Lightbulb moment

[Chobulous]

I am a 69 year old white male, someone that the more “progressive” thinkers on here would call gammon or boomer. I admit that I have at times shouted at the clouds. That said I have in my younger days led strikes, travelled across the country to join picket lines, been blacklisted by the Economic League ( I still have the letters from Paul Lashmar that first informed me about that, plus copies of the EL files)
Anyway like a lot of people I was quick to condemn Shamima Begum and agree that she shouldn’t be allowed back in the UK. It was her own fault she knew what she was doing. I thought that until someone on TV just said, “what is the difference between the way the grooming gangs in Rochdale operate, feeding on teenage girls. Exploiting their immature nature, and the way she was groomed to go to Syria?”
To me that makes perfect sense. My own personal lightbulb moment.

[HahaYeah]

Diversity is our strength and she's a possible future Mayor of London I reckon.

[claptrappers_union]

Its my opinion that she should be allowed back, she was 15 years old and taken advantage of. Obviously there would need to be intense surveillance surrounding her but she could be a useful resource for education to other young people who could find themselves in the same situation.

It's also my opinion, that after seeing interviews with her and listening to her speak she is unfortunately 'a bit thick' and she cant articulate herself appropriately for the public spotlight. It's because of this that she will never win over her critics and the media will chew her up and spit her out.

[arise_sir_charge]

Blacklisted by the Economic League, don’t they want you baby?

[ElectroClaret]

Diversity is our strength and she's a possible future Mayor of London I reckon.

Probably a stint on Love Island first.

[Zlatan]

To me that makes perfect sense. My own personal lightbulb moment.

takes courage to admit something like that, especially on this forum (sometimes). I welcome the revelation Chobulous and I wish others could do the same sometimes

[Rumbletonk]

I'm much less forgiving. Comes across as very arrogant in interviews which doesn't help here cause. I read a piece where a journalist spent some time with her and it was very damning about her and her attitude to the situation

[beddie]

I’m on the fence with this one.

[Volvoclaret]

Hey Pete, you should be blacklisted from everywhere for watching Jeremy Vine show.

[Lancasterclaret]

She is our problem as a British citizen, and she should face British justice as a British citizen, and if found guilty, serve time as a British citizen

Applause Cholobus, can't have been easy to see past all the horrible stuff she has done to realise that she has essentially been groomed (which isn't a defence of what she has done, but you are talking about a child at the time here)

[TheFamilyCat]

Its my opinion that she should be allowed back, she was 15 years old and taken advantage of. Obviously there would need to be intense surveillance surrounding her but she could be a useful resource for education to other young people who could find themselves in the same situation.

It's also my opinion, that after seeing interviews with her and listening to her speak she is unfortunately 'a bit thick' and she cant articulate herself appropriately for the public spotlight. It's because of this that she will never win over her critics and the media will chew her up and spit her out.

I'm not convinced about her CSE trafficking claims but I do I agree I think she's more useful to us as a resource for education than as a martyr for Islamic terror groups.

[Bosscat]

Hey Pete, you should be blacklisted from everywhere for watching Jeremy Vine show.

Should be a jail term for watching The Jeremy Vine Show

[SouthLondonexile]

She expressed some awful thoughts about the aid workers who were beheaded.
My thoughts are she was a child when she was groomed to become an ISIS wife. On balance I would allow her back , with restrictions such as curfew and electronic tagging, plus willingness to give a full security debrief on possible suspects to other atrocities.

[fatboy47]

I'm much less forgiving. Comes across as very arrogant in interviews which doesn't help here cause.

Case closed...get her on the ducking stool. Can't have these kids getting uppity, used or not used.

[Hapag Lloyd]

Plenty of room on the Isles of Scilly for her.

[evensteadiereddie]

And the spooks that made it possible for her to be groomed?

National heroes working hard to keep us safe, natch.

[KRBFC]

This country is full of terrorist sympathisers because they're scared to be deemed racist.

[Chobulous]

Hey Pete, you should be blacklisted from everywhere for watching Jeremy Vine show.

You must have been watching it yourself Carl to know where my lightbulb moment came from. Merry Xmas mate.

[fatboy47]

Plenty of room on the Isles of Scilly for her.

Sorry mate. This is Nimby central over here.

[Bosscat]

You must have been watching it yourself Carl to know where my lightbulb moment came from. Merry Xmas mate.

Booom tooosh

[evensteadiereddie]

Code: Select all

This country is full of terrorist sympathisers because they're scared to be deemed racist.

That makes sense!

[Rumbletonk]

Case closed...get her on the ducking stool. Can't have these kids getting uppity, used or not used.

You think I want her on a ducking stool but she was a bit uppity.

[Cleveleys_claret]

I'm much less forgiving. Comes across as very arrogant in interviews which doesn't help here cause. I read a piece where a journalist spent some time with her and it was very damning about her and her attitude to the situation

Wasn't this with The Sun journalist who said there had been texts between them and in his opinion he had become a close friend of hers, yet not having contact for 6 months plus between interviews/ meetings. I am not saying she should be allowed back or not, just I will not be basing my opinion on it on a Sun journalist meeting her a few times and basically grooming her by promising to return with Nike trainers and Under Armour leggings

[Rowls]

There's a difference in what is being offered.

The men running sex gangs are offering something that ostensibly desirable for wayward teenage girls - sex and drugs.

The offer from ISIS was somewhat different - join us and become part of the Islamic State where we murder non-believers.

There are similarities but there are also a few key differences.

[HahaYeah]

This country is full of terrorist sympathisers because they're scared to be deemed racist.

You watch, she will be leading the Conservative Party in a few years.

[Bosscat]

This country is full of terrorist sympathisers because they're scared to be deemed racist.

OK

[Rumbletonk]

Wasn't this with The Sun journalist who said there had been texts between them and in his opinion he had become a close friend of hers, yet not having contact for 6 months plus between interviews/ meetings. I am not saying she should be allowed back or not, just I will not be basing my opinion on it on a Sun journalist meeting her a few times and basically grooming her by promising to return with Nike trainers and Under Armour leggings

I'd be lying if I said I could remember but I think it was a link from MSN

[Woonderbah]

There seems to be a lot of information yet to be aired.. was it Javid who was the Home Office minister who revoked her citizenship.. he said at the time if we knew the facts that he knew then we would make the same decision.. maybe we should be told more about it

[Volvoclaret]

You must have been watching it yourself Carl to know where my lightbulb moment came from. Merry Xmas mate.

Never watch it. It was Bosscat who told me about it, honestly.

[evensteadiereddie]

You watch, she will be leading the Conservative Party in a few years.

Home Secretary more like.

[LeadBelly]

There's a difference in what is being offered.

The men running sex gangs are offering something that ostensibly desirable for wayward teenage girls - sex and drugs.

The offer from ISIS was somewhat different - join us and become part of the Islamic State where we murder non-believers.

There are similarities but there are also a few key differences.

Agreed. No comparison between Begum's "grooming" and what happened to hundreds of poor /vulnerable girls in Rochdale, Rotherham, etc, etc.
They were often from troubled backgrounds and (initially only) given some apparent affection/attention, booze, drugs whatever.
Begum was tempted by violence/blood-lust/murder etc and seemed not contrite (even recently) with having been involved in all that violence.

I reckon she hates this country and all non-believers still but wants the improved lifestyle she'll get here. Safer for me and all those I love if she never returns. It'll be decided by law in any event of course.

[Lancasterclaret]

So there is no comparison at all between grooming girls that are under age at all?

Good to know

[NRC]

She is our problem as a British citizen, and she should face British justice as a British citizen, and if found guilty, serve time as a British citizen

I don't think so.....and I'm applying that sentiment generally, not necessarily to this situation, but we can't have foreigners committing crimes in countries and then asking to be dealt with "back home"

[Taffy on the wing]

I'm much less forgiving. Comes across as very arrogant in interviews which doesn't help here cause. I read a piece where a journalist spent some time with her and it was very damning about her and her attitude to the situation

Was it in the Sun or Mail?....Express? Times?...

[Hipper]

I agree with you Chobulous about Begum. She has probably been unfairly condemned by most in the UK.

The problem is that on this and many other matters of a similar nature - migrants, LGBT rights etc. - I simply don't care enough to bother doing anything about it.

[Lancasterclaret]

I don't think so.....and I'm applying that sentiment generally, not necessarily to this situation, but we can't have foreigners committing crimes in countries and then asking to be dealt with "back home"

Well, I think our decision to revoke her citizenship just because her parents come from a different country is key here

She was born in the UK. That makes her our problem sadly

[Chobulous]

Agreed. No comparison between Begum's "grooming" and what happened to hundreds of poor /vulnerable girls in Rochdale, Rotherham, etc, etc.
They were often from troubled backgrounds and (initially only) given some apparent affection/attention, booze, drugs whatever.
Begum was tempted by violence/blood-lust/murder etc and seemed not contrite (even recently) with having been involved in all that violence.

I reckon she hates this country and all non-believers still but wants the improved lifestyle she'll get here. Safer for me and all those I love if she never returns. It'll be decided by law in any event of course.

It’s an utterly spurious argument to say there is no comparison between the different types of grooming. Grooming depends on the vulnerability of the young people involved, young girls and boys. Those doing the grooming take vulnerable impressionable children, most likely living what they see as mundane lives and offer them things that the children see as adult and exciting. In the case of the Rochdale kids, drugs, beer, cigarettes, whatever. You also have to factor in the environment in which these kids are brought up to understand what they would see as exciting. In the case of Begum, she was brought up in a Muslim background. The groomers work on that and present ISIS as Muslim freedom fighters taking part in a holy struggle. No-one will convince me that she went to Syria so she could be immediately married and impregnated by a much older man, nor that she wanted to take part in mass killings. She was probably enticed by what her immature teenage mind saw as something mysterious and exciting. Something that the groomers took full advantage of.

[HahaYeah]

Poor Shamima.When will her ordeal be over?

[daveisaclaret]

I don't think so.....and I'm applying that sentiment generally, not necessarily to this situation, but we can't have foreigners committing crimes in countries and then asking to be dealt with "back home"

There's absolutely no sensible definition by which you can call her a foreigner (if you're British).

[evensteadiereddie]

Apologies if I've confused another story with this one but isn't there some suggestion that the Canadian security forces, and therefore ours one assumes , were complicit in helping facilitate this kid's involvement in Syria ?

If this is even partly true, her treatment shames the so-called "civilised" society we're supposed to be living in. No doubt she'll continue to be made a scapegoat and the faceless ones will continue their activities as normal.

It's certainly a tricky one.

[Billy Balfour]

Our kid's neighbour got totally het up over this when Begum did her TV interview in the IDP camp. It was wall-to-wall coverage at the time on the 24/7 rolling news channels, and he would spend all day and most of the evening ranting at the TV. His wife thought he was going to have an apoplectic fit. When the news died down, he moved onto vaccines and Bill Gates. The flipping nutter.

As for myself. I'm conflicted about the whole thing and haven't really made my mind up one way or the other. But if she does regain her British citizenship, she'll become one of the most monitored people in the country. Whoever is in power at the time, sure won't want to take any risks. The political damage would be enormous.

[aggi]

I don't think so.....and I'm applying that sentiment generally, not necessarily to this situation, but we can't have foreigners committing crimes in countries and then asking to be dealt with "back home"

Indeed. Anyone with an Irish grandparent or parent who commits a crime abroad should be stripped of their UK citizenship and the UK should wash their hands of them.

[aggi]

Apologies if I've confused another story with this one but isn't there some suggestion that the Canadian security forces, and therefore ours one assumes , were complicit in helping facilitate this kid's involvement in Syria ?

If this is even partly true, her treatment shames the so-called "civilised" society we're supposed to be living in. No doubt she'll continue to be made a scapegoat and the faceless ones will continue their activities as normal.

It's certainly a tricky one.

Same story. The Canadian security forces are looking into it.

[Rowls]

Well, I think our decision to revoke her citizenship just because her parents come from a different country is key here

She was born in the UK. That makes her our problem sadly

That is not why her citizenship was revoked. Her citizenship was revoked because of her own actions. You're smart enough and you understand this point perfectly. Stop pretending otherwise.

"Born in the UK" = "our problem" makes as much sense as "Not born in the UK" = "Can't be British"

Revoking citizenship is not something done for the same reasons as climbing Everest.

[Lowbankclaret]

It’s a simple and straightforward No from me.

Law needs to be changed so it’s easier to remove your citizenship if you go to a country and join a terrorist organisation.

[Rowls]

There's absolutely no sensible definition by which you can call her a foreigner (if you're British).

There's a perfectly sensible definition: She does not hold British nationality. It's perfectly correct, as things stand.

The legal challenge should be heard properly but she's currently no more "British" than Boris Johnson is "American".

[Colburn_Claret]

She isn't confined to a large black cell, or being tortured. She is free to go most anywhere in the world, so it's hardly a punishment. She doesn't deserve to live in this country, after her actions, her choices.
There is a big difference between her and the kids in Rochdale, in Rochdale the girls were targeted by their groomers, in her case she sought ISIS out.
Life is full of things that we want, but can't have, we just have to put up with it, she needs to do likewise. I don't buy the crocodile tears, and of all the victims of ISIS, I can easily put millions of others ahead of her in the queue for sympathy.

[Lancasterclaret]

That is not why her citizenship was revoked. Her citizenship was revoked because of her own actions. You're smart enough and you understand this point perfectly. Stop pretending otherwise.

"Born in the UK" = "our problem" makes as much sense as "Not born in the UK" = "Can't be British"

Revoking citizenship is not something done for the same reasons as climbing Everest.

And you are smart enough to know that it wouldn't happen if she was Irish or Canadian

Physician

Heal thyself

[Rowls]

And you are smart enough to know that it wouldn't happen if she was Irish or Canadian

Physician

Heal thyself

We both know that it couldn't have happened had she not held dual citizenship but that is not the point and we both know it.

[Stanbill05]

I agree she is our problem and she should be returned. Unfortunately, the UK struggle to enforce similar rules that call for deportations of serious foreign criminals who then become a UK problem too, so there is little appetite to make it easy. It is going to take a Labour government to bring her back, which will then be massively weaponised against them.