Their goal

[Tricky Trevor]

Saw Vitinho was getting some stick but he couldn’t have done more. If he gets any closer the guy on the ball would have fed the overlapper in.
It went very close to Muric, who was slow to his right again. Saw him limping, caused by his right ankle, late on. Was it the same as at Baggies? If so he might have a problem that needs addressing.

A40C318E-74F6-4D68-9720-B7BE7999538B.jpeg (185.64 KiB) Viewed 3204 times

[Tread Warily]

A chainsaw might be required.

[claretspice]

I don't think the goal is Vitinho's fault at all. Nor do I particularly think it's Muric's fault. It's a very good header, not that far away from the corner snd whilst a top keeper might save it, I don't think Muric can be blamed for not doing so.

I do think its a bad team goal though which reveals much about our present shortcomings though. Roberts clearly should do better - there's no intensity to his challenge at the back post (an improvement on Saturday when he was in no position to challenge at all). Cullen and Brownhill are both a little lackadaisical in their attempts to stop the counter-attack at source. JBG is never in the game and Tella (possibly carrying a touch of cramp) is initially caught goal side of the overlapping full back you identify, and then doesn't sprint back. All round it's a bit complacent.

This is very similar to Saturday- midfield taken out of the game too easily, wide players not in a position to or trying hard enough to influence the game, cross allowed in too easily as a result and insufficient pressure on the attacker.

It boils down to a lack of intensity and a lack of defensive shape. The latter is OK if you are all out committed to scoring goals, but we were clearly in "see the game out" mode and had been for 5 minutes plus. I don't quite understand why we didn't go 442 with JBG and Brownhill wide and Tella (or a sub) up front.

So - there's a tactical and attitude challenge for Kompany, his staff and players to unwind. Quickly, if they have the ambition to get promoted this season.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Wonder if the Stoke fans will mock their manager chucking a centre half on as a sub and putting him upfront while chasing the game who then scored

[claretspice]

I may be wrong but I don't think they did put him up front. I think he came on and they reorganised to a back 4 with the wing backs playing as wide midfielders and Clarke completing the back 4. It just so happened that having made territory down our right he continued his run to get in the box and score the goal.

That incidentally is one reason I thought we'd match them in the last 10 minutes. Kompany knows 442 and has played it, yet he allowed Stoke whilst chasing the game to have a natural overload on both sides given the attacking positioning of our wingers. That calculation is OK if you can use the central midfield 3 to dominate the ball, but Stoke's extra intensity was making that harder for us and as a result we were exposed more than we should have been.

[KRBFC]

I've been an advocate of Roberts but is that 3 times in the final minutes he's cost us on the back post?

[KRBFC]

Their goal also came after weak play from the one footed JBG, who then conceded a free kick. If we win that freekick, we probably win the game.

[claretspice]

I've been an advocate of Roberts but is that 3 times in the final minutes he's cost us on the back post?

Yes although I've every sympathy with the first (WBA) because it's just an error. The other two are are more culpable because he's just not done the basics.

[KRBFC]

I think Harwood Bellis has to take control there tbh

[claretspice]

Not sure he can last night. It's a decent ball measured to take him out of the equation - a function of the time we afforded the cross. Cardiff is similar and I think Roberts is probably more culpable there than THB although on that occasion I'd certainly be more critical of THB.

Thinking back though you are right about the free kick. We were slow to react and that is another example of us being a bit lackadaisical. The highlights pick up JBG 20 yards off Brownhill and I'm not sure how that gap opened up, and it reflects badly on Tella's position too. Once we give away the FK, they should be back making 2 banks of 4.

[claretandy]

Not sure how you can blame Roberts for THB getting beat in the air against Cardiff.

[whiffa]

I picture that ball into the box with Tarky, Mee or Pope all coming to claim it or head it away with ease. We just need to accept we're in the Championship now and we have a younger squad that are either going to develop into players like the aformentioned, or stay at Championship level for a reason.

I find it more frustrating that we've conceded so late into a game that we've dominated again, than the errors with the actual goal we conceded. We didn't really look like conceding and weren't under pressure.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think everyone concerned can do better, including Muric, but its essentially a gaol conceded in the 87th minute of a game in which we should have been out of sight

[claretspice]

Not sure how you can blame Roberts for THB getting beat in the air against Cardiff.

Cos THB was backpeddling to make a challenge in the zone Roberts should have been managing. He was caught day dreaming down the right flank and ended up in no man's land.

Last night's goal was scored from a header from a virtually identical position. Roberts was in the position then he should have been in on Saturday (he just wasn't strong enough)

[claretspice]

I think everyone concerned can do better, including Muric, but its essentially a gaol conceded in the 87th minute of a game in which we should have been out of sight

But we weren't lancs so we had to defend it better. Its such a basic goal.

[jrgbfc]

I don't think the goal is Vitinho's fault at all. Nor do I particularly think it's Muric's fault. It's a very good header, not that far away from the corner snd whilst a top keeper might save it, I don't think Muric can be blamed for not doing so.

I do think its a bad team goal though which reveals much about our present shortcomings though. Roberts clearly should do better - there's no intensity to his challenge at the back post (an improvement on Saturday when he was in no position to challenge at all). Cullen and Brownhill are both a little lackadaisical in their attempts to stop the counter-attack at source. JBG is never in the game and Tella (possibly carrying a touch of cramp) is initially caught goal side of the overlapping full back you identify, and then doesn't sprint back. All round it's a bit complacent.

This is very similar to Saturday- midfield taken out of the game too easily, wide players not in a position to or trying hard enough to influence the game, cross allowed in too easily as a result and insufficient pressure on the attacker.

It boils down to a lack of intensity and a lack of defensive shape. The latter is OK if you are all out committed to scoring goals, but we were clearly in "see the game out" mode and had been for 5 minutes plus. I don't quite understand why we didn't go 442 with JBG and Brownhill wide and Tella (or a sub) up front.

So - there's a tactical and attitude challenge for Kompany, his staff and players to unwind. Quickly, if they have the ambition to get promoted this season.

We seemed to go into "see the game out" mode the minute we scored. There was no drive or urgency whatsoever to score a second and kill the game off. Was a very strange 30 minutes, of just "nothingness" really.

[ElectroClaret]

Isn't there a possibility that you're over-analysing things, Spice?

It could be said we simply struggle with high balls into the box (for whatever reason).
It's looking like it with all the points weve dropped in pretty identical circumstances.

We should be closing these games out.

[claretspice]

Isn't there a possibility that you're over-analysing things, Spice?

It could be said we simply struggle with high balls into the box (for whatever reason).
It's looking like it with all the points weve dropped in pretty identical circumstances.

We should be closing these games out.

Well yes. But that begs a question- why are we so vulnerable, so it's worth answering it. And a quick glance at the goals conceded confirms its not per se due to a lack of height.

[claretandy]

Cos THB was backpeddling to make a challenge in the zone Roberts should have been managing. He was caught day dreaming down the right flank and ended up in no man's land.

Last night's goal was scored from a header from a virtually identical position. Roberts was in the position then he should have been in on Saturday (he just wasn't strong enough)

I prefer my centre halfs to mark the dangerman, and not an empty space.

[claretspice]

I prefer my centre halfs to mark the dangerman, and not an empty space.

I agree. I prefer my full backs to do the same though, which is my point- particularly when the space they are marking is not a useful one.

[Firthy]

Basically poor marking. Roberts stood off him and allowed him the time to place the header. IMO Roberts should have been much closer and challenging for the header.

[KRBFC]

Not sure he can last night. It's a decent ball measured to take him out of the equation - a function of the time we afforded the cross. Cardiff is similar and I think Roberts is probably more culpable there than THB although on that occasion I'd certainly be more critical of THB.

Thinking back though you are right about the free kick. We were slow to react and that is another example of us being a bit lackadaisical. The highlights pick up JBG 20 yards off Brownhill and I'm not sure how that gap opened up, and it reflects badly on Tella's position too. Once we give away the FK, they should be back making 2 banks of 4.

Disappointing we've been done with a last minute header from an opposition defender running the length of the pitch into our penalty area while our 2 central defenders are marking space and leaving Roberts to challenge for it in the air. THB should be tunnel visioned on the goalscorer the minute he enters our area.

[KRBFC]

as for JBG, why he is keeping hold of the ball and then giving away a free kick, I have no idea. Pass the ball inside to an open team mate, held on to it way too long and showed his one footedness and lack of ability to beat a man.

[KRBFC]

Roberts is also in a bit of a mess, there's a guy completely free behind him (which is his man). Tough one for him, that's on the defenders. And where is Gudmundsson? he just lost the ball and gave away a free kick, the freshest legs on the pitch and nowhere to be seen.

[quoonbeatz]

Roberts wasn't at fault last night. Their man was taller and had the run on him. He was never going to win the header or out him off with a challenge. Decent goal from them but one we should have cut out before it got to the cross.

[RVclaret]

Just seen an interview with Brownhill where he admits he should have brought down their man on the wing

[claretspice]

Disappointing we've been done with a last minute header from an opposition defender running the length of the pitch into our penalty area while our 2 central defenders are marking space and leaving Roberts to challenge for it in the air. THB should be tunnel visioned on the goalscorer the minute he enters our area.

Harsh I think. If THB goes back post he leaves an enormous gap between him and Bayer that I don't think is in any coaching manual - and there's a man well positioned to attack that space. THB is entitled to assume Roberts competes with fellow full back at the back post, in which case there's no issue.

[Spijed]

It's disappointing that as yet VK hasn't been able to transfer his knowledge as a top class defender into management. As a player he would certainly have been able to read the situation better than the team did last night.

What's also frustrating is that we have little experience in defence which is obviously partly to blame for the lack of game management in these situations. Surely that's down to recruitment.

[Quickenthetempo]

Just seen an interview with Brownhill where he admits he should have brought down their man on the wing

Ww shouldn't have to foul to keep the ball out of our net though.

If you want to pack your defence with ball playing/attack minded defenders, you have to score 2 or more goals every game to win.
Or be very lucky.

[Vegas Claret]

The sooner we have a settled back four the better. Robert THB Beyer and Taylor back at left back please. Maatsen further forward if needs be

[SalisburyClaret]

Small player crouches down with his hands behind his back - he's not going to cut out a cross or make a challenge.
Roberts is flat footed
Goalkeeper reacts quickly but for some reason doesn't go near the ball

[warksclaret]

as for JBG, why he is keeping hold of the ball and then giving away a free kick, I have no idea. Pass the ball inside to an open team mate, held on to it way too long and showed his one footedness and lack of ability to beat a man.

The way we play our football now is too quick for both JBG and Barnes. THey are both still used to Dyche tempo

[dougcollins]

Basically poor marking. Roberts stood off him and allowed him the time to place the header. IMO Roberts should have been much closer and challenging for the header.

Indeed. Height is not the issue, Trippier always showed how you could make it difficult for a taller man (as forwards invariably were) to get his head on the ball.

[boyyanno]

The sooner we have a settled back four the better. Robert THB Beyer and Taylor back at left back please. Maatsen further forward if needs be

I dont think Vitinho has done anything to warrant dropping to be honest. He has looked defensively more solid than Maatsen and given the majority of the defense have made errors resulting in goals this year he's one of the only ones who hasn't. He starts for me, Maatsen further forward if required. I'd prefer to see Beyer in at RB for Roberts and Taylor and THB in the middle with Vitinho out left. Robert's is the weakest link imo.

[boatshed bill]

Yes although I've every sympathy with the first (WBA) because it's just an error. The other two are are more culpable because he's just not done the basics.

I thought THB jumped with the Cardiff scorer?

[Firthy]

Vitinho did nothing wrong he was marking the man with the ball and if you look at the video there were two other Stoke players running outside so Vitinho had to be prepared for the pass outside so couldn't dive in. It was just a bloody good opportunistic cross. THB was stuck in no mans land in the middle. Roberts was the closest to the scorer and stood off as he ran in and his fault was standing off and not challenging for the header but it's easy to say in hindsight. It was a great cross and well taken goal. The biggest mistake was the sloppy play just before when we gave them posession and allowed them the opportunity to attack.

[KlyBfc]

Disagree on this in regards to Vitinho. He can be and should be closer to the winger he’s in no man’s land standing off the winger and doing that inside our own area is not acceptable and fundamentally cost us a goal. He doesn’t need to commit completely to a tackle and be really tight , he just needs to be close enough to engage if needed and to pressure the crosser whilst still being able to cover the over lap. That is doable with a step or so forward, and for me the man with the ball should always be the primary concern as they will always be primary danger. The winger had all the time in the world to pick that cross out.

What I do agree with is we are very complacent in our defensive duties as a TEAM and we don’t seem to have the mindset that engaging and battling your opponents and defending your goal is as important as say ball possession..

[NewClaret]

Vitinho did nothing wrong he was marking the man with the ball and if you look at the video there were two other Stoke players running outside so Vitinho had to be prepared for the pass outside so couldn't dive in. It was just a bloody good opportunistic cross. THB was stuck in no mans land in the middle. Roberts was the closest to the scorer and stood off as he ran in and his fault was standing off and not challenging for the header but it's easy to say in hindsight. It was a great cross and well taken goal. The biggest mistake was the sloppy play just before when we gave them posession and allowed them the opportunity to attack.

Good goal once they got in to that position as you say.

Shouldn’t have been allowed to get in to that position.

[Rileybobs]

A lot to unpick in the build up, particularly how we were caught out so exposed from an uncontested drop ball. But that is diabolical goalkeeping from Muric, I thought so at the time from the JMU but wanted to see it back to get a better perspective. The view from in front of the goal is damming. His feet don’t even leave the floor for what should be a fairly routine save.

It’s ok picking the bones out of everything else because there were plenty of individual errors, but the keeper is there as the last line of defence and for the second game running he’s let in a very soft effort. He must improve.

[basil6345789]

A goal up with a few minutes to go - you play 6 at the back if you have to - we were outnumbered!

[conyoviejo]

T'was a good goal.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Ultimately, as the picture at the top shows, we have six back when defending but little wide cover so as they attack down our flanks we get exposed. Very unlike a Dyche setup. We don’t really pull back or track back our wide midfielders.

West Brom exposed this very well.

[Spijed]

Ultimately, as the picture at the top shows, we have six back when defending but little wide cover so as they attack down our flanks we get exposed. Very unlike a Dyche setup. We don’t really pull back or track back our wide midfielders.

West Brom exposed this very well.

As we clearly struggle with crosses into the box I'm surprised teams aren't putting far more pressure on us earlier in the game.

[It Is What It Is]

Good cross, good header, good goal.
Hard to defend a cross like that.

[warksclaret]

If a cross is put in the right spot its hard for defenders to get it-ask Becham or Trippier. All I wiuld say is that 9 times out of 10 Pope and Heaton would have saved that header. THats how good they were. Dyche used to talk about fine margins-the Goal Keepers in the PL have the ability to make master and sensational saves. Thats what distinguishes them

[Burnley1989]

Good cross, good header, good goal.
Hard to defend a cross like that.

Ey don’t say that, there must be blame

[fanzone]

Muric effort to save last night's header and the Cardiff one were border line p1$$ poor

[agreenwood]

On a slightly related point, their goal was scored after one of their players had been injured and they’d kicked it out for a throw in. The ref restarted with a drop ball rather than throw in.

Is that acceptable under the rules? I thought drop balls were for when the ref stopped the game.

[ClaretPete001]

Ultimately, as the picture at the top shows, we have six back when defending but little wide cover so as they attack down our flanks we get exposed. Very unlike a Dyche setup. We don’t really pull back or track back our wide midfielders.

West Brom exposed this very well.

And so did Cardiff and Blackpool. This is not a one off by any means...

As New Claret says above it has gone badly wrong way before it gets in the box.