
Of course one of these teams, or maybe both, may not keep up this pace.
But whilst being in the top 6 in January would be ok, if we’re 12 points off the top two then we’ll very likely have left ourselves too much to do. Important that we get better at seeing these games out as we’ve dropped too many points from very strong positions this season, and not won many from poor positions.