BREAKING: Manchester United Available

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Chester Perry
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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:21 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:28 pm
Of course Garlick would have seen his value plummet as Burnley were relegated. If he couldn’t find buyers in the Premier how are investors going to pay the same for a Championship club?

You say Garlick would have re-invested… based on what? He was trying to offload the club before relegation, had he not sold what on earth makes you assume he would start the re-building process and re-invest? He wanted out not to have to wait another few seasons… and there was no guarantee he could summon another gene for manager.

You seem to forget by the end Garlick was invisible and clearly had decided his concern for Burnley Football Club had changed.

The takeover was not ideal, the debt was not ideal; but I do think your vision of life under Garlick is a little blinkered by your genuine concern about whether Pace et al takeover. Where as before Pace arrived I thought the club was in a real mess and was heading one way. Just differences of opinion, but there is no crystal ball or omnipotent view.
There is no doubt Garlick made mistakes, we all do, I wouldn't say I was a huge supporter of his either, same goes for Kilby (which will no doubt rile many on here).

Was he invisible at the end? I think that you will find it difficult for an executive Chairman (which is what he became when Dave Baldwin left the club and Neil Hart was promoted to Chief Exec - an appointment that was big mistake in my view) to be invisible in the running of the club

As for re-investment if the club had not been sold and had been relegated, i base that on everything I have described about the Garlick model. Plus, to sell the club it would be easier in the Premier League (and as we know that was difficult enough).

The debt is not a past tense issue by the way - it is very real and very expensive to support and here is the only debt I am referring to is that the club (not Pace) has with MSD (courtesy of Pace and Garlick the two key negotiators in the takeover).

It is interesting to note that all the while Pace and Co have borrowed all of this money (my estimate is £144.5m) free of charge and interest with no known time constraint for repayment, though there is a theoretical notion of recall. All the time the club is not only losing the ability to utilise that money for its own purposes but seeing any future repayment devalued by inflation (which we all know is at generational highs). In essence the club is paying interest to lend its owners money.

We believe Pace still has debt to the original sellers and wants to buy their remaining shares, history suggests that it is the club which will facilitating the £21m + £20m expenditures involved. If as speculated, this transpires to be funded by the club the total loans made by the club will then be in the £185m. Recently there has been suggestion that Pace is looking to refinance the MSD loan, it seems reasonable to believe that the additional costs associated with that will be placed on the club, as to what the funds generated will be used for is open to question, but we can only hope that it will be of benefit of the club not the owners.

At the time of the takeover. I said that the money being used to service the loan would have been better spent on hiring the appropriate executive talent to drive the club forward, particularly as the club had the funds to do finance revenue generating initiatives after 5 years of infrastructure investment that did not contribute to revenues. The club was indeed in potentially catastrophic mess, due to the breakdown in relations of its two key individuals, but it was and is unreasonable to lay that on just Garlick.

I agree there is no crystal ball or omnipotent view, which is why I pose questions about the future and share the details of what my opinions/interpretations of the past are based on. These have been discussed deeply by a number of people with the appropriate knowledge and skillset (which in many cases is greater than my own), which I have welcomed, and on appropriate occasion and with clear demonstration of their reasoning had led to a change in my understanding and point of view.
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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by IanMcL » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:32 pm

Garlick said the stockpile of cash was for rainy days and new stand. Later he said that the directors were middle wealth not billionaires and needed further investment.

To me, it indicates 'extra money coming into the existing, ringfenced, funds.

Then he sold and took all the money, from the club. No stand. No rainy day cover. Just profit for the outgoing, at the expense of the new people, who actually just borrowed all the money.

Whilst the new crowd are doing extremely well, how much better could it have been, if the directors had just taken what they were owed from their original stake and perhaps s little extra? Then the new folk would have had a solid start.

Supposedly, Garlick, Mr B etc came in to help the club, not themselves.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:41 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:46 pm
That’s an over complicated way of saying that Garlick stopped giving money to Dyche to buy players CP !!
I realise it’s more nuance than that but it’s hard to believe that the sale of the club was not part of his plan.

As for UEFA’s new model for football club sustainability I think we are best treating that with a very large pinch of salt. They can bring all the models in they want but that will not stop the likes of PSG, Real Madrid, Barca, Man City and many others getting round these rules and doing exactly what they want. There have been models and so called rules in place for years but what’s the worst that has happened to any club ? A one season transfer embargo ?
The cash pile virtually doubled in the last two years of Garlick's tenure - the vast majority of which was recorded in the summer of 2020 when the accounting year end had been extended and Premier League TV money advanced for the new season had been received - this was a first for our accounts. The following season was budgeted for with the anticipation of no fans in attendance and the possibility of further rebates to the TV companies and commercial partners.

It is a surprise to many just how clubs are charged each year with breaches of UEFA's financial rules, many clubs have paid fines and been prevented from participating from UEFA club competitions for one or more seasons having qualified through domestic competition.

As for the new rules they are to benefit the thousands of clubs that fall under UEFA's jurisdiction (and hundreds that participate in its club competitions each year not just the few who you mention.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:45 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:21 pm
There is no doubt Garlick made mistakes, we all do, I wouldn't say I was a huge supporter of his either, same goes for Kilby (which will no doubt rile many on here).

Was he invisible at the end? I think that you will find it difficult for an executive Chairman (which is what he became when Dave Baldwin left the club and Neil Hart was promoted to Chief Exec - an appointment that was big mistake in my view) to be invisible in the running of the club

As for re-investment if the club had not been sold and had been relegated, i base that on everything I have described about the Garlick model. Plus, to sell the club it would be easier in the Premier League (and as we know that was difficult enough).

The debt is not a past tense issue by the way - it is very real and very expensive to support and here is the only debt I am referring to is that the club (not Pace) has with MSD (courtesy of Pace and Garlick the two key negotiators in the takeover).

It is interesting to note that all the while Pace and Co have borrowed all of this money (my estimate is £144.5m) free of charge and interest with no known time constraint for repayment, though there is a theoretical notion of recall. All the time the club is not only losing the ability to utilise that money for its own purposes but seeing any future repayment devalued by inflation (which we all know is at generational highs). In essence the club is paying interest to lend its owners money.

We believe Pace still has debt to the original sellers and wants to buy their remaining shares, history suggests that it is the club which will facilitating the £21m + £20m expenditures involved. If as speculated, this transpires to be funded by the club the total loans made by the club will then be in the £185m. Recently there has been suggestion that Pace is looking to refinance the MSD loan, it seems reasonable to believe that the additional costs associated with that will be placed on the club, as to what the funds generated will be used for is open to question, but we can only hope that it will be of benefit of the club not the owners.

At the time of the takeover. I said that the money being used to service the loan would have been better spent on hiring the appropriate executive talent to drive the club forward, particularly as the club had the funds to do finance revenue generating initiatives after 5 years of infrastructure investment that did not contribute to revenues. The club was indeed in potentially catastrophic mess, due to the breakdown in relations of its two key individuals, but it was and is unreasonable to lay that on just Garlick.

I agree there is no crystal ball or omnipotent view, which is why I pose questions about the future and share the details of what my opinions/interpretations of the past are based on. These have been discussed deeply by a number of people with the appropriate knowledge and skillset (which in many cases is greater than my own), which I have welcomed, and on appropriate occasion and with clear demonstration of their reasoning had led to a change in my understanding and point of view.
I am certainly not questioning your devotion to digging out information, something I do not do as I spend my life researching and need no busman’s holiday on football economics. Neither do I lay everything at Garlick’s door, but the atmosphere at the club was turning (if not already) toxic and something had to give. I give credit to him that he chose the lesser of two evils… and it was his choice to do so. If there is someone out there who was willing to make a better offer Garlick could not find him/her.

Assets are worth only what someone was willing to pay, and it turned out there was no queue. As I said the takeover was far from ideal but I think carrying on as we were would have led to things quickly getting a lot worse. John Jackson bought the club and invested his own money… followed by a manager of Multipart… once assets start draining out of the club there is only one direction of travel. There just are not that many philanthropic billionaires looking to buy a small town club, whatever its history. Garlick saw he had to sell soon or we would enter a whirlpool he could not control, and a best chance to maintain Burnley’s place in the higher regions of the football tier and took it. We now have to live with it and hope things work out… if they don’t the cub will once again go onto the market to cover debts… no more than Garlick would have eventually done and with failure more imminent imo.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:50 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:32 pm
Garlick said the stockpile of cash was for rainy days and new stand. Later he said that the directors were middle wealth not billionaires and needed further investment.

To me, it indicates 'extra money coming into the existing, ringfenced, funds.

Then he sold and took all the money, from the club. No stand. No rainy day cover. Just profit for the outgoing, at the expense of the new people, who actually just borrowed all the money.

Whilst the new crowd are doing extremely well, how much better could it have been, if the directors had just taken what they were owed from their original stake and perhaps s little extra? Then the new folk would have had a solid start.

Supposedly, Garlick, Mr B etc came in to help the club, not themselves.
I have a certain sympathy with your thinking but on the point about the previous owners taking what they were owed -how do you put a value on that and then prevent the new owners from taking excessive (in your terms) profits on disposal. What you are suggesting opens up a classic flip for profit scenario

as for the last point, if you look at the financial straits the club was in when they took over and compare then to when they left that is exactly what they did - ALK's inability to deliver the additional investors they likely promised and certainly appeared to believe they could and would do is what has led to the levels of cash extraction we have witnessed. Not the sale itself, which would undoubtedly have led to some of club's cash being used in this way, just not on the scale we appear to be witnessing.
Last edited by Chester Perry on Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Zlatan » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:51 pm

any news on who is buying Man Utd...? I though thats what this thread was about

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:53 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:51 pm
any news on who is buying Man Utd...? I though thats what this thread was about
A Spanish billionaire
Apple
Mr Ineos

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:59 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:51 pm
any news on who is buying Man Utd...? I though thats what this thread was about
Clearly not that anyone has seen or it would presumably be on here. In the meantime the reasoned debate on here is a proper debate discussing points of view about Burnley football club, without petty name calling or entrenched positions… for once I welcome a thread where adults discuss the issues, sensibly.
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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Zlatan » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:04 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:59 pm
Clearly not that anyone has seen or it would presumably be on here. In the meantime the reasoned debate on here is a proper debate discussing points of view about Burnley football club, without petty name calling or entrenched positions… for once I welcome a thread where adults discuss the issues, sensibly.
not disputing that, but it seems to be the same people on the other threads that discuss the club finances repeating themselves ad infinium. I genuinely came back to the post to see if there was any genuine interest regarding the biggest club in the world and the potential sale.

I'll walk on by from now on

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:29 pm

Zlatan wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:04 pm
not disputing that, but it seems to be the same people on the other threads that discuss the club finances repeating themselves ad infinium. I genuinely came back to the post to see if there was any genuine interest regarding the biggest club in the world and the potential sale.

I'll walk on by from now on
To be fair, gossip about who is buying Man Utd in the same week as the sale was announced is even less interesting than my Wife's gossip about dirty Girty from number 30's big bloomers on the washing line. It's going to take months of jockeying for position before anyone knows who are the serious players. It's probably going to be a £5 billion deal.

It's likely not the Arabs so I'm guessing another American group, which means no trophies for Utd until they see the end of the English football pyramid and all the big clubs end up in a no-relegation league with a players wage cap.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Taffy on the wing » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:35 pm

Chester....i'm sure you mean well, but your obsession with finances is giving me a headache.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by dsr » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:37 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:45 pm
… once assets start draining out of the club there is only one direction of travel. ...
And that's exactly what ALK are hoping to disprove, isn't it. Assets have been draining out of the club at a phenomenal rate, and look like continuing to do so, and yet we're hoping to travel upwards.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by dsr » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:37 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:35 pm
Chester....i'm sure you mean well, but your obsession with finances is giving me a headache.
If only there was a way of not reading posts about finance ... :roll:

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Taffy on the wing » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:52 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:37 pm
If only there was a way of not reading posts about finance ... :roll:
I hadn't thought of that......thanks :D

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Chester Perry » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:54 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:35 pm
Chester....i'm sure you mean well, but your obsession with finances is giving me a headache.
perhaps surprisingly to some, I post much less in general these days than I once did and rarely get myself involved heavily in such discussions - it is just the reason for my posting was that the subject matter was so fresh in mind with it being directly related to an article that will be published in the next few days

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:10 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:54 pm
perhaps surprisingly to some, I post much less in general these days than I once did and rarely get myself involved heavily in such discussions - it is just the reason for my posting was that the subject matter was so fresh in mind with it being directly related to an article that will be published in the next few days
I find your work fascinating. I also believe in healthy discussion/disagreement. Really don’t understand people who intrench, insist on ‘winning’ or waste time trying to derail conversations they don’t like, and then fall out on a chat board. It seems I’m in the minority, but for what its worth I have these chats because I consider your opinion worth having, life is less frustrating with a sense of balance, I find.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by FeedTheArf » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:11 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:07 pm
From the 1890's through to 1981 it was impossible to do something like a leveraged buyout because there was an FA rule which stopped owners extracting more than 5% of the club's value - the fear back then was dividends and director pay. In 1981 the level was raised to 15% to allow for 'better, more professional management' as the FA vaguely put it.

Historically, while clubs could become limited companies, which our club did on 29th September 1897, their directors couldn’t be paid or distribute dividends of more than five per cent to shareholders. The FA imposed rules on clubs preventing them from operating as ‘normal’ commercial entities. These rules were codified as Rule 34

It all changed in 1983 when Irving Scholar at Tottenham persuaded the FA to effectively ignore rule 34 and allow him to float the club on the stock market by placing the club under a Holding Company - it was the Holding Company which was floated not the club.

If you look at all the big changes in football with relation to finances since 1960 and you will find Tottenham Hostspur front and centre - they are historically a very innovative club in that sense (just look how quickly they jumped onto the BoE's 0.5% cheap loans during Covid) The finance that they have on the stadium rebuild is the cheapest (possibly in Western History (circa 2.9%).

Our club has been allowed to follow this course of action because the monies extracted has so far been in the form of loans not payments - notionally at least the club is to be repaid the monies. The most likely way this is to happen is for Burnley FC Holdings Limited to issued dividends which can either be a paper exercise in relation to the related company loan repayments of a cash distribution which in VSL's instance (they are not the only shareholders) would like return to the club as a loan repayment to Burnley Football and Athletic Club Limited.

You will notice that it was the creation of the Holding Company in 2012 - formed to return Longside Properties Limited (created by John Sullivan and Barry Kilby before being sold to Lionbridge in 2009) which had bought Turf Morr Gym,Turf Moor and Gawthorpe between 2004 and 2006 to help deal with the ITV Digital fallout back under the group ownership utilising the funding vehicle Turf Moor Properties Ltd - that allows for such large dividends as are likely to be necessary for Pace and Co to make their loan repayments to the club.

As always it is the desperate need to get out of financial messes that football often finds itself in that these rules are slackened or just circumvented, the games authorities simply forgetting/ignoring that there were and remain very sound reasons for such rules in the first place.
Interesting bit of history that, thanks for posting!

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:20 pm

FeedTheArf wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:11 pm
Interesting bit of history that, thanks for posting!
Had not spotted that, quite agree.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Nonayforever » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:52 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:50 pm

as for the last point, if you look at the financial straits the club was in when they took over and compare then to when they left that is exactly what they did - ALK's inability to deliver the additional investors they likely promised and certainly appeared to believe they could and would do is what has led to the levels of cash extraction we have witnessed. Not the sale itself, which would undoubtedly have led to some of club's cash being used in this way, just not on the scale we appear to be witnessing.
I read virtually all Chesters posts and find them interesting, informative and balanced.
The above post I have found to be one of the most pertinent.
Alk ( Alan Pace) is obviously financially very astute but has made two extremely niave mistakes which will, in my view , be his downfall.
He thought that Dyche was going to be a miracle worker when he was in fact a dinosaur and most certainly dismissed ALKs talent spotting process. The second is trying to sell an investment which just isn't an investment.
Hiring Kompany was a masterstroke but it isn't possible to end well because of the lack of money.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:05 pm

Nonayforever wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:52 pm
I read virtually all Chesters posts and find them interesting, informative and balanced.
The above post I have found to be one of the most pertinent.
Alk ( Alan Pace) is obviously financially very astute but has made two extremely niave mistakes which will, in my view , be his downfall.
He thought that Dyche was going to be a miracle worker when he was in fact a dinosaur and most certainly dismissed ALKs talent spotting process. The second is trying to sell an investment which just isn't an investment.
Hiring Kompany was a masterstroke but it isn't possible to end well because of the lack of money.
I don’t think Pace neccessarily thought SD was a miracle worker, but he will have been told he needed him on board to keep the fans onside; the long contract was a PR stunt that backfired.

Vincent Kompany has a Degree in Business , and chose to put his reputation on the line working for Alan Pace; which suggests he disagrees with your estimation of what is possible.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Nonayforever » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:02 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:05 pm

Vincent Kompany has a Degree in Business , and chose to put his reputation on the line working for Alan Pace; which suggests he disagrees with your estimation of what is possible.
V K has indeed a degree in business, he is also 1000 times more knowledge in football than A Pace.
VK can walk away tomorrow or at the end of the season with his reputation enhanced.
A Pace has no chance ( at this moment in time ) of walking away with a profit.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:03 pm

Nonayforever wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:02 pm
V K has indeed a degree in business, he is also 1000 times more knowledge in football than A Pace.
VK can walk away tomorrow or at the end of the season with his reputation enhanced.
A Pace has no chance ( at this moment in time ) of walking away with a profit.
??? And

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:14 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:05 pm
I don’t think Pace neccessarily thought SD was a miracle worker, but he will have been told he needed him on board to keep the fans onside; the long contract was a PR stunt that backfired.

Vincent Kompany has a Degree in Business , and chose to put his reputation on the line working for Alan Pace; which suggests he disagrees with your estimation of what is possible.
The only reasonable interpretation of the facts is that MG and Co didn't fall out with Dyche to the extent the gossip insinuates. Dyche was very much part of the package to ALK; and MG and Co remained part of the board.

Either MG and co are extremely disingenuous or the gossip is greatly exaggerated.

Everyone gets lucky and in VK Alan Pace has got lucky. We've had about 6 successful managers out of about 25 since 1970 (there or thereabouts). By my reckoning one each for Lord, Teasdale and Garlick - and two for Kilby.

To go back back to the substance of the thread I see the Glazers as serious business people who are worth billions and own nearly seven million square metres of real estate in the US. They bought Utd and have rode the wave of PL expansion to turn it into a £5 billion dollar business and spent nearly a billion on playing assets in the last 5 years - more than anyone else.

Common sense would suggest that they would have been successful but they haven't been because nation states and oligarchs have also bought clubs and run them better than the Glazers. In fact, Klopp apart the American model hasn't been that successful even when they spend arguably because they are overly corporate and do not like real competition. The Glazers have simply not invested wisely in the product but it still hasn't affected the value of the business.

I also see the Venky's as serious players who run a billion dollar empire and have invested £200 million into Rovers and they haven't been successful.

I have no issue with ALK they have made a smart investment and will no doubt make money. My main issue is with those on here who misrepresent the reality of the risk to the club and the reality of ALK.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:25 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:14 pm
The only reasonable interpretation of the facts is that MG and Co didn't fall out with Dyche to the extent the gossip insinuates. Dyche was very much part of the package to ALK; and MG and Co remained part of the board.

Either MG and co are extremely disingenuous or the gossip is greatly exaggerated.

Everyone gets lucky and in VK Alan Pace has got lucky. We've had about 6 successful managers out of about 25 since 1970 (there or thereabouts). By my reckoning one each for Lord, Teasdale and Garlick - and two for Kilby.

To go back back to the substance of the thread I see the Glazers as serious business people who are worth billions and own nearly seven million square metres of real estate in the US. They bought Utd and have rode the wave of PL expansion to turn it into a £5 billion dollar business and spent nearly a billion on playing assets in the last 5 years - more than anyone else.

Common sense would suggest that they would have been successful but they haven't been because nation states and oligarchs have also bought clubs and run them better than the Glazers. In fact, Klopp apart the American model hasn't been that successful even when they spend arguably because they are overly corporate and do not like real competition. The Glazers have simply not invested wisely in the product but it still hasn't affected the value of the business.

I also see the Venky's as serious players who run a billion dollar empire and have invested £200 million into Rovers and they haven't been successful.

I have no issue with ALK they have made a smart investment and will no doubt make money. My main issue is with those on here who misrepresent the reality of the risk to the club and the reality of ALK.
Good and well thought out piece. I have never knowingly tried to misrepresent any risk. I have merely pointed out there were not many options and so far the board are exceeding my expectations by some distance. I was concerned when we were relegated, very. However, I feel there is not a lot Pace and Co. Could have done better since relegation and so, as success is built on the right people making the right decisions… I am a lot less concerned now than when the Turf was becoming toxic under SD/Garlick.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:31 pm

… but as for the relationship between SD and Garlick being overplayed. On that I cannot agree. The sulking and pouting alone was embarrassing to see, on both sides. I’m pretty sure the two will not be exchanging Christmas cards.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:34 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:25 pm
Good and well thought out piece. I have never knowingly tried to misrepresent any risk. I have merely pointed out there were not many options and so far the board are exceeding my expectations by some distance. I was concerned when we were relegated, very. However, I feel there is not a lot Pace and Co. Could have done better since relegation and so, as success is built on the right people making the right decisions… I am a lot less concerned now than when the Turf was becoming toxic under SD/Garlick.
I wasn't aiming that part at you albeit I quoted your text.

Not a lot they could do better in terms of the product on the pitch I agree.

In business terms they have greatly reduced the value of the club, diminished the playing assets, failed to secure any investment and the product Sports technology portfolio turned out to be greatly exaggerated.

The trade off is there for all to see but ultimately they will come up against the same problems as Dyche and Garlick as they try to compete in the PL.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:41 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:31 pm
… but as for the relationship between SD and Garlick being overplayed. On that I cannot agree. The sulking and pouting alone was embarrassing to see, on both sides. I’m pretty sure the two will not be exchanging Christmas cards.
I guess they won't be but generally in life relationships that go sour but where both parties walk away richer with enhanced reputations do not tend to bear the grudges of those that do neither.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:42 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:34 pm
I wasn't aiming that part at you albeit I quoted your text.

Not a lot they could do better in terms of the product on the pitch I agree.

In business terms they have greatly reduced the value of the club, diminished the playing assets, failed to secure any investment and the product Sports technology portfolio turned out to be greatly exaggerated.

The trade off is there for all to see but ultimately they will come up against the same problems as Dyche and Garlick as they try to compete in the PL.
I think we have to wait and so with that. SD went deeper and deeper as the season’s went on. When it looked like we were dropping a second time and the reigns were released we went on a run. Kompany knows the challenge ahead and will need to replace a few again come Summer. He will get what he thinks he needs or try to, then we will see how we’re going about it.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by IanMcL » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:23 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:54 pm
perhaps surprisingly to some, I post much less in general these days than I once did and rarely get myself involved heavily in such discussions - it is just the reason for my posting was that the subject matter was so fresh in mind with it being directly related to an article that will be published in the next few days
You were also answering points made by me and others and for that, I thank you for your research and understanding.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Taffy on the wing » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:45 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:50 pm
I have a certain sympathy with your thinking but on the point about the previous owners taking what they were owed -how do you put a value on that and then prevent the new owners from taking excessive (in your terms) profits on disposal. What you are suggesting opens up a classic flip for profit scenario

as for the last point, if you look at the financial straits the club was in when they took over and compare then to when they left that is exactly what they did - ALK's inability to deliver the additional investors they likely promised and certainly appeared to believe they could and would do is what has led to the levels of cash extraction we have witnessed. Not the sale itself, which would undoubtedly have led to some of club's cash being used in this way, just not on the scale we appear to be witnessing.
It never stops!…… maybe this new brand of football will entice new investors… has this crossed your mind?

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:37 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:42 pm
I think we have to wait and so with that. SD went deeper and deeper as the season’s went on. When it looked like we were dropping a second time and the reigns were released we went on a run. Kompany knows the challenge ahead and will need to replace a few again come Summer. He will get what he thinks he needs or try to, then we will see how we’re going about it.
Arguably, the best run of the season came from January to the end of Feb where we picked up 10 points from 7 games drawing with Arsenal and Man Utd and beating Spurs.

The next 5 games included Chelsea, Leicester and Man City. We lost to Brentford and beat Everton.

Of course, we then lost to Norwich and that was that....!

During MJs run we got 11 points from 8 games against weaker teams and only picked up one from the last 4 with two against a poor Aston Villa side.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:40 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:45 am
It never stops!…… maybe this new brand of football will entice new investors… has this crossed your mind?
No, because it's as a consequence of one individual and not intrinsic to the business model. VK could leave tomorrow and your £200 million may be reliant on the best available Chris Wilder etc....

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by RVclaret » Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:46 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:40 am
No, because it's as a consequence of one individual and not intrinsic to the business model. VK could leave tomorrow and your £200 million may be reliant on the best available Chris Wilder etc....
Disagree to an extent. It’s about having a club DNA. Brighton have replaced Potter with someone with a very similar philosophy and it’s very much ‘plug and play’ rather than reinventing the wheel. I feel this is the model ALK will want, being known as a team that plays positive, attractive football, that young players want to come to for development, top academies are happy to send their players to - worth adding that this profile of player are also the most valuable when they re-sell to bigger clubs.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:47 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:37 am
Arguably, the best run of the season came from January to the end of Feb where we picked up 10 points from 7 games drawing with Arsenal and Man Utd and beating Spurs.

The next 5 games included Chelsea, Leicester and Man City. We lost to Brentford and beat Everton.

Of course, we then lost to Norwich and that was that....!

During MJs run we got 11 points from 8 games against weaker teams and only picked up one from the last 4 with two against a poor Aston Villa side.
We did hit a purple patch, last season but that was not my reference. Missing Ben Mee in the run in was a huge miss. However our ability to still do it against the top sides only emphasised that the players were under motivated for the less glamorous sides. IMO (obviously).

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by ClaretPete001 » Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:37 am

RVclaret wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:46 am
Disagree to an extent. It’s about having a club DNA. Brighton have replaced Potter with someone with a very similar philosophy and it’s very much ‘plug and play’ rather than reinventing the wheel. I feel this is the model ALK will want, being known as a team that plays positive, attractive football, that young players want to come to for development, top academies are happy to send their players to - worth adding that this profile of player are also the most valuable when they re-sell to bigger clubs.
The difference is that Brighton have spent over £300 million in the last five years with a net investment of nearly £140 million whereas Burnley have spent £130 million with a net investment of minus £6 million. Brighton invest and sell at PL levels while we do not so something has to bridge the gap from a business perspective.

You can plug and play if you are competing financially in the PL but if you are not then you can't because as I point out above our success rate in managers over the years is around 1 in 4...!

If we want to operate in the market of developing top players then we should have invested in the academy but, regardless, is developing players feasible in the PL? And if we do not get back into the PL where is the value in the investment? The club will not be worth £200 million in the Championship and our organic revenue in the Championship will struggle to fund a competitive side. Remember, Rovers and Preston both have billionaire backers.

So, I don't see an intrinsic footballing business model as yet.

The investment model is to derive value from using the club's own cash to buy shares and to generate revenue by selling playing assets while maintaining quality in the short term. Doing this means they will have an asset worth far more than they have paid for it.

Over a longer period, I think it's unsustainable for any business to do the above but hopefully ALK will realise the value of their investment before they take one risk too many and the club can move on relatively unscathed.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:35 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:45 am
It never stops!…… maybe this new brand of football will entice new investors… has this crossed your mind?
Can you not just put him on your ignore list?

Instead of trying to block a very good information source to this messageboard.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Stayingup » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:10 pm

I wonder what Amanda Staveley and the Saudi owners of Newcastle are thinking now that two really big clubs are up.for sale? I suppose it depends on their ambitions and whether or not they want to make big profits. Because Manchester United and Liverpool.are world brands. Newcastle - and Man City for that matter are not - at this time and may never be.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Chester Perry » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:56 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:45 am
It never stops!…… maybe this new brand of football will entice new investors… has this crossed your mind?
There are many different things that cross my mind, a number of which relate to what you suggest, if I put them all down on here, I would never have time to do much of anything else.

I have been accused of writing posts far too long (on multiple occasions) in the past so now I tend to keep my individual posts more focussed on a narrower stream of thought and in regard to this particular thread they have been specifically in response to:
- a point that has been raised by another poster, to which I have added a more refined/detailed take (I hope);
- questions that have been asked of me directly as IanMcL notes above;
- items of history including the very recent past.

There is very little speculation on the future other than reference to a known:
- obligations/commitments;
- previously stated intentions by VSL/ALK;
- historical practice and precedent.

It may be of little interest to you, which is perfectly fine btw, it would be truly awful if we all saw things the same, but a key reason why London Clarets asked me to write and undertake the research I do is because they hold the belief that historically the fans, including themselves, have been ignorant/ill-informed of the financial issues (going all the way back to the late 70's and right through to the very recent past) that impact the way the club is able to operate. They believe that it is important to have these issues discussed and brought into the open so fans can have a clearer understanding of the workings of the game and their club. None of this stops the majority of their articles being about the on-field action and its protagonists past and present. They believe that with my contributions added to the mix it makes their magazine a more complete and rounded historical record of the club.

The London Clarets had tried to produce articles on this subject matter from within but struggled to find the resource and able and willing to do the necessary work, which is why they approached me via Claret Tony at the time of the takeover. The article that I produced then has led to numerous discussion points between the editors and myself and a continued desire from them to have further points discussed in greater detail. One of the things they like about my contributions is that they tend to offer a different perspective to those held by their other contributors and even the editors. The breadth of opinion and interpretation of events they (and apparently their readers, judging from the feedback received) believe enriches their magazine. Not unlike, when we have civilised open and frank discussions on this board

If you have managed to read this far thank you for your patience and hearing me out
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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:31 pm


Paul Waine
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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:58 pm

BBC: Manchester United: Finnish entrepreneur Thomas Zilliacus says he has made bid for club

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65054294

I doubt this guy's bid will be successful. Wants the fans to pay half the money.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:16 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:58 pm
BBC: Manchester United: Finnish entrepreneur Thomas Zilliacus says he has made bid for club

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65054294

I doubt this guy's bid will be successful. Wants the fans to pay half the money.
And he thinks they have 650 million fans who could copper up a fiver each.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by dandeclaret » Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:26 pm

Has Michael Knighton done his kick ups on the pitch yet?
This user liked this post: Bosscat

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:58 pm

dandeclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:26 pm
Has Michael Knighton done his kick ups on the pitch yet?
I'd been wondering why Jim Ratcliffe had Dave Brailsford with him when he visited ManU.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:12 am

https://twitter.com/MarkKleinmanSky/sta ... H4e4Q&s=19

An American firm is offering to buy a minority stake.

Predictably Gary Neville isn't up for this idea.

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Re: BREAKING: Manchester United Available

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:45 am

Man Utd takeover 'imminent as Glazers make decision https://mol.im/a/12187817 via https://dailym.ai/android

Some reports think the Sheikh's offer has been accepted.

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